Is sinless perfection possible for the believer before death?

[MB]

The law given to Adam was to Him alone. No one aftere the fall can duplicte that sin so that law is not more. The only law given after that to all mankind was the law of Moses.

I think you forget that everyman even those who have never read of the Law of Moses has the Law writen on their hearts. I don't believe there has ever been a time in history when men didn't know right from wrong. Certainly conscience is not possible with out knowing what is right and what is wrong. Cain other wise should not have been held responsible for the death of Able but he was.
MB

 

[Don]

I'm greatly confused as to what the discussion here is trying to cover.

I believe I've read where FAL said that if we have an occasional mistake, that's one thing; but to continually repeat that sin is another. I'd like to hear if FAL actually espouses that we can remain sinless while in this weak flesh.

I would point out the rich young ruler, who stated that he had followed all the commandments from his youth--to which Jesus did not deny. But it was his attachment to his material things, not a problem with keeping the law, that kept him from following Jesus.

I would also point out that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for a sin that wasn't identified in writing until Moses, but was obviously known; thus, the only thing the writing down of the law did was put what was already known in print.

 

[preacher4truth]

I would point out the rich young ruler, who stated that he had followed all the commandments from his youth--to which Jesus did not deny. But it was his attachment to his material things, not a problem with keeping the law, that kept him from following Jesus...

His attachment to material things was breaking the Law. Thus he wasn't keeping it. It's called being covetous.

The rich young ruler was in fact covetous, thus he was not keeping the law. He was deceived, Jesus exposed him, that he in fact was not keeping the law as he thought. May I suggest he had also lied? If he knew the Law, he knew that covetousness was breaking the Law.

So, in other words Jesus did deny that he kept the commandments.

I like what I heard Erwin Lutzer say concerning passages like this, and the passage in Joshua (which he referred to) where self deception was at it's height in one saying they would and could keep all that God commanded, Lutzer simply stated how believing this is self-deception.

 

[freeatlast]

I'm greatly confused as to what the discussion here is trying to cover.

I believe I've read where FAL said that if we have an occasional mistake, that's one thing; but to continually repeat that sin is another. I'd like to hear if FAL actually espouses that we can remain sinless while in this weak flesh.

I would point out the rich young ruler, who stated that he had followed all the commandments from his youth--to which Jesus did not deny. But it was his attachment to his material things, not a problem with keeping the law, that kept him from following Jesus.

I would also point out that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for a sin that wasn't identified in writing until Moses, but was obviously known; thus, the only thing the writing down of the law did was put what was already known in print.

Read post #14 this thread.

 

[Don]

Since you didn't actually come out and say it (and I read through this entire thread, including that post, before I made my comments), the implication from that post is that yes, you believe we can remain sinless.

 

[Don]

His attachment to material things was breaking the Law. Thus he wasn't keeping it. It's called being covetous.

The rich young ruler was in fact covetous, thus he was not keeping the law. He was deceived, Jesus exposed him, that he in fact was not keeping the law as he thought. May I suggest he had also lied? If he knew the Law, he knew that covetousness was breaking the Law.

So, in other words Jesus did deny that he kept the commandments.

I like what I heard Erwin Lutzer say concerning passages like this, and the passage in Joshua (which he referred to) where self deception was at it's height in one saying they would and could keep all that God commanded, Lutzer simply stated how believing this is self-deception.

Excellent point. Thanks for the correction.

 

[freeatlast]

Since you didn't actually come out and say it (and I read through this entire thread, including that post, before I made my comments), the implication from that post is that yes, you believe we can remain sinless.

There are two possibilities here. One is you did not read carefully what I said in that post, or you did not really read the post. It is not that I believe we can I know we can and I gave an example, by any reasonable assumption, of someone who did.

 

[Don]

There are two possibilities here. One is you did not read carefully what I said in that post, or you did not really read the post. It is not that I believe we can I know we can and I gave an example, by any reasonable assumption, of someone who did.

The thief on the cross was your example; someone who lived for perhaps three hours after his recognition of Christ, and faced no temptations in that short period. How about an example of someone who lived 30 years afterwards, faced temptations daily, and thus, is a more applicable example to the folks who are posting here?

 

[agedman]

There are two possibilities here. One is you did not read carefully what I said in that post, or you did not really read the post. It is not that I believe we can I know we can and I gave an example, by any reasonable assumption, of someone who did.

I have read at least three times through the posts on this thread.

No where do you show you are currently or name someone who lived or lives without sin.

You may think you know someone who did, and if you know someone who lived sinless, please name them so that we all might validate the proof of what you claim.

Please. Tell us the name of ONE person who lived until death sinless.

You have stated that you haven't attained such in your own life, but hope to. Certainly there is an example of one that did that you can show us all.

Perhaps you look outside the faith of the true believer for an example such as to Buddha or Confucius. I have heard some claim that those two lived "sinless." I am convinced they and those who follow that way of teaching and who make such a claim are frauds and liars.

 

[JesusFan]

I have read at least three times through the posts on this thread.

No where do you show you are currently or name someone who lived or lives without sin.

You may think you know someone who did, and if you know someone who lived sinless, please name them so that we all might validate the proof of what you claim.

Please. Tell us the name of ONE person who lived until death sinless.

You have stated that you haven't attained such in your own life, but hope to. Certainly there is an example of one that did that you can show us all.

Perhaps you look outside the faith of the true believer for an example such as to Buddha or Confucius. I have heard some claim that those two lived "sinless." I am convinced they and those who follow that way of teaching and who make such a claim are frauds and liars.

i know ONE person in history who was able to keep the Law perfectly, as God intended it to be...

NOT Fal/Jesusfan etc

JESUS...period...

he could because he was/is GOD...

ANY one else here able to claim that?

 

[preacher4truth]

Brother Don,

Thanks for the kind response. The truth there is something of all worthiness for us to ponder.

- Peace

 

[agedman]

i know ONE person in history who was able to keep the Law perfectly, as God intended it to be...

NOT Fal/Jesusfan etc

JESUS...period...

he could because he was/is GOD...

ANY one else here able to claim that?

Ah,

but you are wrong.

For Jesus lived until the Cross sinless, but HE took the sins of the world upon Himself. He became full of sin for us. ( 2 Corinthians 5:21 )

Therefore, Jesus had sin. Why else would His Father turn his back on him in His greatest hour of pain and suffering.

OH my, to know that the Father never turns His back on us in our greatest hour of pain and suffering because of Christ. Christ has experience suffering and painful rejection that no believer will ever experience. He was all (totally) alone so that we will never be.

 

[freeatlast]

The thief on the cross was your example; someone who lived for perhaps three hours after his recognition of Christ, and faced no temptations in that short period. How about an example of someone who lived 30 years afterwards, faced temptations daily, and thus, is a more applicable example to the folks who are posting here?

Wait a minute. Are you not one of those who says it is impossible? Are you first ready to admit you were wrong and that it is possible?

 

[Winman]

Wait a minute. Are you not one of those who says it is impossible?

You are grasping at straws and showing your desperation to be correct now.

 

[freeatlast]

I have read at least three times through the posts on this thread.

No where do you show you are currently or name someone who lived or lives without sin.

You may think you know someone who did, and if you know someone who lived sinless, please name them so that we all might validate the proof of what you claim.

Please. Tell us the name of ONE person who lived until death sinless.

You have stated that you haven't attained such in your own life, but hope to. Certainly there is an example of one that did that you can show us all.

Perhaps you look outside the faith of the true believer for an example such as to Buddha or Confucius. I have heard some claim that those two lived "sinless." I am convinced they and those who follow that way of teaching and who make such a claim are frauds and liars.

I would point you back to #14 and yes the bible tells us how.

 

[agedman]

I would point you back to #14 and yes the bible tells us how.

But, you never gave us an example of one who lived and died in the sinless condition. Neither have you shown by Scripture how this is accomplished.

The one example (Christ) you used, was shown to be inaccurate for though sinless He took upon Himself the world's sins.

We are still waiting for a valid example.

Please, don't think we are all picking on you, because I really do want you to be able to demonstrate what you believe is true. I think that would be wonderfully outstanding.

 

[Don]

Wait a minute. Are you not one of those who says it is impossible? Are you first ready to admit you were wrong and that it is possible?

Don't twist things; answer the question. If you can provide an actual example of someone that, like each and every one of us, faces temptation daily, but is someone who has never sinned since accepting Christ, then please, by all means, let us know who it is/was.

 

[Don]

Brother Don,

Thanks for the kind response. The truth there is something of all worthiness for us to ponder.

- Peace

This doesn't mean you and I won't bump heads about other topics.... :tongue3:

But I hope it does show others that if I'm wrong about something, and can be shown the proof of my error, that I'll easily admit my error. (that wasn't intended towards you, P4T)

 

[freeatlast]

Don't twist things; answer the question. If you can provide an actual example of someone that, like each and every one of us, faces temptation daily, but is someone who has never sinned since accepting Christ, then please, by all means, let us know who it is/was.

You mean your temptations are gretaer then his was? Correct? What greater temptation is there for a person who is being tortured to curse his accusers, doubt God or what ever. You said it is impossible I gave an example. Are you willing to admit you are wrong?

 

[convicted1]

Was there a scenario given in the OP?

Not that I remember.

I had my wires crossed. It was in another thread in another forum. Thanks for the rod of correction.