Is sinless perfection possible for the believer before death?

[Robert Snow]

I, too, do not believe in sinless perfection. But I also don't believe that a true blood bought christian will stay on a six month drunk spell either, which was the scenario that was stated in the OP.

Is that the cut off point, six months? How about 5.5 months or maybe 5 months and 27 days?

This thing is the Christian who does this knows it is wrong and will long to be right with God. The lost many may want deliverance from alcohol, but not desire God.

 

[righteousdude2]

The following is from an exhasutive study on sin at: http://bible.org/article/doctrine-sin

The word that is used most frequently is hamartia, missing the mark. It is the most comprehensive term for explaining sin. Paul used the verb hamartano when he wrote, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). God has a high and holy standard of what is right, and so long as man follows the Divine standard he will see himself as he truly exists in God’s eyes. The flat statement of the Almighty is that all men have fallen far short of God’s required standard. It is the popular and common practice of men to create their own standards; however, God has established His standard of perfection for entry into Heaven, and all men have “missed the mark” as an archer’s arrow would fall to the ground because it fell short of its target.

Let no man ever think that he comes anywhere near the standard set by God. God has demanded absolute perfection, and no matter how one measures himself, he falls far short. Some men measure themselves on the basis of human intelligence, some by educational attainment, some by financial success, some by cultural environment, and others by religious performance. But God refuses to accept man on any of these grounds. He has established His perfect standard, and by that standard He measures every man. The Divine verdict in every instance has been the same, “You have come short, you have missed the mark.” And when the best of men have done their best, our Lord would challenge each with the words, “Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?” (Matthew 6:27). However much the difference that is lacking, no man can by himself raise himself to meet God’s moral standard, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Yes, all without exception, for, says God, “We have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin” (Romans 3:9); that is, both Jew and Gentile have missed the mark.

The Book of Judges contains the record of 700 men in the Tribe of Benjamin, all left-handed, and “everyone could sling stones at an hair breadth, and not miss” (Judges 20:16). The word translated “miss” is chata, rendered “sin” in Exodus 20:20 and so translated about 200 times in our English Bible. The left-handed marksmen in the Tribe of Benjamin rarely if ever fell short of their target. They were known as men of the sling, with a deadly accuracy which never missed the bull’s eye. On the other hand, the Bible contains no record of a man, save Jesus Christ, who never missed the moral standard of Almighty God

Every man has failed to do what he ought, therefore the term is fittingly applied to sins of omission. Every man can be charged with the sin of the Pharisees whom our Lord charged with leaving undone the things they ought to have done (Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42). The Bible says, “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin” (James 4:17). You see, sinning is not limited to the doing and saying things that are wrong, but it extends to our failure to do what in God’s standard is perfectly right, missing that mark, falling short of the honor and worth of Almighty God.

This first word, then, namely harmartia, which means “missing the mark,” suggests inability, the absolute inability of man to measure up to God’s moral standard. Actually God has placed the standard so high so that none can ever reach it. You see, God, because of Who He is, could not stoop to the human standards of man’s sinful heart. Frankly, I believe God set the target out of man’s reach by a deliberate act. And why do I believe this? I believe it because I know the pride of my own heart, and I am but one member of a fallen and depraved race. Now suppose that we were able to meet the demands of God. Those who made it would never cease to boast about how they did make it, and the unfortunate one who could not make it because of inability or some special inferiority on his own part would be lost forever. But God is not so cruel and compassionless. He tells us that we “all have sinned,” all have missed the mark, and that if we confess to this fact, admitting that we have sinned, He will forgive and cleanse our sin and guarantee salvation in time and for eternity.

Another word that is used for sin is anomia, translated in the Authorized Version “iniquity” and in the Revised Version “lawlessness.” Peter used the adjective anomos (lawless) when referring to the men of Sodom and Gomorrha and Lot’s association with them, when he wrote, “For that righteous man (Lot) dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds” (II Peter 2:8). The thought here is not merely that of doing what is unlawful according to the standard of men, but of a flagrant defiance of the known law of God.

This explanation of sin is given clearly by the Apostle John in the words, “sin is the transgression of the law” (I John 3:4). The Greek New Testament has the word anomia, and simply reads, “sin is lawlessness.” It is a condition of being without law, contrary to law, the violation of law, the rejection of law, the refusal to submit to law. Ryrie says in his Biblical Theology of the New Testament, “It is the negation of that which is inherent in the very character of God Himself. Sin, then, is that which is contrary to God Himself.” Any attitude or action that holds the law of God in contempt is sin. Jesus said that the approaching end of the age will be marked by the increase of lawlessness--“iniquity shall abound” (Matthew 24:12).

This paragraph would be great for FAL to read and comment on! How easily we deceive ourselves and our friends! While we impress others with our righteousness, we are lawless in God’s eyes. Our Lord said, “Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity” (Matthew 23:28). Our age will come to an end with the appearing of “that man of sin” (lawlessness) (II Thessalonians 2:3). Man by nature has a lawless heart, but we Christians can rejoice in Jesus Christ “Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity. . . .” (Titus 2:14) .

In concluding this brief explanation of sin, let us look for a moment at the statement which brings to a close Romans chapter 14, namely, “. . . for whatsoever is not of faith is sin” (Romans 14:23). Both the philosophy and morality of this statement are alike sound and rational. The man who does not decide his actions on the basis of that which he knows is right is deserving of condemnation, because he did not act according to his conviction. The word “damned” in this verse is not final judgment as to the loss of salvation, but the judgment which results in the believer’s loss of reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Romans 14:23 is an excellent guideline for young Christians and all Christians who are faced with a decision when confronted with questionable amusements, dress or other practices. The decision of a growing or mature Christian is based upon his love for an obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ. The actions and attitudes which do not proceed from faith in Christ are accounted as sin. If one has doubts about a certain matter, he should abstain from it, but if he goes on to do it anyhow, he acts out of faith, and such an action is sin. We commenced the Christian life by faith, and so we should proceed by faith. “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord (by faith), so walk ye in Him” (Colossians 2:6). All our motives and actions should be prompted by our faith-union with Christ, “For we walk by faith, not by sight” (II Corinthians 5:7).

Are you wavering between two decisions, to eat or not to eat, to drink or not to drink, to go to a certain amusement or not to go, to say certain things or not say them, to conform to a style of dress or not to conform? If you do something despite strong scruples and convictions against that thing, this is sin which you must judge as sin, for surely God will judge it as sin. What is not done by faith cannot be done to the glory of God. “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God” (I Corinthians 10:31). Even though there is no law which says we may not do a certain thing, we may be fully persuaded that the thing is not right, and consequently by doing it we will offend God. In such a case we sin against God and self when we do it. This I understand to be the meaning of the statement, “whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”

There is also one more very good study on sin at: http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=560

I'm sure there will be those who totally and vehemently disagree, but, this is where I stand on sin.

In closing - I am not perfect, just forgiven! In other words, throughout my walk on the "narrow, difficult path" there will be times that either by commission or ommission, I will need to humble myself before the Lord and repent! (1 John 1:6-10 the Amplified Bible) I am so grateful that I am not expected to be perfect. The problem with us if the flesh will rear its ugly head from time to time, and Christ has presented himself as the propitiation for my sin, and that means all of my sin.

 

[Don]

You mean your temptations are gretaer then his was? Correct? What greater temptation is there for a person who is being tortured to curse his accusers, doubt God or what ever. You said it is impossible I gave an example. Are you willing to admit you are wrong?

This presumes that the thief was a believer before being hung on the cross, doesn't it? Or that even after making his statement and being blessed by Jesus, that he lived long enough to be tortured and face temptation. Although I could also imagine that, after being assured by Jesus that I would be in heaven with Him that day, I'd gladly give up the ghost. Can't imagine anything, in that situation, that would give me more comfort.

Have you actually given us an example of someone who faced temptations and remained sinless? The Bible doesn't say that about the thief on the cross; or, for that matter, anyone else in the scriptures.

 

[convicted1]

Is that the cut off point, six months? How about 5.5 months or maybe 5 months and 27 days?

This thing is the Christian who does this knows it is wrong and will long to be right with God. The lost many may want deliverance from alcohol, but not desire God.

You gotta understand, Brother Robert, a tree is known by it's fruit. If someone who is claiming Christ as Lord and Saviour, is on a six month "sot", or is hitting the strip clubs, or anything they shouldn't be doing, how is that the good fruit from a good tree?? It isn't. I know we will sin, and I am not dismissing that, but if we are who we claim we are(His via the blood), we will repent of this, and it won't take us very long to do so. When I get riled up in the flesh, I feel the Spirit "whoaing" me, letting me know I have went too far. I then will immediately ask Him for His forgiveness, and He does forgive me.

 

[DHK]

The law given to Adam was to Him alone. No one aftere the fall can duplicte that sin so that law is not more. The only law given after that to all mankind was the law of Moses.

Immediately after that Cain and Abel were commanded to bring their offerings to God. Cain disobeyed God in the right type of offering. He disobeyed the command of God. He disobeyed it again when he killed Abel. Even John in his first epistle calls Cain a murder, "and we know a murderer does not have eternal life." His application was to those that hate their brethren.
God looked upon the evil; the breaking of his commandments, and sent the Flood.
After the Flood he set a system of government up.
In it he instituted a law for murder:

Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. (Genesis 9:6)
--This is law. And until very recently man followed it to the letter.

 

[freeatlast]

This presumes that the thief was a believer before being hung on the cross, doesn't it? Or that even after making his statement and being blessed by Jesus, that he lived long enough to be tortured and face temptation. Although I could also imagine that, after being assured by Jesus that I would be in heaven with Him that day, I'd gladly give up the ghost. Can't imagine anything, in that situation, that would give me more comfort.

Have you actually given us an example of someone who faced temptations and remained sinless? The Bible doesn't say that about the thief on the cross; or, for that matter, anyone else in the scriptures.

You claimed it is impossible. I gave an example it has happened. Now you are trying to wiggle out of the facts just like you do with the military debates and make excuses for them. Are you now willing to admit you are wrong on this issue as everyone sees you are?

 

[freeatlast]

Immediately after that Cain and Abel were commanded to bring their offerings to God. Cain disobeyed God in the right type of offering. He disobeyed the command of God. He disobeyed it again when he killed Abel. Even John in his first epistle calls Cain a murder, "and we know a murderer does not have eternal life." His application was to those that hate their brethren.
God looked upon the evil; the breaking of his commandments, and sent the Flood.
After the Flood he set a system of government up.
In it he instituted a law for murder:

Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. (Genesis 9:6)
--This is law. And until very recently man followed it to the letter.

There was a time when the law entered. That means there was a time when there was no law. The passage is speaking of the written law.

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

So to the OP the answer is yes a person can live with no sin after salvation and some have as I have given the example.

 

[DHK]

There was a time when the law entered. That means there was a time when there was no law. The passage is speaking of the written law.

Did God tell you that?
Context says otherwise:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:12-13)
--The one man that sinned was Adam; Paul is not contradicting himself. He is not saying in verse 12 that Adam sinned, and then turning around and saying: "OOPS FAL, I made a mistake, Adam didn't sin after all, for their wasn't any law then."
--He didn't say that.
--Neither did he put the word "written" in verse 13; you did!
Sin was in the world. Why? Perhaps it was Satan and his fallen angels.
But God had not yet put law into effect. Sin is not imputed when there is no law. But when he gave that command to Adam, then that law was imputed and the entire human race came under a curse. Look at the context. It is speaking of the sin of Adam in verse 12.

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

The first part of this verse teaches us that the law shows us our sin, and that quite clearly. We all have broken the Ten Commandments whether we want to admit it or not.
The second part of the verse is true. Where sin abounds so does grace. But the Romans were using that "truth" as an excuse for antinomianism, and thus the reaction of Paul in Romans 6:1,2

So to the OP the answer is yes a person can live with no sin after salvation and some have as I have given the example.

I have not seen a viable example given by you anywhere on this thread. Where is it? In deathbed salvations? Nope, not good enough! You will have to do better than that.

This is the post that you haven't answered yet.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1766249&postcount=17

Try your hand at that instead of a trite and somewhat rude answer.

 

[agedman]

There was a time when the law entered. That means there was a time when there was no law. The passage is speaking of the written law.

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

So to the OP the answer is yes a person can live with no sin after salvation and some have as I have given the example.

The Scriptures tell of the payment of sin as being death.

If then there is no sin does that mean there is no death? No

Would Adam have continued to live eternally had he not displeased God and been removed from the garden? No

If death only happens because of sin, then why was there the tree of life in the garden? Because God put it there and we are not told why.

If folks from Adam to Moses did not have the law, and in your view no sin, is there another cause of death beside sin? Yes

Do you agree with the answers to those questions?

 

[12strings]

You claimed it is impossible. I gave an example it has happened. Now you are trying to wiggle out of the facts just like you do with the military debates and make excuses for them. Are you now willing to admit you are wrong on this issue as everyone sees you are?

Your problem is that you cannot prove the thief on the cross did not sin in those 30 minutes. We can't prove he did. You can only say "here is a man that I believe might not have sinned."

 

[freeatlast]

Did God tell you that?
Context says otherwise:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:12-13)
--The one man that sinned was Adam; Paul is not contradicting himself. He is not saying in verse 12 that Adam sinned, and then turning around and saying: "OOPS FAL, I made a mistake, Adam didn't sin after all, for their wasn't any law then."
--He didn't say that.
--Neither did he put the word "written" in verse 13; you did!
Sin was in the world. Why? Perhaps it was Satan and his fallen angels.
But God had not yet put law into effect. Sin is not imputed when there is no law. But when he gave that command to Adam, then that law was imputed and the entire human race came under a curse. Look at the context. It is speaking of the sin of Adam in verse 12.

The first part of this verse teaches us that the law shows us our sin, and that quite clearly. We all have broken the Ten Commandments whether we want to admit it or not.
The second part of the verse is true. Where sin abounds so does grace. But the Romans were using that "truth" as an excuse for antinomianism, and thus the reaction of Paul in Romans 6:1,2

I have not seen a viable example given by you anywhere on this thread. Where is it? In deathbed salvations? Nope, not good enough! You will have to do better than that.

This is the post that you haven't answered yet.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1766249&postcount=17

Try your hand at that instead of a trite and somewhat rude answer.

I would point you to post 14

 

[freeatlast]

The Scriptures tell of the payment of sin as being death.

If then there is no sin does that mean there is no death? No

Would Adam have continued to live eternally had he not displeased God and been removed from the garden? No

If death only happens because of sin, then why was there the tree of life in the garden? Because God put it there and we are not told why.

If folks from Adam to Moses did not have the law, and in your view no sin, is there another cause of death beside sin? Yes

Do you agree with the answers to those questions?

1) Not clear on what you mean. Prior to or after falls?

2) that is your assumption. I believe he would not have ever died because of the tree of life.

3) To live forever

4) I never said people never sinned between Adam and Moses. Those are your words not mine.

 

[freeatlast]

Your problem is that you cannot prove the thief on the cross did not sin in those 30 minutes. We can't prove he did. You can only say "here is a man that I believe might not have sinned."

I point you to post #14

 

[Don]

You claimed it is impossible. I gave an example it has happened. Now you are trying to wiggle out of the facts just like you do with the military debates and make excuses for them. Are you now willing to admit you are wrong on this issue as everyone sees you are?

First off, let's examine your claim about the military debates. Your claim there was that many policemen who commit police brutality are prior military. To this day, you've only managed to provide one reference to a campus policeman being prior military. You've never been able to prove your claim of many. Further, many references were provided to you disproving your claim; yet you've never admitted that your claim was wrong. So you have no leg to stand on when it comes to asking anyone else to admit they're wrong about anything. You were also asked if you could support you claim of many others who have lived sinless lives; you have yet to provide any proof of that claim, but are suddenly fixated on having someone else admit they're wrong.

Second, let's look at your claim of proof here. You claim that the thief on the cross is an example of someone who lived a sinless life. Yet, scripture is silent in the area you claim; thus, you've injected a subject into scripture that scripture doesn't necessarily support, and that's called adding to the Word, and is warned against in scripture. You also can't provide us how long that thief's "sinless" life lasted; so I provided some conjecture about alternative viewpoints, which is equivalent to your conjecture about his "sinless" life; but when I do it, you want to call it "wiggling." That's usually known as having a double-standard, and/or being double-minded, which is also warned against in scripture.

You presume to say that "everyone" can see that I'm wrong; whereas, I believe everyone can see that you're wrong. Tell you what: let's let everyone speak for themselves and tell us which--or both--of us are wrong.

 

[MB]

I point you to post #14

I've given an honest try to live a sinnless life. It was an unbelievable struggle. And just when I was sure I had made it through the day with out sin I found self pride. As if I had some sucess LOL. I did learn that if I could live a sinnless life I'd be so full of myself that My Savior would be very ashamed of me.
Sin lives in our flesh and therefore I believe inorder to live sinnless the rest of my life. I have to be so concentrated on being sinless, I wouldn't have time to serve my Lord. Or else die right after I had just received forgiveness.
I try to stay focused on my Savior. I have placed all my problems on Him. I don't trust anyone but God. I have no trust in my self. Just as Paul did in Romans 7 I have realized that it is no more myself that sins but the sin that dwells in my flesh. Yet I still am training my flesh. It's just that my flesh is rebellious.
MB

 

[freeatlast]

Let me ask all those who believes that it is impossible for a believer to not sin a question.
What is the absolute maximum time that a believer can go without sinning?

 

[Don]

Let me ask all those who believes that it is impossible for a believer to not sin a question.
What is the absolute maximum time that a believer can go without sinning?

Depends on the believer, and what YOU mean by sinning.

 

[freeatlast]

Depends on the believer, and what YOU mean by sinning.

:laugh::laugh:

 

[Robert Snow]

When I get riled up in the flesh, I feel the Spirit "whoaing" me, letting me know I have went too far. I then will immediately ask Him for His forgiveness, and He does forgive me.

Good for you, but what if one time you don't immediately ask for forgiveness, does that mean that you were never saved? Or, does God force you to repent?

If you ever do resist asking for forgiveness you may find that it is easier to sin the next time. Eventually you will be in a position I have been talking about. I hope you never see just how far sin can take a Christian who is stubborn and is resistant to God.

 

[12strings]

Let me ask all those who believes that it is impossible for a believer to not sin a question.
What is the absolute maximum time that a believer can go without sinning?

I don't know if anyone else will agree with this or not, but if you take verses like:

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your strength... Love your Neighbor as yourself." (Matt. 22:37-39)

"Do ALL to the glory of God." (1 Cor. 10:31)

I believe these verses show us that the world is veritably drowning in sin. They help us clarify how a non-christian is INCAPABLE of pleasing God...
...And I believe even we as Christians do not perfectly obey these verses ANY of the time. I do not do everything I do out of pure motivation to love god wholly and do it completely for his glory. So yes, I believe that I sin nearly every moment of every day... Perhaps sleep might be the only time I am not actively motivated by impure motives. (perhaps this is part of why sleep is refreshing to us...we are given a few hours for which we do not have anything to regret...but that is a side point)

Should this make me happy? No. Should I go ahead and indulge in any sin I want so that grace may increase? No.