Is God Able To regenerate sinners before their faith in Christ?

[JesusFan]

Convicted1

You are as confused as Winman is! The natural man is not the physical body. Think on this!

Its the Flesh/sin nature/principle of Sin etc

The spiriual aspect of man that refuses to obey or even come to God, as that aspect died in the fall of Adam!

 

[JesusFan]

There in is where your doctrine has it's short comings. In like the Catholic's you'd rather believe old dead men than the truth of the gospel. There is no power in what men have to say. Only God's words has the real power and truth. Be God dependant not man dependant.
MB

well, IF you are 'God dependent"

what is the basis of one getting saved...

there will or the Will of God?

 

[convicted1]

Convicted1

You are as confused as Winman is! The natural man is not the physical body. Think on this!

Well, you have the natural man, and the spiritual man. How hard is that to figger out?

BTW, the ORBs you grew up going to, were they the Union assoc., Bethel after the Union split, or Mud River?

 

[convicted1]

Look familiar Convicted 1?

"4. We believe in the impotency or inability of men to recover themselves out of the state they are in;"

Why yes I do. That's in our Articles of Faith. I happen to agree with this, too. Until God draws us we can do nothing. After He calls, it is us who either says "Yea Lord", or "Nay Lord". God will not force Himself on us, or our decision we make.

 

[OldRegular]

Its the Flesh/sin nature/principle of Sin etc

The spiriual aspect of man that refuses to obey or even come to God, as that aspect died in the fall of Adam!

I assume you are conceding that the "natural man" is not the physical body!

 

[OldRegular]

Why yes I do. That's in our Articles of Faith. I happen to agree with this, too. Until God draws us we can do nothing. After He calls, it is us who either says "Yea Lord", or "Nay Lord". God will not force Himself on us, or our decision we make.

You are correct! God does not force Himself on us. That is the mistake that many make about the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace. God the Holy Spirit, in the act of regeneration, changes our will/nature so that we are no longer what we were. He then gives us the gift of Faith through which we respond to the call of the Holy Spirit. The Gospel Call then becomes the Effectual Call!


John Dagg [Manual of Theology,page 277] comments on the natural man’s inability regarding salvation, as follows:

“In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect.”

Dagg further writes on the impact of regeneration[page 277ff]:

“So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed”

2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Continuing Dagg notes:

“The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”

“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”

Jihn Dagg [ page 322], again comment on the response of the natural man to the Gospel:

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

Now consider what your Articles of Faith state: We believe in the impotency or inability of men to recover themselves out of the state they are in

 

[convicted1]

You are correct! God does not force Himself on us. That is the mistake that many make about the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace. God the Holy Spirit, in the act of regeneration, changes our will/nature so that we are no longer what we were. He then gives us the gift of Faith through which we respond to the call of the Holy Spirit. The Gospel Call then becomes the Effectual Call!


John Dagg [Manual of Theology,page 277] comments on the natural man’s inability regarding salvation, as follows:

“In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect.”

Dagg further writes on the impact of regeneration[page 277ff]:

“So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed”

2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Continuing Dagg notes:

“The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”

“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”

Jihn Dagg [ page 322], again comment on the response of the natural man to the Gospel:

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

Now consider what your Articles of Faith state: We believe in the impotency or inability of men to recover themselves out of the state they are in

Well, Jesus went as far as to say in John six, Except ye eat of My flesh, and drink of My blood, ye have NO LIFE in you." There is NO LIFE outside of being in Christ. One is not regenerated(new birth) outside of Jesus Christ.

 

[convicted1]

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:


Believing brings life, not life brings living.

 

[JesusFan]

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:


Believing brings life, not life brings living.

think have to look at the will of Man in this discussion!

being fallen, sinful beings, we cannot exercise 'free will" to make the choice to receive jesus, as we are in our verynatures at emnity with God!

that is what is enabled by HS, the actual means to make the 'free will" decision for Christ.....

cals say that those whom have been enabled are elct only, MUST believe, as it is Will of God...
arms says all are enabled once again by God, the will of man decides who gets saved....

 

[JesusFan]

I assume you are conceding that the "natural man" is not the physical body!

always did, think question was to Convicted1!

 

[convicted1]

think have to look at the will of Man in this discussion!

being fallen, sinful beings, we cannot exercise 'free will" to make the choice to receive jesus, as we are in our verynatures at emnity with God!

that is what is enabled by HS, the actual means to make the 'free will" decision for Christ.....

cals say that those whom have been enabled are elct only, MUST believe, as it is Will of God...
arms says all are enabled once again by God, the will of man decides who gets saved....

The Spirit is what draws us to Christ, and our belief places us in Christ. When Jesus saves anyone, the Spirit comes in and directs us into all truths. The Spirit draws, and then God places the Spirit in us after we choose to believe.

 

[JesusFan]

The Spirit is what draws us to Christ, and our belief places us in Christ. When Jesus saves anyone, the Spirit comes in and directs us into all truths. The Spirit draws, and then God places the Spirit in us after we choose to believe.

Only problem with this is that "none of us do good, none are rightousnes, all of us have departed from our Shepherd!"

 

[convicted1]

Only problem with this is that "none of us do good, none are rightousnes, all of us have departed from our Shepherd!"

Well, to depart from the Shepherd(capital "S"), means we must have been His to start with. I knew you were coming our way....:laugh: :wavey:

 

[convicted1]

Only problem with this is that "none of us do good, none are rightousnes, all of us have departed from our Shepherd!"

Now, show me with scripture, that we have any life outside of Jesus Christ.

 

[Winman]

Now, show me with scripture, that we have any life outside of Jesus Christ.

You are correct Willis, no one is regenerated, no one is spiritually alive until they have believed on Jesus and had their sins washed away. Until your sins are removed you are dead in your trespasses and sins.

1 Cor 2:14 is not speaking of the gospel or salvation, it is speaking about the "things of the Spirit of God".

1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

It is true that natural man does not know "the things" of God. On his own, man will not even conceive these things, he is not able.

But that does not mean man cannot be taught by God. Man can understand the gospel and believe it, and when he does he will receive the Spirit that he is able to understand the deeper things of God.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Once again, man receives the Spirit by hearing God's word and believeing it. This is also shown in Ephesians 1:13.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This order is always shown in scripture. First, a man hears the word of God which enable him to believe. You cannot believe what you do not know. Next, a man believes the word of God, and lastly, when a man believes the word of God he receives the Spirit.

Now go back to 1 Cor 2:12

1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

So we see these Corinthians had already received the Spirit. Therefore we know they had heard the gospel and believed according to Galatians 3:2 and Ephesians 1:13. So, these "things of the Spirit of God" are not the gospel, these are deeper things which a man does need the Spirit to understand.

 

[convicted1]

You are correct Willis, no one is regenerated, no one is spiritually alive until they have believed on Jesus and had their sins washed away. Until your sins are removed you are dead in your trespasses and sins.

1 Cor 2:14 is not speaking of the gospel or salvation, it is speaking about the "things of the Spirit of God".

1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

It is true that natural man does not know "the things" of God. On his own, man will not even conceive these things, he is not able.

But that does not mean man cannot be taught by God. Man can understand the gospel and believe it, and when he does he will receive the Spirit that he is able to understand the deeper things of God.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Once again, man receives the Spirit by hearing God's word and believeing it. This is also shown in Ephesians 1:13.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This order is always shown in scripture. First, a man hears the word of God which enable him to believe. You cannot believe what you do not know. Next, a man believes the word of God, and lastly, when a man believes the word of God he receives the Spirit.

Now go back to 1 Cor 2:12

1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

So we see these Corinthians had already received the Spirit. Therefore we know they had heard the gospel and believed according to Galatians 3:2 and Ephesians 1:13. So, these "things of the Spirit of God" are not the gospel, these are deeper things which a man does need the Spirit to understand.

This'll preach!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[OldRegular]

Well, you have the natural man, and the spiritual man. How hard is that to figger out?

BTW, the ORBs you grew up going to, were they the Union assoc., Bethel after the Union split, or Mud River?

Union Association. My uncle was moderator of the Union for many years.

 

[OldRegular]

The Spirit is what draws us to Christ, and our belief places us in Christ. When Jesus saves anyone, the Spirit comes in and directs us into all truths. The Spirit draws, and then God places the Spirit in us after we choose to believe.

After we choose to believe??

Tell me convicted1 why do some choose to believe while others do not. Why are some able to save themselves while others are not. How does the "we choose to believe" square with: We believe in the impotency or inability of men to recover themselves out of the state they are in.?

 

[convicted1]

After we choose to believe??

Tell me convicted1 why do some choose to believe while others do not. Why are some able to save themselves while others are not. How does the "we choose to believe" square with: We believe in the impotency or inability of men to recover themselves out of the state they are in.?

Easy as pie!! Because they love darkness rather than Light.

 

[convicted1]

Union Association. My uncle was moderator of the Union for many years.

I used to belong to the Salem church in the Sardis, but I am now at Little Martha in the Indian Bottom(the one by itself), and not in correspondence with the others. We were organized on the first saturday in May, 2009(May 2nd I think). We got our arm from the Little Jewell church in Westwood, Ky(ouskirts of Ashland). Oddly enough, when LJ came to the IB, they left Union.