Is God Able To regenerate sinners before their faith in Christ?

[Martin Marprelate]

Okay Brother, how long can a baby live outside of the mother's womb, i.e. atmosphere? What I am driving at is this: How long can a new born baby live outside the womb after this "new birth"?

That's what is getting pushed around in here. Y'all are saying that regeneration(new birth) precedes being born again/born from above(new life). How long does it take a new born baby to come alive after it leaves the mother's birthing canal? Is it seconds, minutes, days, months, or years?

I have no idea whatsoever what you are driving at here. Theology I do; obstetrics I don't. Please explain.

Steve

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Context, son, context. If the soul is dead the same way a lifeless corpse is, then that person is "flat-lined". The soul is what keeps our physical body alive, you know, heart beating, lungs inhaling/exhaling, brain doing it's work, etc. The physical body dies when the soul leaves, but the soul itself is never dead(or better yet, non-functioning).

You are talking about the soul; I am talking about Spiritual death. The Scriptures are perfectly clear. 'But God......even when we were dead in tespasses made us alive....' This is not waffling about the soul; The Holy Spirit is saying that we were dead. Now since we are still, at the time of writing, physically alive, He must mean something else tha physical death. What He means is spiritual death. We cannot make the least effort to come to Christ unless He first moves in our lives. But when He does so move, it is truly life from the dead!

'Lord, I was blind! I could not see
In Thy marred visage any grace;
BUt now the beauty of Thy face
In radiant vision dawns on me.

Lord, I was deaf! I could not hear
The thrilling music of Thy voice;
But now I hear The and rejoice,
And all Thine uttered words are dear.

Lord, I was dumb! I could not speak
The grace and glory of Thy name;
But now, as touched with living flame,
My lips Thine eager praises wake.

Lord, I was dead! I could not stir
My lifeless soul to come to Thee;
But now, since Thou hast quickened me,
I rise from sin's dark sepulchre.

Lord, Thou hast made the blind to see;
the deaf to hear, the dumb to speak,
The dead to live; and lo! I brake
The chains of my captivity.' (William Tidd Matson)

Here is something I read this evening that will prove my point of the dead hearing:

John 5:28,29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus' voice is so powerful, that the bodies of those that have been dead for centuries will hear His voice when He calls them out of the grave. So if the lifeless corpse/pile of dust, can hear His voice, then the unregenerated soul can as well.

That is quite correct, hyper-preterists notwithstanding. But these dead bodies will not make a decision as to whether to rise; they will hear the trumpet call of God and the voice of Christ, and they will rise.
BTW, do you see the vital difference between John 5:25 and vs 28-9?

Question for you? Is there life outside of Jesus Christ?

"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.' This is perfectly true, but it is equally true that no one will come to Christ unless God the Father has chosen him before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4; 2Thes 2:13a etc.) and the Holy Spirit brings him spiritual life (1Cor 12:3; 2Thes 2:13b etc.). Salvation is a Trinitarian affair.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

AIC....
The calvinist worships the God of the bible.

Well sure.

You arent worshipping Alla, or Buddah, or the false Jesus's of the the JW's or Mormans, etc etc.

In that respect you are certainly worshipping the true Jesus.
But much of your doctrine is horribly, terribly FALSE.

His wicked denial of God cloaked under his supposed study is a direct attack upon the true and living God.

You just slandered him again. He is not denying Almighty God. He is denying...the erroneous teachings of CALVINISM.

In other words......this writer and several people on BB have declared this same wicked idea.......it comes down to this.....they say...I could not worship a God who does what you say he does.....If God has elected some...I could not and would not worship such a God.

That is because they, like me, cannot possibly hold to teachings that we believe are clearly exceedingly false doctrine.

that means they invent their own little god who does what they want, rather than the biblical God who has revealed Himself.

Nooo...it means that we are holding to to the truth..as opposed to error..regarding this topic, as we have been taught from Gods scriptures.

The fact that you did not even read the article you yourself linked, shows a low regard for truth.

This is really odd. I read enough to see that it was good and profitable. I posted it for you to read, Iconoclast, because you ASKED for some material.

Then when I give you material, you blast me for giving it to you!

So.....again....I thought you were trying, but this article is a ruse to avoid answering the other post s where I asked you to back your statements with scripture.....

And I gave it to you....and now you are mad because I gave it to you! :tonofbricks:

How can you expect to taken seriously in a discussion if you do not even read your own link?

Becauase the material was FOR YOU! Not me! I know that I already agree with him.

 

[convicted1]

I have no idea whatsoever what you are driving at here. Theology I do; obstetrics I don't. Please explain.

Steve

New birth= regeneration, correct? New birth= life, correct?


The new birth is proof that there is life, on which I think we both agree with so far. Now in the Calvinist model, the new life/regeneration gives life, making one able to respond to God. Then after hearing and responding to the Gospel call, then are the elect placed in Christ. Therefore, in this model, life can, and does, exist outside of being in Christ. Yessirree, Pelagius(sp?) would sure be proud......

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast...



Well sure.

You arent worshipping Alla, or Buddah, or the false Jesus's of the the JW's or Mormans, etc etc.

In that respect you are certainly worshipping the true Jesus.
But much of your doctrine is horribly, terribly FALSE.





You just slandered him again. He is not denying Almighty God. He is denying...the erroneous teachings of CALVINISM.



That is because they, like me, cannot possibly hold to teachings that we believe are clearly exceedingly false doctrine.



Nooo...it means that we are holding to to the truth..as opposed to error..regarding this topic, as we have been taught from Gods scriptures.




This is really odd. I read enough to see that it was good and profitable. I posted it for you to read, Iconoclast, because you ASKED for some material.

Then when I give you material, you blast me for giving it to you!




And I gave it to you....and now you are mad because I gave it to you! :tonofbricks:




Becauase the material was FOR YOU! Not me! I know that I already agree with him.

AIC,
I believe you are very sincere and a nice person. If you look, I thanked you for trying to post the link for me to consider.......then I started to look at the link.....I understand what you were trying to do,and am thankful you made the effort.
Aic.....my concern is that in reading such false ideas of this false teacher will harm your soul.

All I will say for now is.....never say.....you would not worship the God calvinists speak of......because any who make this statement are in danger as I described to you....

Aic...I am sure you remember that many times I spoke against your wrong idea on Jesus lighting everyman everywhere...the way you described it.

I never said to you....I could never worship such a God !
If I was wrong on this verse and you were correct, that would be fine with me.

AIC.....if you are wrong about calvinism.....and it is just as they say....you would want to worship that true and living God that they teach about...would'nt you...like Paul did:

9I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.

11And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

12Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,

13At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.

14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

16But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

 

[convicted1]

You are talking about the soul; I am talking about Spiritual death. The Scriptures are perfectly clear. 'But God......even when we were dead in tespasses made us alive....' This is not waffling about the soul; The Holy Spirit is saying that we were dead. Now since we are still, at the time of writing, physically alive, He must mean something else tha physical death. What He means is spiritual death. We cannot make the least effort to come to Christ unless He first moves in our lives. But when He does so move, it is truly life from the dead!

Well, you must believe man is three part being, body, soul, and spirit, whereas I see man as two part, body and soul. It is the soul that is seperated from God due to sinning. The soul is spiritually dead(seperated from God), and needs to be restored back to life(being back in communion with God). Until Jesus saves the soul by applying His blood, that soul is still seperated, and not in Christ. Only once the soul is cleansed via the blood, then it is placed in Christ.

'Lord, I was blind! I could not see
In Thy marred visage any grace;
BUt now the beauty of Thy face
In radiant vision dawns on me.

Lord, I was deaf! I could not hear
The thrilling music of Thy voice;
But now I hear The and rejoice,
And all Thine uttered words are dear.

Lord, I was dumb! I could not speak
The grace and glory of Thy name;
But now, as touched with living flame,
My lips Thine eager praises wake.

Lord, I was dead! I could not stir
My lifeless soul to come to Thee;
But now, since Thou hast quickened me,
I rise from sin's dark sepulchre.

Lord, Thou hast made the blind to see;
the deaf to hear, the dumb to speak,
The dead to live; and lo! I brake
The chains of my captivity.' (William Tidd Matson)

Wonderful looking song! I have never heard it, but if sung by the right person, I would imagine that it would sound wonderful!! However, this song is talking about someone who has been saved and placed in Christ.

That is quite correct, hyper-preterists notwithstanding. But these dead bodies will not make a decision as to whether to rise; they will hear the trumpet call of God and the voice of Christ, and they will rise.
BTW, do you see the vital difference between John 5:25 and vs 28-9?

The point being, is that those dead bodies could hear Jesus' call, eventhough hoards of them have laid under the ground for centuries. When Jesus speaks, the lost will hear. Unfortunately, most will not come.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.' This is perfectly true, but it is equally true that no one will come to Christ unless God the Father has chosen him before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4; 2Thes 2:13a etc.) and the Holy Spirit brings him spiritual life (1Cor 12:3; 2Thes 2:13b etc.). Salvation is a Trinitarian affair.

I appreciate these wonderful verses, but answer this with a "yes" or "no" please? Is there life outside of Jesus Christ?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

Thank you for your response.

Where I live its now 2:00 am, and I have to get to get some sleep.

I will respond to your most recent post sometime tomorow.

God bless

AIC

 

[convicted1]

"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.' This is perfectly true, but it is equally true that no one will come to Christ unless God the Father has chosen him before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4; 2Thes 2:13a etc.) and the Holy Spirit brings him spiritual life (1Cor 12:3; 2Thes 2:13b etc.). Salvation is a Trinitarian affair.

I want to address this last paragraph by itself in this post, okay?

Now, let us take a gander at the verses you have posted in this post of yours.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Apostle Paul stated here that we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, correct? So, if you take this the way you are purporting it to be, then we(the elect) were never apart from Him, even before we were created. Therefore, He did not die for us. To be in Christ is just that, in Christ. You can't be chosen in Christ and be a sinner. Jesus is where election starts and ends. We who are saved are grafted into His election.

2 Thes. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


Correct. God has chosen to save those who believe in His Son Jesus. This plan was from the beginning, to save believers, and not unbelievers. This is done by sanctification(setting aside) of the Spirit.


1 Cor. 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


Correct again. When the Lord was drawing me, He was telling me what I must do in order to be saved. I could not do this on my own, but by His guidance. When He saved my soul, and the Holy Ghost took His abode in my life, I could then state emphatically that Jesus IS Lord!!

 

[agedman]

I think that C. H. Spurgeon and I may have a difference in the meaning of regeneration.

Perhaps that is also the case generating of some argument in this thread.

I use the term regeneration as the initial awakening to the need of Christ that He places in and before all who will eventually become a believer. This is not a self generated awakening, for before that implantation, there is no lasting thought or desire but to excuse, blame, and argue.

The unbeliever is a fallen Adam. When God confronted the fallen there was no Godly sorrow but excusing, blaming, and arguing about who is at fault. And just as the Holy Spirit brings reproving of sin, of righteousness, and judgement, upon the world of our day, God brought the fallen the same in the day of Eden.

In my own salvation, I cannot claim that I immediately came to Christ when the first illumination of that need was made within me. But come to Christ I did, and the compelling process would not allow my old fleshly self to prevent the process from gaining completion of birth.

I don't particularly disagree with those who would determine that regeneration as a singular spark that ignites or breathes the new nature into a person at the point of salvation. Perhaps it is a matter of determining the definition of the term regeneration. Perhaps I am assigning too much to the word.

Rather than a one time event, my view of regeneration is as a continuum. Certainly, it has a beginning as does any conception. And there is a birthing process be it the birth coming out of a mother's natural water, or the new birth of the spirit. I think that continuum is a part of (or hint at) what Paul was indicating when he spoke, "but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day." 2 Corinthians 4:16

We know that a child lives because they cry at the birthing. Was the child alive before the audible cry? When was that child made alive? Is not the believer in a similar state?

The believer may not be aware that God has begun a work in them, but that doesn't mean it is any less profitable. When that believer is "born" they will cry out in belief.

It is God that determines the matter - He is the Sovereign.

 

[convicted1]

I think that C. H. Spurgeon and I may have a difference in the meaning of regeneration.

Perhaps that is also the case generating of some argument in this thread.

I use the term regeneration as the initial awakening to the need of Christ that He places in and before all who will eventually become a believer. This is not a self generated awakening, for before that implantation, there is no lasting thought or desire but to excuse, blame, and argue.

The unbeliever is a fallen Adam. When God confronted the fallen there was no Godly sorrow but excusing, blaming, and arguing about who is at fault. And just as the Holy Spirit brings reproving of sin, of righteousness, and judgement, upon the world of our day, God brought the fallen the same in the day of Eden.

In my own salvation, I cannot claim that I immediately came to Christ when the first illumination of that need was made within me. But come to Christ I did, and the compelling process would not allow my old fleshly self to prevent the process from gaining completion of birth.

I don't particularly disagree with those who would determine that regeneration as a singular spark that ignites or breathes the new nature into a person at the point of salvation. Perhaps it is a matter of determining the definition of the term regeneration. Perhaps I am assigning too much to the word.

Rather than a one time event, my view of regeneration is as a continuum. Certainly, it has a beginning as does any conception. And there is a birthing process be it the birth coming out of a mother's natural water, or the new birth of the spirit. I think that continuum is a part of (or hint at) what Paul was indicating when he spoke, "but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day." 2 Corinthians 4:16

We know that a child lives because they cry at the birthing. Was the child alive before the audible cry? When was that child made alive? Is not the believer in a similar state?

The believer may not be aware that God has begun a work in them, but that doesn't mean it is any less profitable. When that believer is "born" they will cry out in belief.

It is God that determines the matter - He is the Sovereign.

Brother, I truly appreciate the "tone" and gracefulness of this post here!! :thumbs:

However, the DoG'ers on here state emphatically that regeneration is a "new birth", and there is no "new birth" w/o life. They also state emphatically that this "new birth" makes one able to repsond in faith to God, and then, placed in Christ after placing their faith in Him(iow, pre faith regeneration). This is stating "spiritual life" outside of Christ!! This reeks of "Pelagianism"........

 

[agedman]

Brother, I truly appreciate the "tone" and gracefulness of this post here!! :thumbs:

However, the DoG'ers on here state emphatically that regeneration is a "new birth", and there is no "new birth" w/o life. They also state emphatically that this "new birth" makes one able to repsond in faith to God, and then, placed in Christ after placing their faith in Him(iow, pre faith regeneration). This is stating "spiritual life" outside of Christ!! This reeks of "Pelagianism"........

Thank you,

I consider that it is God who is creating the "new life" (regeneration) within the unbeliever - that it is not "outside of Christ."

I also hold that one cannot express true faith in Christ until they are made capable by being regenerated.


That this process is multifaceted. Beginning with the conception by God, the "new life" not only creates an awareness of the absolute depravity of sin but also brings Godly sorrow. Like the umbilical cord tethered developing new life, it takes the first breaths through the cleansing by the washing and renewing of the mind by the Word so that the person is in their "right mind." Stretching and exercising within God ordained space, this new life further expresses that installed new will (spirit) which immediately sets up pitched battle against the old nature (spirit),... and I could go on. Eventually, in God's timing, the "new birth" takes place.

This process is totally of God, by God, with God's divine authority and none other. Therefore, it is "in Christ."

I further hold that the expression(s) of belief is reflective and not active. That is it reflects what has already taken place, not active in the starting or initiating the process.

The believer isn't saved by what they say, it is what has already taken place within that causes them to state their belief. The baby states it is alive by its cry. The cry doesn't make the baby alive. So it is with the babe in Christ.

For instance, "Lord, remember me when thou come into thy kingdom" was not a plea of accepting Christ, but a plea reflecting the belief already having taken place.

Pelagianistic thinking would place all the work done in coming to Christ as man's free choice (volition), and that when man makes that choice then God responds by creating new life and sending the comforter to comfort.


If anyone had both history and face to face understanding of God, it had to be Adam. Yet, when Adam fell, he had no desire for God, but he blamed, excused, and argued. He was sorry, but that wasn't Godly sorrow.

That is the condition that all men without Christ find themselves. Without the work of Christ taking place in their life, they will have no Godly sorrow and no salvation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

New birth= regeneration, correct? New birth= life, correct?

Well actually, not correct, any more than conception = natural birth. The Spirit's gracious influence brings regeneration, but faith in Christ is the final act of New Birth.

The new birth is proof that there is life, on which I think we both agree with so far. Now in the Calvinist model, the new life/regeneration gives life, making one able to respond to God. Then after hearing and responding to the Gospel call, then are the elect placed in Christ. Therefore, in this model, life can, and does, exist outside of being in Christ. Yessirree, Pelagius(sp?) would sure be proud......

OK then brother. You answer my question. Is there life outside of the Holy Spirit? I have a feeling that you may be falling for the ancient error of Sabelianism.

Steve

 

[convicted1]

Thank you,

You're welcome....

I consider that it is God who is creating the "new life" (regeneration) within the unbeliever - that it is not "outside of Christ."

I agree that it is God who gives the "new life", but this "new life" comes when we are placed in Christ, and not given this "new life", and then placed in Christ. Jesus stated He was the way, the truth, and the life.

I also hold that one cannot express true faith in Christ until they are made capable by being regenerated.

Well, here we're back to "square one". You're stating life outside of Jesus Christ is possible. No one is in Christ until Jesus saves them via His shed blood, given the wedding garment, and then placed in Christ. One is brought to life by Jesus Christ, not given life and then placed in Him at a later date. Salvation and regeneration happenly at the same time. One doesn't go around being regenerated, and not be in Christ at the same time. Regeneration is God giving that sinner a "new birth/life" by placing them in Christ at the point of salvation. One doesn't have salvation w/o being regenerated, and one is not regenerated w/o salvation; iow, they go "hand-in-hand".

That this process is multifaceted in that the conception by God not only creates an awareness of the absolute depravity of sin but also brings Godly sorrow, takes the first breaths through the cleansing by the washing and renewing of the mind by the Word so that the person is in their "right mind," and further by installing a new will (spirit) which immediately sets up war against the old nature (spirit),... and I could go on.

Salvation and regeneration aren't "processes" that happen over time, but are a one time event, where Jesus' shed blood cleanses the soul of the sinner, making them righteous in the sight of God, places them in Christ, to walk in the newness of life. These two terms could be used to mean the same thing, too(salvation and regeneration). God comes to us as sinners, shows us our lost condition, and the result if we reject Him. At this time, we are still outside of Christ, because His blood wasn't placed in us to cleanse our soul. When we humble ourselves under His merciful hand, the blood cleanses us, and we are then placed in Christ.

This process is totally of God, by God, with God's divine authority and none other. Therefore, it is "in Christ."

Nope. We are not in Christ until we are saved. There is no life outside of Jesus Christ. In the Calvinist model, one can be regenerated, yet still be a sinner. There is no way a sinner can be "in Christ" at any point in time.

I further hold that the expression(s) of belief is reflective and not active. That is it reflects what has already taken place, not active in the starting or initiating the process.

Well, a sinner can not express any true belief unless they have been saved. No one can truly say Jesus is Lord w/o the Spirit. No sinner has the Spirit within them, btw.

The believer isn't saved by what they say, it is what has already taken place within that causes them to state their belief. The baby states it is alive by its cry. The cry doesn't make the baby alive. So it is with the babe in Christ.

Agreed. However, you can't believe Jesus is Lord w/o the Spirit, and a sinner does not have the Spirit within them at anytime.

For instance, "Lord, remember me when thou come into thy kingdom" was not a plea of accepting Christ, but a plea reflecting the belief already having taken place.

Agreed. He must have seen what Jesus had done at some point in his life.

Pelagianistic thinking would place all the work done in coming to Christ as man's free choice (volition), and that when man makes that choice then God responds by creating new life and sending the comforter to comfort.

Well, it takes God first drawing/calling that sinner before they will come, which I am sure you agree with. However, that person is still a sinner/outside of Christ until he is cleansed by the blood, and placed in Christ, making him a christian.

If anyone had both history and face to face understanding of God, it had to be Adam. Yet, when Adam fell, he had no desire for God, but he blamed, excused, and argued. He was sorry, but that wasn't Godly sorrow.

He was sorrry he got caught, I guess. I agree that it takes a Godly sorrow being set up in a sinner's life. I sure had it. I was miserable until May 24th, 2007, at approx 1:30, when God saved a wretched, lowly, unworthy sinner, and placed me in Christ.

That is the condition that all men without Christ find themselves. Without the work of Christ taking place in their life, they will have no Godly sorrow and no salvation.

No one can answer a phone until it rings. Same way with us. None of us can call out to God(or better yet, want to call out to God), until He first calls. However, I do believe that there are many who will reject and die lost. You believe that God calls, and those who He calls, will respond, and be saved(or I think that is how you believe).


I pray that you find this post to be "unabrasive", because I always like civil discussions. When things start getting contentious, I bow out. I will not fight with my fellow Brethern.

 

[convicted1]

Well actually, not correct, any more than conception = natural birth. The Spirit's gracious influence brings regeneration, but faith in Christ is the final act of New Birth.

You still didn't answer my question. Is there life outside of Jesus Christ??

The "new birth" would be consistent with a baby being born, being brought forth from their mother's womb. The "new birth" is a sign that there is life. Jesus stated I am the way, the truth and the life. You don't obtain life outside of Jesus, and then later on, be placed in Him. We are seperated from God(dead in our sins), and when the blood cleanses us, we are brought back into communion with God(brought back to life). Being placed in Christ brings the "new birth/life".

OK then brother. You answer my question. Is there life outside of the Holy Spirit? I have a feeling that you may be falling for the ancient error of Sabelianism.

Steve

Not sure what you're driving at, but I am not a modalist. There is no Spiritual life outside of our Triune God. So no. No Holy Ghost= no Spiritual life. Jesus saves us, resurrects our souls(brought back into communion with God), and we walk in the newness of the Spirit, and not the oldness of the letter.

 

[convicted1]

Brother Steve,

I pray to God that you do not find any of my responses to you to be offensive in any way. That is not my intent whatsoever. I do enjoy a good Godly debate/discussion about the Word, because I gain much knowledge(Lord knows I need all I can get), through these discussions. So many times on here, the wheels fall off, and the cart goes tumbling over the hill, and then the moderators close the threads, and rightfully so. I do not want to be the source of this happening, nor do I want to be the source of confusion, either. Much can be learned through cilvil debate/discussion, moreso, than when things get heated.


It's just that the regeneration, and then salvation later is quite puzzling to me. To have life, and then later be placed in Christ seems unscriptural. Jesus is the one who gives life, and we do not get Spiritual life outside of Jesus, and then God place us in Jesus. God places us in Jesus, and Jesus then gives us the Spiritual life needed to go to heaven when are days are at an end by His shed blood.

 

[marke]

How can you make someone spiritually alive who is still dead in all their trespasses and sins?

Your sins are not forgiven until you believe. Therefore you can not be spiritually alive until you first believe. It is sin itself that makes you spiritually dead, the wages of sin is death. Until your sins are removed through faith you cannot possibly be spiritually alive.

A better question might be then, 'Can God create perfect humans without having to allow sin into the world, with all the attending wicked destined to hell for being created in sin by the will of God?'

 

[agedman]

Well, here we're back to "square one". You're stating life outside of Jesus Christ is possible.

You misunderstood.

I stated clearly that all that process takes place IN Christ. I agree that there is no life outside of the only one who is "The Life."

Salvation and regeneration happenly at the same time. One doesn't go around being regenerated, and not be in Christ at the same time. Regeneration is God giving that sinner a "new birth/life" by placing them in Christ at the point of salvation. One doesn't have salvation w/o being regenerated, and one is not regenerated w/o salvation; iow, they go "hand-in-hand".

Again, I don't disagree. What you state is true. The fact is that the believer is chosen long before they ever come to an intellectual awareness. That choosing isn't man generated, and there is no "sinner's prayer" that magically opens heaven's ears.

Salvation isn't based upon the proclamation of man. There are those who say if you don't say a certain prayer a certain way, you aren't saved. NOT!!!! Salvation is determined by God. Man's new nature cannot help but cry out at birth, just as the believer cannot. However, does the baby cry out before actual birth? Are they any less a baby? The vocal birth of the believer doesn't mean there was no existence as a child of God from "the foundations of the world."

Salvation and regeneration aren't "processes" that happen over time, but are a one time event, where Jesus' shed blood cleanses the soul of the sinner, making them righteous in the sight of God, places them in Christ, to walk in the newness of life.

I disagree.

Paul talks about salvation as a continual process. The baptists have long held to the condition of the believer as: Have been saved, Am saved, Will be saved.

Certainly we do not Crucify Christ again. But, Paul said he died daily, crucified the flesh, and other such terms that showed a need to continually walk in the Spirit so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. The same is as a child after birth. They don't go repeating the birth, but show by continued breathing, feeding, crying... that they are alive.

The new birth doesn't mean we are grown up. Both Paul and Peter instructed that we are to add to the faith that God gave us. This doesn't mean the faith is enlarged, it means that the faith is adorned with precious character items that make us more and more Christ like.

Again, the regeneration and salvation are ongoing. The conception is the merely the start.

These two terms could be used to mean the same thing, too(salvation and regeneration). God comes to us as sinners, shows us our lost condition, and the result if we reject Him. At this time, we are still outside of Christ, because His blood wasn't placed in us to cleanse our soul. When we humble ourselves under His merciful hand, the blood cleanses us, and we are then placed in Christ.

Ah, but again there is a misunderstanding. Look at the work of the Holy spirit to the world - sin, righteousness, judgment. God doesn't have to "show us" our lost condition, it is already known. Instead, knowing we have no ability to conceive salvation nor the new life, God plants those in us, to grow and to bring us to express sinfulness and His great salvation.

From the moment that God starts this process we are "in Christ." Remember Jesus prayer? "Father all that you have given me..." Where the disciples, disciples, before they new they were disciples? Yes. For God had given them to Christ. They just didn't know it. It was already a done deal from God to Christ.

Nope. We are not in Christ until we are saved. There is no life outside of Jesus Christ. In the Calvinist model, one can be regenerated, yet still be a sinner. There is no way a sinner can be "in Christ" at any point in time.

Agreed in part see further.

Well, a sinner can not express any true belief unless they have been saved. No one can truly say Jesus is Lord w/o the Spirit. No sinner has the Spirit within them, btw.

...

you can't believe Jesus is Lord w/o the Spirit, and a sinner does not have the Spirit within them at anytime.

I disagree. Every man is a sinner even after salvation. That is the waring that takes place between the old nature and the new creature created in Christ Jesus.

The Holy Spirit has no fellowship with the old nature, that is true. But Christ lives in me and so does the old nature that still desires the things of the flesh.

Well, it takes God first drawing/calling that sinner before they will come, which I am sure you agree with. However, that person is still a sinner/outside of Christ until he is cleansed by the blood, and placed in Christ, making him a christian.

No disagreement.

He was sorrry he got caught, I guess. I agree that it takes a Godly sorrow being set up in a sinner's life. I sure had it. I was miserable until May 24th, 2007, at approx 1:30, when God saved a wretched, lowly, unworthy sinner, and placed me in Christ.

Just asking, but when God saved you, are you sure it wasn't at the foundations of the world and you just accepted the fact on May 24th because God was impressing his claim upon your living?

The reason I ask is because some folks place the ability of accepting (and also rejecting) as their choice. But as I have looked at the Old Testament prophets, and the New Testament believers there doesn't seem to be any "ability indicators." People were chosen because God chose them.

Just because you were "for ordained" doesn't diminish the importance of the experience of accepting Christ. Each experience of a believer accepting Christ is unique to that believer which demonstrates at least two things.

First, that we are not clones and robots to God. He comes to us as individuals, creating in us individually, molding us to fit His purpose that others can't fit. He is the master builder with unique plans for each believer.

Second, that God wants us to know the sinfulness of sin and the graciousness of His salvation. I am convinced the deeper the conviction the more God becomes the Lord of our lives.

No one can answer a phone until it rings. Same way with us. None of us can call out to God(or better yet, want to call out to God), until He first calls. However, I do believe that there are many who will reject and die lost. You believe that God calls, and those who He calls, will respond, and be saved(or I think that is how you believe).


I pray that you find this post to be "unabrasive", because I always like civil discussions. When things start getting contentious, I bow out. I will not fight with my fellow Brethern.

I like your phone illustration. It shows that God does the calling.

You are also correct (in my opinion) about the many who will be lost. "Broad is the way..."

They will be lost because they are like Adam at the fall. When face to face with the very God that he before had walked, talked, and had fellowship in the cool of the evening as no man has ever done (except Christ) he blamed, excused and argued. God poured out the Holy Spirit on the whole world, and the world is without excuse.

 

[psalms109:31]

Acts 3:
17 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’[Deut. 18:15,18,19]

24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’[Gen. 22:18; 26:4] 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”

Acts 4
Peter and John Before the Sanhedrin
1 The priests and the captain of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to Peter and John while they were speaking to the people. 2 They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people, proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead. 3 They seized Peter and John and, because it was evening, they put them in jail until the next day. 4 But many who heard the message believed; so the number of men who believed grew to about five thousand.

5 The next day the rulers, the elders and the teachers of the law met in Jerusalem. 6 Annas the high priest was there, and so were Caiaphas, John, Alexander and others of the high priest’s family. 7 They had Peter and John brought before them and began to question them: “By what power or what name did you do this?”

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 Jesus is

“‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’[Psalm 118:22]

12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,


Most people can only see half of the truth they are still seeing as it was before Jesus was lifted up and glorified, before the Holy Spirit being poured on the earth. All the prophets and messenger being called and appointed and God working everything together to bring Jesus Christ is appointing some to bring the message of salvation to the world. See those being included meaning included meaning they were not there from the beginning they are included when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed.

You will not see if you don't even believe God loved the world that He sent His Son and that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

We can't even start to explain anything to those who change world and all to fit their own understanding.

I do believe in the elect if there wasn't an elect a few with no one seeking God or no one good meaning all of us is sinners, without the messenger being sent we will never seek or hear the message. The saved that hear their message and believe will be like the sands of the seashore. God gives us no limit of who will be saved, He knows He is God all that will be saved will be in Jesus Christ. Those who trust in Jesus not themselves or in their own ability who trust not in their righteousness but Jesus righteousness, those who do not trust in their work, but the finished work of Jesus.

Romans 4:
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

2 Corinthians 5:
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[Or Christ, that person is a new creation.] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Brother Steve,

I pray to God that you do not find any of my responses to you to be offensive in any way. That is not my intent whatsoever. I do enjoy a good Godly debate/discussion about the Word, because I gain much knowledge(Lord knows I need all I can get), through these discussions. So many times on here, the wheels fall off, and the cart goes tumbling over the hill, and then the moderators close the threads, and rightfully so. I do not want to be the source of this happening, nor do I want to be the source of confusion, either. Much can be learned through cilvil debate/discussion, moreso, than when things get heated.

Not at all, brother. I didn't find anything tha you have written offensive, and in any case I make point of never being offended on a discussion forum. If I got over-animated in any response I may have made, I apologize.

It's just that the regeneration, and then salvation later is quite puzzling to me. To have life, and then later be placed in Christ seems unscriptural. Jesus is the one who gives life, and we do not get Spiritual life outside of Jesus, and then God place us in Jesus. God places us in Jesus, and Jesus then gives us the Spiritual life needed to go to heaven when are days are at an end by His shed blood.

I think you need to separate the initial workings of the Spirit from the New Birth. As I suggested above, there is an implantation of human life at conception, but a birth des not follow until nine months later. I think that if you ask around, you will find that very few people go from complete scepticism and unbelief to repentance and faith in an instant. More usually, one goes through stages of awakening, when one suddenly finds an interest in spiritual things, and conviction, when one becomes aware of one's sinful status, before one comes to the point of repentance and faith. Hearing the word of God is always crucial in conversion, of course, but as I say, people very seldom go from unbelief to conversion in one sermon.

I have given a more detailed response to all this, and an answer to your question, on the Does the Holy Spirit draw the unsaved to Christ?
thread.

Steve

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

AIC,
I believe you are very sincere and a nice person. If you look, I thanked you for trying to post the link for me to consider.......then I started to look at the link.....I understand what you were trying to do,and am thankful you made the effort.
Aic.....my concern is that in reading such false ideas of this false teacher will harm your soul.

I appreciate your concern for my soul, but you need not fret. Everything is fine regarding my soul.

All I will say for now is.....never say.....you would not worship the God calvinists speak of......because any who make this statement are in danger as I described to you....

I have no idea who that was that said that to you, but they probably just misspoke. I have never heard anyone advocate that Calvinists worship a false God. They simply disagree with some of Calvinisms doctrine. If someome in my link said that, they should not have.

Aic...I am sure you remember that many times I spoke against your wrong idea on Jesus lighting everyman everywhere...the way you described it.

Yes, I remember that. You do not believe the scriptures that inform us that God gives "light" to every person in the world.

I never said to you....I could never worship such a God !
If I was wrong on this verse and you were correct, that would be fine with me.

As it should be.

AIC.....if you are wrong about calvinism.....and it is just as they say....you would want to worship that true and living God that they teach about...would'nt you...like Paul did:

Well, of course.

If God illuminates my understanding, and through the scriptures convinces me that calvinism is completly true, then yes, I would of course accept that, and would return to the side of calvinisn...as I once was before God pulled me out of it and taught me the more accurate view..referred to as Arminanism.

We are all works in progress.

But I would be surprised if that would happen. God has shown me so clearly the errors of calvinism, and solidified the truth to me.