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Is God Able To regenerate sinners before their faith in Christ?

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Winman

Active Member
Can you show me a Scripture that shows this. I have done a search but haven't found one!
There are many;

Jn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Until you believe in Jesus you are dead in sin. You cannot be spiritually alive until after you believe. The moment you believe you are justified, forgiven of all sins. Only then are you spiritually alive.
 

Winman

Active Member
You are wrong Winman. The passage is:

1 Corinthians 2:10-14
10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


In verses 10-13 the Apostle is teaching the works of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God

1. that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

2. not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

He then contrasts the inability of the natural man to the ability of the spiritual man, one in-dwelt with the Holy Spirit, as shown above. The inability of the natural man, the unregenerate man, is graphically shown in verse 14:

14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You don't get it, they had already received the Spirit, therefore they had already believed. (Gal 3:2)
 

Winman

Active Member
Old Regular, you do not receive the Holy Spirit until after you believe.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter told these men they must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins, and THEN they would receive the Spirit.

The apostles did not baptize anyone unless they believed.

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest, And he answered, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Peter told the Jews if they were baptized in Jesus's name they would receive the Holy Ghost. They only baptized believers, so faith preceeds receiving the Spirit.
 
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OldRegular

Well-Known Member
There are many;

Jn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Until you believe in Jesus you are dead in sin. You cannot be spiritually alive until after you believe. The moment you believe you are justified, forgiven of all sins. Only then are you spiritually alive.

Sorry! I don't see forgiveness of sins and believe in the same verse!
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Old Regular, you do not receive the Holy Spirit until after you believe.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter told these men they must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins, and THEN they would receive the Spirit.

So according to you repentance and Baptism are required for the forgiveness of sin! I don't see any mention of belief!

Are you also telling me that I must be baptized to receive the Holy Spirit. That sounds like Church of Christ and Roman Catholicism


The apostles did not baptize anyone unless they believed.

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest, And he answered, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Peter told the Jews if they were baptized in Jesus's name they would receive the Holy Ghost. They only baptized believers, so faith preceeds receiving the Spirit.

Could be wrong but I don't believe Philip was an Apostle!

Furthermore the action of Peter preceded the action of Philip so I am not sure your conclusion is justified. As I recall you have made quite an issue of the presentation of information in Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
You are wrong Winman. The passage is:

1 Corinthians 2:10-14
10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


In verses 10-13 the Apostle is teaching the works of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God

1. that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

2. not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

He then contrasts the inability of the natural man to the ability of the spiritual man, one in-dwelt with the Holy Spirit, as shown above. The inability of the natural man, the unregenerate man, is graphically shown in verse 14:

14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Response posted by Winman
You don't get it, they had already received the Spirit, therefore they had already believed. (Gal 3:2)

No Winman you are the one who does not understand. The Apostle Paul is contrasting the ability of the person who has received the Holy Spirit to understand spiritual things with the inability of the natural man, the unregenerate man, the man who has not received the Holy Spirit to understand spiritual things.

Paul's argument would be foolish if he were saying two completely different things about those in-dwelt with the Holy Spirit. You correctly stated earlier that Scripture does not contradict itself but here you claim it does. Yu are now claiming that the person in-dwelt with the Holy Spirit CAN understand the things of God and then conversely the person in-dwelt with the Holy spirit CAN NOTunderstand the things of God.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
1 Cor 2:14 does not prove a man must be regenerated to believe. This passage is speaking of the "deep things of God" (vs. 10).

Scripture cannot contradict itself. The scriptures clearly and repeatedly say a man must believe to receive the Spirit. I have shown you several of these verses, and there are many more.

1 Cor 2:12 says these Corinthians have already received the Spirit, therefore they have already believed. Therefore, these "things" spoken of in vss. 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15 are not the gospel. In vs. 9 it is the things God has prepared for them that love him. Is that the gospel? NO. In vs. 10 it is the deep things of God. Is that the gospel? NO. The gospel and believeing is not mentioned, because that is not what Paul is speaking about. You can't pull vs. 14 out of context and make it apply toward hearing the gospel and believeing.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

Now this verse directly discusses the order of events in salvation. It says a man first hears the gospel, secondly they believe, and thirdly they are sealed by the Spirit.

You are trying to reconcile scripture with Calvinist doctrine, it can't be done.

Can just anybody believe or just the sheep?
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I believe the word will show that if one is a sheep he will hear the call from the Lord and believe.

One of Winman's favorite verses: Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Verse 37 And having heard, they were pricked to the heart; they say also to Peter, and to the rest of the apostles, `What shall we do, men, brethren?'--------The Lord called and they believed.

They also heard "the faith" by which they would be given the promise of the Holy Spirit.

That being;
Acts 2:22,23 Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: ------We have a man approved of God dead.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. ------The Christ the singular seed of Abraham to whom the promises belonged-----The Faith is The Father raising his only begotten Son from the dead Gal 1:1 giving him the promise of eternal life Titus 1:2 John 5:26 and the promise of the Holy Spirit Acts 2:33

It was the hearing of this faith by which they could receive the Spirit Acts 2:33 Gal 3:2,14,22 Titus 3:6

It was because of the faith above that the gift of God, eternal life can be given to us.
By grace are ye saved (given eternal life) through the faith.
For the wages of sin death; but the gift of God eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. (BY resurrection from the dead)
 
:thumbs: I think we are making progress! We need to reconcile the verses that Winman posted earlier with the ones that I keep posting (1Cor 2:14; Eph 2:1 etc.), and I think you have seen the way. There is a work of the Spirit uopn our hearts before conversion, but at conversion the Spirit takes up permanent residence in our hearts. Is this what you are saying? I don't want to put words in your mouth.


I don't quite agree with the second part of this (2Sam 7:14-15. cf. 1Sam 16:14), but that is a subject for a different thread. We agree (I hope!) that Zacchaeus and Nicodemus experienced some work of the Spirit upon their hearts prior to conversion.
Exactly! :1_grouphug:

May I point you again to A.W. Pink's work on the Holy Spirit?
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Holy_Spirit/holy_spirit.htm
Have a read through the relevant chapters on drawing and indwelling. I'm sure many will find it helpful if they will only look at it. :flower:

Steve

The Spirit works with a sinner to bring them to the realization of their lost condition. Once they have believed from the heart, them He takes up His abode in their soul, and not before.

The same can be said of the Law. It(Law) was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Grace through faith(belief) places us in Christ.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You are correct Winamn: "Scripture cannot contradict itself". However, man can misunderstand Scripture therefore believing there is a contradiction when none exists. You are deliberately developing a conflict in Scripture where none exists.

No one who believes in the Doctrine of Grace would downplay the role of belief and faith in salvation. It was the reformers who shed light on the Grace of God, long denied/hidden by the Roman church, who proclaimed "justification by faith alone".

:thumbsup::applause::applause::thumbsup:
 
Can just anybody believe or just the sheep?

The sheep Jesus was talking about were those given to Him by the Father because they believed. Those who weren't His sheep were those who were hardened by their continual rebellion and unbelief. They were His sheep until God cut them off due to their unbelief(John 15).

He came to His own(the Jews), and His own(the Jews) believed Him not. But as many as believed(the sheep), gave He them the power to become the sons of God(sheep).
 

Winman

Active Member
No Winman you are the one who does not understand. The Apostle Paul is contrasting the ability of the person who has received the Holy Spirit to understand spiritual things with the inability of the natural man, the unregenerate man, the man who has not received the Holy Spirit to understand spiritual things.

Paul's argument would be foolish if he were saying two completely different things about those in-dwelt with the Holy Spirit. You correctly stated earlier that Scripture does not contradict itself but here you claim it does. Yu are now claiming that the person in-dwelt with the Holy Spirit CAN understand the things of God and then conversely the person in-dwelt with the Holy spirit CAN NOTunderstand the things of God.

The apostles (except Judas) all believed on Jesus long before they received the Holy Spirit.

Jn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

This was the apostles, they did not receive the Spirit until three years later.

Jn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

This refutes your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14, the apostles could understand Jesus was the Son of God and believe on him, but did not receive the Spirit until much later.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:

John the Baptist

Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God! And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

One being Andrew Simon Peter's brother. God through Andrew spoke to Peter and he followed.

The next day Jesus found Philip and said follow me and Philip followed.

ect

Moving forward in time.

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;

Whatever fold that is.

Apostle=messenger=one sent forth

Simeon hath declared how God (Through those he sent) at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

God takes out of them. The sheep from the other fold hear the word, believe and follow.

Why are these sheep found where they were found? Why are there sheep among the nations?
 

Winman

Active Member
To understand who "my sheep" are, or to understand those "given" to Jesus by the Father, you must understand foreknowledge. We are elect or chosen according to the foreknowledge of the Father. God could foresee who would believe in Christ in time and chose these persons. They are the elect, they are the sheep given to Jesus. But a person must believe for God to foresee it.

Jn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Notice the order in this verse, it is very important. The sheep #1 hear God's word, and then #2 Jesus knows them.

God does not know us in an intimate, personal way until we believe. He knows those that "hear". This is foreknowledge of who will believe.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Notice the word "NOW" it is very important. God does not know us in a personal, intimate way until we believe in time.

However, God was able to foresee this future faith, and he could know this personal relationship in time before it occured.

Foreknowledge does not determine who will believe or who will not, it only foresees what will actually occur.

Those who God foresaw would believe are his sheep, and it is these believers that the Father gives to the Son.
 
The apostles (except Judas) all believed on Jesus long before they received the Holy Spirit.

Jn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

This was the apostles, they did not receive the Spirit until three years later.

Jn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

This refutes your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14, the apostles could understand Jesus was the Son of God and believe on him, but did not receive the Spirit until much later.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

marke

New Member
Jn 8:43 is the only verse in all the Bible that could possibly be construed to say unregenerate men are unable to hear the word of God. Even if that were absolutely true in this one single verse, you cannot assume to apply this verse to 100% of men. Why? because the Lord himself said unregenerate men hear him.

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Jesus said the "way side" are those that HEAR. They can hear the word of God. The problem is not a lack of ability to hear, the problem is sin. Before they are willing to believe the devil takes the word out of their hearts.

The unregenerate can not only hear, they can believe if they so choose to do so.

Jn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The spiritually dead can hear the word of God. And if they are willing to hear the word of God and believe they will be made alive.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

This warning only makes sense if it is possible for a man to hear the promise of the gospel and accept or reject it. Why warn someone if Irresistible Grace is true? The elect have no choice but to believe, the unelect have no choice but to reject the gospel. So what possible meaning could any warning like this have? NONE. And notice in verse 2 that these unbelievers heard the word.

And going back to John 8, Jesus's language implies it is possible for these persons to believe.

Jn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Now, you may overlook that little word "if", but it is very important. It shows that these person's fate is not sealed in stone. Jesus is simply saying that if they choose to believe not they will die in their sins, but if they choose to believe they shall be saved.

No man can be regenerated, spritually alive until he first believes. Until you believe you are condemned and spiritually dead in sins. You cannot possibly be spiritually alive until your sins are removed, and you must first believe to have your sins washed away and forgiven.

Excellent position, explanation, and post. Calvinism can be explained by some of the Bible, but when the whole Bible is examined by the Light, Calvinism is found in error.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
To understand who "my sheep" are, or to understand those "given" to Jesus by the Father, you must understand foreknowledge. We are elect or chosen according to the foreknowledge of the Father. God could foresee who would believe in Christ in time and chose these persons. They are the elect, they are the sheep given to Jesus. But a person must believe for God to foresee it.

Jn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Notice the order in this verse, it is very important. The sheep #1 hear God's word, and then #2 Jesus knows them.

God does not know us in an intimate, personal way until we believe. He knows those that "hear". This is foreknowledge of who will believe.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Notice the word "NOW" it is very important. God does not know us in a personal, intimate way until we believe in time.

However, God was able to foresee this future faith, and he could know this personal relationship in time before it occured.

Foreknowledge does not determine who will believe or who will not, it only foresees what will actually occur.

Those who God foresaw would believe are his sheep, and it is these believers that the Father gives to the Son.

I understand you will disagree as will most on the forum, however in Rom 8:29 he did foreknow, means just that. The people he had known before and the word of God tells us who that is in Amos 3:1,2
Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

In Hosea chapter 1 we learn this flock was divided into two fold. One of which would be in the land when the Messiah came and the other scattered over all the earth with the remembrance of them to cease from among men. Deut. 32:26. That could not have referred to the fold known as Jews for the whole world knows who they are and most hate them. Therefore it must refer to the fold scattered among the nations (Gentiles) and known as Gentiles (nations). In chapter 3 of Jeremiah we learn God had given a bill of divorce to this fold and he was showing them as an example to the other fold Judah who in chapter four god told they needed to take away the foreskin of their heart. Judah had been calling these people Uncircumcision (foreskins)
(castaways) thus the reference in Eph. 2:11,12 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (God had given them a bill of divorce)

Foreknowledge twice in KJV. Once in the reference of the death of Christ slain. Duh! The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The other 1 Peter 1;2 which is the very people shown above see verse 1.

However as you stated in your post even all of those are not called at this time. God is taking out a people for his name for a specific purpose, a remnant according to the election of grace

He elects them as priests and kings and tells them:
having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself, in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him;

See Acts 15:14,16,17,18 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Notice it is the Lord and those upon whom his name is called that the residue of men seek. The same thing is stated in Joel 2:32 following what was quoted of Joel 2 in Acts 2.
 
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