Is This An Accurate Description of One Who Has Apostatized, or of Apostasy?

[preacher4truth]

I found this via twitter. Is it an accurate description of apostasy?:

What is Apostasy?

The Bible affirms two important truths that can seem at first blush difficult to reconcile. On the one hand the Bible affirms that all those who are brought to faith in Christ will be kept in the faith, and enter into paradise at their deaths. See I Corinthians 15:58, John 10:28, John 5:24, I John 2:19 and Romans 8. On the other hand the Bible also warns about the dangers of falling away. See Hebrews 6:4-6, Romans 11:17-22, I Timothy 1: 18-19, John 15: 1-2. If nothing can take believers from God’s hand, if those whom He justifies He glorifies, what is going on with those who are cut off, who trample on the blood? Are these warning merely hypothetical, or are we by them assured that what they warn against won’t come to pass? Are they temporarily saved, having received every blessing in Christ, save for persevering grace? No.

Apostasy is real, as is the perseverance of the saints. When God gives a person a new heart that embraces the work of Christ in faith, that person is at peace with God for always. Such a person could never completely fall away from the faith. Apostasy isn’t about those who have been blessed with a faith that trusts in the finished work of Christ alone. Apostasy is what happens when one moves from phenomenologically saved to phenomenologically unsaved, which demonstrates that this person was never ontologically saved.

Big words, I know. Their meanings, however, are fairly simple. All we mean by “phenomenologically” is “as the eye sees.” All we mean by “ontogically” is “as it actually is.” To put it more simply, apostasy is when a person who was a part of the visible church, but not a part of the invisible church, ceases to be a part of the visible church. The profession of faith is either no longer professed, or is deemed no longer to be credible by the elders of the church.

This may seem like rather small potatoes. No one’s soul is actually moving from life to death. That, however, doesn’t make it small potatoes. These lost souls (keeping in mind that at least in some circumstances those who “leave” the faith my yet be saved- see the man excommunicated in I Corinthians, who later repented and is brought back into the church in II Corinthians) are people who were, in terms of the visible church, a part of the body. They are not cut off cleanly. We loved them, enjoyed fellowship with them, and naturally mourn when they depart from us.

As a pastor I have seen men I loved excommunicated for unrepentant, gross and heinous sin. It broke my heart. I have seen whole families simply abandon the church (not our church, not even the Protestant church, but the church). It broke my heart. I have seen multiple families reject the Biblical gospel for the false gospel of Cathodoxy. It broke my heart. People I looked forward to spending eternity with, who I loved because I thought we shared a love for Christ, turned out to be imposters. People whom I hoped to see I heaven appeared to be goats.

Apostasy is real. It happens. It ought to break our hearts. And in turn our hearts must be comforted in knowing that He has never lost one of His own, and will never leave us, nor forsake us.

- RC Sproul Jr.

• Is this an accurate description of apostasy, one who has apostatized?

• Is it possible such a person was ever truly saved?

• Is there a time said person can become once again an active member in a local body, producing fruit again, proving they were saved, though they appeared to have apostatized?

-or-

• Does this person who was once a professing Christian, living for God, producing fruit, an active member, who then later for a time appeared as though they had apostatized (according to above description) yet having returned now become one who needs to be saved, or is said simply proving they were saved all along?

• Did it just become too late for this person who apostatized to actually ever be saved?

• Or, is the above quote simply not totally true, and instead an apostate is simply a person who once claimed the faith, but now has come to reject it altogether?

- Peace

 

[JesusFan]

I found this via twitter. Is it an accurate description of apostasy?:

• Is this is an accurate description of apostasy, one who has apostatized?

• Is it possible such a person was truly ever saved?

• Is there a time said person can become once again an active member in a local body, producing fruit again, proving they were saved, though they appeared to have apostatized?

-or-

• Does this person who was once a professing Christian, living for God, producing fruit, an active member, who then later for a time appeared as though they had apostatized (according to above description) yet having returned now become one who needs to be saved, or is said simply proving they were saved all along?

• Did it just become too late for this person who apostatized to actually ever be saved?

• Or, is the above quote simply not totally true, and instead an apostate is simply a person who once claimed the faith, but now has come to reject it altogether?

- Peace

To my understanding, IF a genuine born again person was actually able to "deny the faith", disavow Christ, and become lost again...

Would be akin to seeing that jesus could actually had committed sin while on earth!

My view is that we have new natures, HS sealed in us, and God cannot deny Himself!
that part of us regenerated will never get to oint of a final rejection...

Question though...

can we deny for a season, due to unconfessed/unrepentent sin, and eventually find our way back to God again?

 

[righteousdude2]

If He Says It, CAn He Take It Back?

To my understanding, IF a genuine born again person was actually able to "deny the faith", disavow Christ, and become lost again...

Would be akin to seeing that jesus could actually had committed sin while on earth!

My view is that we have new natures, HS sealed in us, and God cannot deny Himself!
that part of us regenerated will never get to oint of a final rejection...

Question though...

can we deny for a season, due to unconfessed/unrepentent sin, and eventually find our way back to God again?

How long is a season? That may be the question of the century, let alone, eternity??? My prodigal daze/walk was possibly a season (of struggle for my spirit, and grief to the Father), but it always had His Spirit of conviction alive and working within me, leading to repentance and honest attempts to walk the path free of the iniquity that caused me to fall in the first place.

However, personally, I find it hard to believe that anyone who is in Christ, can commit a sin without being convicted of that sin, and repenting.

Of course, they may fall back into that sin, or a similar sin, and continue to repeat this pattern (spiritual struggle) until they learn how to avoid it completely and therefore, spiritually irradiate that sin (with His help), and anything akin to that sin, from their personal makeup forever (like addictions, etc.).

That is the learning process of "Sanctification" which follows the acts of Salvation and Justification, which come before the final act of Glorification!

I firmly believe that the gift of salvation is a once, and forever thing. We are adopted, through a Heavenly legal process and act, and we can never be disowned by the Father, no more than Jesus could have sinned, or the Father could have disowned His Son!

I am not saved for a season, but for eternity. Does that give me license to sin? God forbid! I do not believe that a true believer can return to their walk on the road to hell without some form of conscience, and its that spiritual conscience that causes us to repent and get our feet back on the path. :type:

 

[Jeremiah2911]

I found this via twitter. Is it an accurate description of apostasy?:

• Is this an accurate description of apostasy, one who has apostatized?

• Is it possible such a person was ever truly saved?

• Is there a time said person can become once again an active member in a local body, producing fruit again, proving they were saved, though they appeared to have apostatized?

-or-

• Does this person who was once a professing Christian, living for God, producing fruit, an active member, who then later for a time appeared as though they had apostatized (according to above description) yet having returned now become one who needs to be saved, or is said simply proving they were saved all along?

• Did it just become too late for this person who apostatized to actually ever be saved?

• Or, is the above quote simply not totally true, and instead an apostate is simply a person who once claimed the faith, but now has come to reject it altogether?

- Peace

I really like Sprouls definition--Scripture I have heard a lot which applies:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Of course true born again Christians can fall away [not from salvation], but never out of the Fathers grip--when I had my own prodigal experience many moons ago, I never denied the faith, I was just totally out of fellowship with the Lord and His people.

A little history sidenote concerning your questions: in the early Church, one of the first real controversies they had concerned those who had "fallen away"--wanna know what they did to fall away? When the Romans were killing Christians, Christianity kept growing--they got tired of them being so willing to die, so they changed their tactics--people would turn in young Mothers who were Christians, and they would get the Moms and babies in front of a council and ask the Mom if she was a Christian--while they held a sword to the baby's neck--well, what would we do???? Many of the Moms cracked under the pressure, and they felt awful, no doubt, but when they decided to get back into Church, they had a surprise waiting for them--the Church argued whether to let "apostates" back in......that was when Christianity was real and it meant something--nowadays many people consider it persecution to go to Church when the weather isn't quite perfect

[My documentation for this story is from a 13 hour Church history series of lectures from Denton Bible church in Denton, TX--powerful series btw!] God bless

 

[JesusFan]

How long is a season? That may be the question of the century, let alone, eternity??? My prodigal daze/walk was possibly a season (of struggle for my spirit, and grief to the Father), but it always had His Spirit of conviction alive and working within me, leading to repentance and honest attempts to walk the path free of the iniquity that caused me to fall in the first place.

However, personally, I find it hard to believe that anyone who is in Christ, can commit a sin without being convicted of that sin, and repenting.

Of course, they may fall back into that sin, or a similar sin, and continue to repeat this pattern (spiritual struggle) until they learn how to avoid it completely and therefore, spiritually irradiate that sin (with His help), and anything akin to that sin, from their personal makeup forever (like addictions, etc.).

yes!

that is the point believe Apostle John was saying in that Christians will not commit a lifestyle of sinning once saved, as the Lord in Us will be at work to convict us and bring us back to confession/repentance ...

He would want us to do such immediatly, but we alas have 'free will" and can delay that process![/quoye]

That is the learning process of "Sanctification" which follows the acts of Salvation and Justification, which come before the final act of Glorification!

I firmly believe that the gift of salvation is a once, and forever thing. We are adopted, through a Heavenly legal process and act, and we can never be disowned by the Father, no more than Jesus could have sinned, or the Father could have disowned His Son!

I am not saved for a season, but for eternity. Does that give me license to sin? God forbid! I do not believe that a true believer can return to their walk on the road to hell without some form of conscience, and its that spiritual conscience that causes us to repent and get our feet back on the path. :type:

That its best to avoid either extremes in this...

We are saved by grace, but NOT given free liceanse to sin more, so that Grace might more abound, as per Paul...

other extreme would be that unless you are living almost in a state of sinless perfection before God, have to wonder if was ever really saved!

 

[MB]

I believe everytime we sin we are in apostasy. Simply because Sin is rebellion and rebellion is against God. This is why confession of our sins is so important.
MB

 

[JesusFan]

I believe everytime we sin we are in apostasy. Simply because Sin is rebellion and rebellion is against God. This is why confession of our sins is so important.
MB

No confession/repentence, no forgiveness as we would see it..

God has already freely forgave us, as blood of Christ paid for all sins to come, but unless/until we confess them, we will not benefit from His forgiveness!

 

[preacher4truth]

No confession/repentence, no forgiveness as we would see it..

God has already freely forgave us, as blood of Christ paid for all sins to come, but unless/until we confess them, we will not benefit from His forgiveness!

True to an extent, but none of this has a thing to do with apostatizing. If we were to take a very simple and basic "falling away" even that is not the same as what is being described above. A Christian sinning is not apostasy.

As in Acts 21:21 it is seen as "forsaking," as in an example concerning the false premise about "forsaking Moses Law." See Acts 21:21. This word forsake here would entail forsaking a belief once and for all. This is what I believe it means to apostatize.

2 Thess. 2:3 also uses this same word apostasia where the context supports one forsaking the faith or falling away from the faith altogether, from what I understand.

I don't believe these are referring to a person who has stopped going to church or hasn't gone. Nor is it referring to our sins we commit (if that were true, then that would mean we've abandoned the faith, which is not true, as in such a case one would never repent, there is nothing they believe any longer). I believe apostatizing means abandoning the faith to which one had formerly embraced, showing therefore they were not saved to begin with.

Hebrews 6 is descriptive of an apostates attitude toward Christ and the Gospel message.

 

[JesusFan]

True to an extent, but none of this has a thing to do with apostatizing. If we were to take a very simple and basic "falling away" even that is not the same as what is being described above. A Christian sinning is not apostasy.

As in Acts 21:21 it is seen as "forsaking," as in an example concerning the false premise about "forsaking Moses Law." See Acts 21:21. This word forsake here would entail forsaking a belief once and for all. This is what I believe it means to apostatize.

2 Thess. 2:3 also uses this same word apostasia where the context supports one forsaking the faith or falling away from the faith altogether, from what I understand.

I don't believe these are referring to a person who has stopped going to church or hasn't gone. Nor is it referring to our sins we commit (if that were true, then that would mean we've abandoned the faith, which is not true, as in such a case one would never repent, there is nothing they believe any longer). I believe apostatizing means abandoning the faith to which one had formerly embraced, showing therefore they were not saved to begin with.

Hebrews 6 is descriptive of an apostates attitude toward Christ and the Gospel message.

agree with you, that it refers to one who formally had professed having Chrsit as their Saviour, yet later on made their true self evidenced by denying jesus even was their saviour, that he was just a man..... They either did not need to get saved, or else another way would save them!

 

[beameup]

I believe everytime we sin we are in apostasy. Simply because Sin is rebellion and rebellion is against God. This is why confession of our sins is so important.
MB

What a sad state and heavy burden for a Christian to carry.
I'm sure that the Accuser of the Brethren will be sure to continually remind you of all those "sins". :tonofbricks:

 

[JesusFan]

What a sad state and heavy burden for a Christian to carry.
I'm sure that the Accuser of the Brethren will be sure to continually remind you of all those "sins". :tonofbricks:

Reminds me of the story heard on Luthor, that the Devil showed up at his front door, and said " what will you do IF I were to cutoff both arms? he replied to him would still be ok, as it was Jesus holding him, not martin holding jesus!"

 

[beameup]

Reminds me of the story heard on Luthor, that the Devil showed up at his front door, and said " what will you do IF I were to cutoff both arms? he replied to him would still be ok, as it was Jesus holding him, not martin holding jesus!"

Yes, Luther was continually doing penance until one day the Lord opened his eyes and stood him on his feet and told him that he had already paid for his sins present-past-future.
It is amazing how many Christians are downtrodden and rendered useless by the Accuser of the Brethren.