The coupe de grace of deniers of original sin

[webdog]

Justified anger is, but not anger. Justified wrath is, but not wrath! Little children respond in anger, wrath, definance simply for no other reason MANY TIMES than not getting their own way or in definance to a parent saying "no"! Small children may not understand WHY something is right or wrong but they understand WHAT is right and wrong and react defiantly in spite of knowing it is wrong

correct me if I'm wrong, but you were referencing infants in your op, no? Never heard an infant say no.
the burden of proof is on you to show you can know an infants heart, desires and motive while discerning each cry. Some spiritual gift that must be!

Apparently you have not been a father very long or do not have children or do not have children over two or three years of age or you wouldn't even ask this question!

strike 3...wrong on all counts!

I have raised five children and they are grown and married and now help raise nine grandchildren.

thats wonderful!

Write back when you either have raised children past the age of five and see if you still restrict "selfishness" to merely "hunger, lonliness, pain, etc."!!! How about hitting their siblings while forcefully taking away their toy when they were told no, and they understand WHAT no means at very early age even though they don't understand the WHY of no!

besides being off in your prophecy skills (good thing you don't live during OT times), like I said earlier you were discussing infants. I didnt even address school age children. If you would like me to I will.

 

[webdog]

Debates and discussions are 2 ways, btw. You never answered any of my questions. If you wish to have serious discussion per your op (which was pertaining to infants, just went back and looked) then do just that without the cute little quips.

 

[The Biblicist]

correct me if I'm wrong, but you were referencing infants in your op, no? Never heard an infant say no.
the burden of proof is on you to show you can know an infants heart, desires and motive while discerning each cry. Some spiritual gift that must be!

The discussion leading up to your post has been about children from the womb until the time of what HP calls the age of accountability for choices between right and wrong. I have also stated that the infant has limited physical ability of expression but as the infant develops his ability to expess himself (rolling to crawling to standing to walking; from gibberish to simple words) his inborn depravity increasingly makes itself manifested.

strike 3...wrong on all counts! thats wonderful!

If I am wrong on all three accounts then you must have raised children up to at least five years of age and thus you know what I said is true! They know what you mean by "no" and willfully do it anyway even if they do not understand why you said no!

besides being off in your prophecy skills (good thing you don't live during OT times), like I said earlier you were discussing infants. I didnt even address school age children. If you would like me to I will.

As I said, we are not discussing "school age children" as that is a wide open range from 5 to 18. We are discussing children from infants to the time they can be held accountable for their choices.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Death means separation. So if "death passed upon all men," then it is separation from God, such as Adam was separated from God. An infant is separated from God just as much as an adult is: one because of its sin nature and the other because of his sinful actions which arise out of his nature.

when we study the following passage about regeneration we can know that a person comes out of the womb spiritually alive so he is not separated from God:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit." If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit. That happens at conception.

 

[The Biblicist]

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. .

The only other birth that regeneration is compared with by contrast is the physical birth (Jn. 3:6-7; Gal. 1:15-16). It is NEVER compared with any other kind of birth anywhere in scripture! If so, please provide the Scripture to show it? Regeneration is another birth in addition to physical birth (Jn. 3:6 - "what is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of Spirit is spirit, marvel not that I say thee, ye must be born AGAIN"

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: If I am wrong on all three accounts then you must have raised children up to at least five years of age and thus you know what I said is true! They know what you mean by "no" and willfully do it anyway even if they do not understand why you said no!

HP: They no more have a clear understanding of the intrinsic nature of moral commands than an animal does. They are operating from instinct and two basic motivations at that young age, rewards and punishments. Until one reaches an age where they understand the intrinsic value of a command 'apart from rewards or punishments,' they are not moral agents.

Why do you believe that men, even those with no understanding of Scripture, intuitively know it is wrong to punish a child for say, murder, if it is done at such a young age? If anything we would place such a one in protective custody at a young age to protect themselves from themselves and to keep others safe. Why do you suppose we would not even consider executing a child for what might appear to be a violent crime?

The only thing you have proven so far, if anything, is that physically depraved sensibilities in children are a formidable influence to selfishness, etc.

You need to come to grips with the fact that being born is not sin. You need to distinguish between influences to sin and sin itself. You need to understand that the sensibilities and the will are not one in the same. By the way, when are you going to address the progression of sin mentioned in James? That might be an excellent start towards wisdom in this discussion.


More often than not, it is poor parental training in small children if a parent finds such behavior as you are saying all children exhibit. I can tell you one thing, having raised several children well past the age of whatever, all children do NOT exhibit the behavior you speak of. Good training by parents coupled with prayer goes a long way to avert such responses in children.

In conclusion: All men are born with depraved sensibilities as a direct cause of the fall. Those are indeed strong proclivities to sin but are not sin in and of themselves just as temptation to sin, or an influence to sin is not sin in and of itself. Sin simply does not occur until the age of accountability as explained above. To attribute sin to infants and small children as you clearly have done on a regular basis, is beyond any semblance of reason.

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: They no more have a clear understanding of the intrinsic nature of moral commands than an animal does.

Nice try! Even animals know a trained command even though they don't understand the intrinsic nature of moral commands! Very young children have been trained to undstand what "no" means even though they do not understand the intinsic nature of "no" as a moral command! Nevertheless, they WILLFULLY violate that command and that WILLFUL violation does not originate from the IMAGE OF GOD or a RIGHTEOUS NATURE by spiritual birth!!!!!! It is an intentional act of defiance often expressed in rage due to selfish desires in a confrontation of their will against your will.

Every parent reading this knows what I am saying!

 

[Winman]

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Jesus told three stories in Luke 15 describing lost sinners who repent. The first he compares to a shepherd who had 100 sheep but lost one. He searched and recovered it, but originally this sheep was in the flock, not lost. He then describes a woman with 10 coins who loses one. She searches and recovers it, but originally it was in her possession and not lost.

Then he describes a young man who leaves home and is lost in sin, he joins himself to a citizen of a far country (Satan). He repents and comes home asking for forgiveness. When he does, his father says he is ALIVE AGAIN. This is repeated in vs. 32.

Jesus knows correct doctrine, how can someone be ALIVE AGAIN if thy are born dead in sin?

Original sin is false doctrine introduced by Augustine.

 

[The Biblicist]

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Jesus told three stories in Luke 15 describing lost sinners who repent. The first he compares to a shepherd who had 100 sheep but lost one. He searched and recovered it, but originally this sheep was in the flock, not lost. He then describes a woman with 10 coins who loses one. She searches and recovers it, but originally it was in her possession and not lost.

Then he describes a young man who leaves home and is lost in sin, he joins himself to a citizen of a far country (Satan). He repents and comes home asking for forgiveness. When he does, his father says he is ALIVE AGAIN. This is repeated in vs. 32.

Jesus knows correct doctrine, how can someone be ALIVE AGAIN if thy are born dead in sin?

Original sin is false doctrine introduced by Augustine.

Doctrine is not built upon parables! Any good theologion knows this. I gave clear and explicit texts and no one has yet addressed them. What they have done is changed the subject or pitted parables, or texts needing inferences to respond!

However, in regard to the father. This ADULT son was alive prior to his departure in the sense there was no SPATIAL separation between them. However, he was spatiallly separated from his son for a while and then he returned!

Again, regeneration is NEVER ONCE compared with any other birth than physcial birth and then it is a comparison by CONTRAST not a comparison by likeness.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: Every parent reading this knows what I am saying!

HP: Sorry, I am a parent. I cannot follow you in the least. Oh well, you must have writing "every parent" in some form of common parlance. :laugh:

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Sorry, I am a parent. I cannot follow you in the least. Oh well, you must have writing "every parent" in some form of common parlance. :laugh:

So you're children were perfect? Never had a temper tantrum? I guess I must have gotten the only rebellious child. Mine came out screaming "no"! :laugh:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Sorry to hear that Amy. :tear: All of ours were perfect.:laugh:

Seriously, the point is not whether or not children are easily led by depraved sensibilities, the question is about are those actions in infants and small children in reality sin? If they are born in sin, we may pity them, but to blame them, and especially eternally so, would be completely unjust.

We do not even 'blame' them in reality as small children, for they have absolutely little to no understanding of their actions other than via praise or blame. What we do for blame at a young age is not as if though they have committed a moral trespass, but rather blame is centered on teaching them proper, kind and safe behavior.
Certainly I have some children that required more training than others, but I can honestly say they have been a joy to raise. I thank God for them. I ask God to help make up for my mistakes, for certainly I made some.

Sinners from birth? No way. Were they born as all men, with depravity sensibilities as a direct consequence of the fall? Absolutely.

 

[DHK]

when we study the following passage about regeneration we can know that a person comes out of the womb spiritually alive so he is not separated from God:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit." If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit. That happens at conception.

You have a problem in that you ignore Scripture.
"We are by nature children of wrath."
What nature? The only nature that makes us children of wrath is our sinful nature that we are born with. If we were not born with a sinful nature we would not be children of wrath would we?
You need to address Eph.2:2,3.

The fact that a person needs to be born again and the teaching that he must be born into God's family, become a child of God, infers that he was never a child of God to begin with. If he was not a child of God, it means he was a child of Satan, as Eph.2:2,3 teaches. He needs to be born into God's family. He was born with a sin nature, born into the wrong family. He needs to be born again; born into the right family, the family of God.

 

[DHK]

In conclusion: All men are born with depraved sensibilities as a direct cause of the fall. Those are indeed strong proclivities to sin but are not sin in and of themselves just as temptation to sin, or an influence to sin is not sin in and of itself. Sin simply does not occur until the age of accountability as explained above. To attribute sin to infants and small children as you clearly have done on a regular basis, is beyond any semblance of reason.

Nice philosophy; very humanistic; but notice that there is not an ounce of Scripture to back it up.

 

[plain_n_simple]

What an amazing arguement! At some point in time, between birth and whenever, that child will commit sin. Period. That child will need to be born again. Some of these statement sound very huministic, and or human pyschology, no scripture.

 

[marke]

I'm not sure what the real problem is here in the discussion but I also know that by one man sin entered the world and plunged the whole world into sin. But also by one man the curse was lifted from the whole world in such a way that sinners could be forgiven of their sins if only they receive the knowledge of the truth that is given at some point to all men born into the world (John 1:9). If death came upon all men to condemnation, the free gift also came upon all men unto justification, but that free gift must be accepted from God on His specific terms if it is to be effective (Romans 5:18). Otherwise there is no forgiveness for sin for those who reject the truth after the light is given them from God when they are spoken to by the Holy Spirit who is drawing them to Christ (John 12:32; John 3:19).

 

[The Biblicist]

But also by one man the curse was lifted from the whole world in such a way that sinners could be forgiven of their sins if only they receive the knowledge of the truth that is given at some point to all men born into the world (John 1:9).

Yes, only TWO men are being contrasted and the actions of only TWO men (the first and second Adam). The actions by these two men had consequences that affected many.

This is clearly REPRESENTATION "by one man offence" or "by one man's "obedience" whose actions "MADE" many the objects of such consequences.

The text does not say "by MANY MEN'S OFFENCES" made many the objects of such consequences.

The text does not say "by MANY MEN'S OBEDIENCES" made many the objects of such consequences!

The consequences were "passed upon" and "received" through birth. The consequences of Adam's sin was passed through physical birth. The consequences of Christ's obedience was received through spiritual birth. We are born "IN Adam" because it is only "IN Adam all die" and we must be born "IN Christ" because there is no life/justification/salvation OUTSIDE of Christ.

 

[convicted1]

Simply a classic post Gup with a fresh way to illustrate truth. :thumbs:

I second this! And give it two of these-----------> :thumbs::thumbs:



and for good measure------> :thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

I'm not sure what the real problem is here in the discussion but I also know that by one man sin entered the world and plunged the whole world into sin. But also by one man the curse was lifted from the whole world in such a way that sinners could be forgiven of their sins if only they receive the knowledge of the truth that is given at some point to all men born into the world (John 1:9). If death came upon all men to condemnation, the free gift also came upon all men unto justification, but that free gift must be accepted from God on His specific terms if it is to be effective (Romans 5:18). Otherwise there is no forgiveness for sin for those who reject the truth after the light is given them from God when they are spoken to by the Holy Spirit who is drawing them to Christ (John 12:32; John 3:19).

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[The Biblicist]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

The problem here is the definition of sin. Those who deny that man fell in Adam and possess a sinful nature from birth define sin but one way - willful transgression (1 Jn. 4:6). If that were the only definition of sin they might have a better case.

However, sin is also defined by OMISSION or coming short of God's glory (Rom. 3:23) and that by necessity defines sin by anything that does not measure up to God's own moral righteousness begining with the intent of the heart to the action performed.

1. The intent of the heart is included in such commands to love the Lord thy God with ALL thine heart, soul, mind, etc.

2. The intent of the heart is included and defined by such passages as that deal with purpose for why and what you do:

1Co 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

This is precisely why men are sinners by nature and not just by actions because the intent of their hearts comes under the definition of sin. This is why infants are born with a sinful nature because they do not do anything for the glory of God, and thus come short of the glory of God in everything they do.

This is precisely why Jesus says sin originates from the heart (Mt. 15) not the actions.

This is why Jesus said "there IS NONE good but one and that is God."

This is why Job said,

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. 5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;......Job 15: What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

This is why David said,

Psa. 58:2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.