Born in Sins

[The Biblicist]

HP: The manner in which conception takes place does not determine 'what' is conceived. I have more than enough farmer in me to know that with certainty.

What kind of gobblygook is this? The manner does determine "what" is conceived because what was conceived required the Holy Spirit involved in the manner it was conceived! If conception had not been by this "manner" then "what" was conceived may only be human without any divinity!

Moreover, what was conceived require the intervention of God in order to "prepare a body" that was sacrficially legal under law (heb. 10:5). Sacrifice under law had to be "without blemish" to be legal for sacrifice!

You cannot deny that Adam prior to the fall was 100% human can you?

You cannot deny that Adam after the fall was still 100% human can you?

Therefore you cannot assert that Hebrews 2;17 requires anything more than Christ was "made" 100% human can you??

Therefore the absence or presence of sin does not change human nature to be something other than human nature does it?

However, it is the human father that passes "death" IN THE BODY to the children rather than the mother:


17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Sin indwelling the body of Paul is called "This body OF DEATH" demonstrating that when "death" is passed down from the father to children in the body so is sin because "death by sin" - "By one man's offence MANY BE DEAD."

If your theory is correct then why did God have to provide Christ with a special body that was fit under sacrificial law????

Heb. 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

 

[Winman]

Psa 51:5 is a favorite proof-text of those who believe in OS, but they make it say what it does not say. David is confessing his sin with Bathsheba. In vs. 1 David says, "my transgressions", in vs. 2 he says, "mine iniquities" and "my sin". In vs. 3 David says, "my transgressions" and "my sin", in vs. 4 David says, "Against thee , thee only, have I sinned, and done evil in thy sight"

So David is clearly owning his own sin, he is not blaming another. But suddenly, in vs. 5 David blames his mother, or perhaps even God. It is not his fault, he was born a sinner, he is unable to do anything but sin because of the wicked nature he was born with.

Would that be a confession? Yet Calvinism teaches this is exactly what David was saying.

Clearly Calvinists and others pull this verse out of context to say what it does not. David was saying he was born into a sinful world, and this is how the Jews have interpreted this verse for 3000 years.

 

[DHK]

Psa 51:5 is a favorite proof-text of those who believe in OS, but they make it say what it does not say. David is confessing his sin with Bathsheba. In vs. 1 David says, "my transgressions", in vs. 2 he says, "mine iniquities" and "my sin". In vs. 3 David says, "my transgressions" and "my sin", in vs. 4 David says, "Against thee , thee only, have I sinned, and done evil in thy sight"

So David is clearly owning his own sin, he is not blaming another. But suddenly, in vs. 5 David blames his mother, or perhaps even God. It is not his fault, he was born a sinner, he is unable to do anything but sin because of the wicked nature he was born with.

Would that be a confession? Yet Calvinism teaches this is exactly what David was saying.

Clearly Calvinists and others pull this verse out of context to say what it does not. David was saying he was born into a sinful world, and this is how the Jews have interpreted this verse for 3000 years.

David's parents had a blessed marriage, and were not rebuked by anyone. David's psalm is a psalm of repentance. He is repenting of his own sin. His mother has nothing to do with this. Why would he be accusing his mother of sin? That would be totally out of context of the Psalm. He is thus looking down into the depths of his own soul admitting his own sinfulness before God--being born in sin, conceived in sin, being sinful right from birth.
Is he accusing his mother of sin? Not a chance!

 

[The Biblicist]

But suddenly, in vs. 5 David blames his mother, or perhaps even God. .

So you interpret this beginning with David confessing his sin and then turning and blaming God for being a sinner or blaming his mother for being a sinner? What kind of double talk is this?

What gives you any right to interpret this text to mean he is blaming either God or his mother? Did his mother control his conception?

Your whole argument is based upon a perversion of our position. You know very well our position is that David sinned in Adam by representation and by union of nature in Adam. So there is no blaming God or his mom according to our position and you know this and yet make such an accusation????

 

[Winman]

Paul saying that in his flesh dwells no good thing does not prove he was born that way. Is a drunk born with a bottle of whiskey in his hand? Is a junkie born with a needle in his hand? Sin can be indulged and become one's nature. No one is born addicted to porn, but if a man chooses to view it, it can become an addiction.
Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may you also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Another favorite verse used as a proof text for Total Depravity and Original Sin. Trouble is, the word "accustomed" means learned behavior.

We are born flesh with lusts and desires that tempt us to sin. And we are all subjected to a sinful world with many temptations. Every time you sin it becomes easier to do it again, this is known and observed by all men. We are weakened and corrupted by sin, and our willpower to resist is weakened. It soon becomes our nature to sin, we become "accustomed" to it.

 

[marke]

HP: I agree. Even the verse you mention does not support in any way the notion of original sin.

David was comparing TWO groups of individuals in this text as he did in other texts as well, Psalm 53 for instance. There he once again pits the “FOOL” in the following manner: Ps 53:3 EVERY ONE of THEM is GONE BACK (not born that way, but GONE BACK) they are altogether BECOME FILTHY; (not born filthy) there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

David was speaking directly to those he considered as fools and was by no means making any universal acknowledgement of original sin in both Psalms, 14 as well as 53.

Everyone born into the world inherits the sin of Adam (Rom. 5:19), but nobody is condemned because of Adam (Eze. 18:20). In one respect children are born 'innocent' in that none of their sins are anything but sins of ignorance and sins of ignorance are forgiven by the Lord on the basis of His atoning sacrifice (1 Ti. 1:13; Num. 22-30). All sins but one will be forgiven all men, but all men must be born again in order to go to heaven (Mark 3:28; John 3:3). The unforgivable sin is refusing to be born again at God's command and displaying their disrespect toward God and His Sacrifice on their behalf in that process of rejection.

Romans 3:12 says, "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable..." Verse 10 says, "There is none righteous, no, not one." Paul said, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Rom. 7:9). Everyone born in sin is a sinner who is under the grace of God in their ignorance (and even 'innocence', as little babies), but as they grow up they begin to sin on their own in willful sin, knowing they are sinning. This is called "going astray". Sinners don't become sinners by going astray, because they are already sinners by birth. The seriousness of sin (Rom. 7:13) is not known until God comes and turns on the light which lights every man born into the world (John 1:9).

Paul was alive without the law once in the sense that he was not made aware of his sin as it is seen from God's perspective, "but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Rom. 7:9). What did Paul do that plunged him into sin? Nothing. He was already in sin and didn't know it. It was the commandment that was making the move, bringing the glorious light of the gospel to his heart and exposing the exceeding sinfulness of his own sin that had been there the whole time.

In Matt. 19:17 in the KJV, we see the deity of Christ clearly 'hidden' in the verse (other modern versions have removed the 'hidden' declaration of Jesus' deity, but that is another issue.) The point is, that if Jesus is not God, then He is not good, because He plainly says "there is none good but one, and that is God." If sinners are not born in sin, then, at least until they 'fall into sin', they are God, according to this verse, which is a foolish interpretation.

 

[The Biblicist]

Heb. 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.


Gentleman (Winman; HP),

There are four facts you cannot possibly dispute if you are honest men and they are these:

1. Adam was 100% human before the fall

2. Adam was 100% human after the fall

3. Therefore, neither the presence or absence of sin in Adam altered him from being 100% human.

4. Therefore, neither the presence or absence of sin in Adam's descendants alter them from being 100% human in nature.



Since, these three things are undeniable facts, then Hebrews 2:17 cannot honestly be interpreted to demand that Christ was with or without sin but only 100% human in nature because the presence or absence of sin does not change Christ or any other man from being 100% human in nature.

Therefore, you are being dishonest with Hebrews 2:17 in your demand that Christ must have been made like unto his brethren in anything other than being 100% human in nature.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marke: In Matt. 19:17 in the KJV, we see the deity of Christ clearly 'hidden' in the verse (other modern versions have removed the 'hidden' declaration of Jesus' deity, but that is another issue.) The point is, that if Jesus is not God, then He is not good, because He plainly says "there is none good but one, and that is God." If sinners are not born in sin, then, at least until they 'fall into sin', they are God, according to this verse, which is a foolish interpretation.

HP: How in the world do you jump to that unwarranted conclusion?

 

[Winman]

So you interpret this beginning with David confessing his sin and then turning and blaming God for being a sinner or blaming his mother for being a sinner? What kind of double talk is this?

What gives you any right to interpret this text to mean he is blaming either God or his mother? Did his mother control his conception?

Your whole argument is based upon a perversion of our position. You know very well our position is that David sinned in Adam by representation and by union of nature in Adam. So there is no blaming God or his mom according to our position and you know this and yet make such an accusation????

If you are born a sinner, it is not Adam's fault, it is God's. I don't know everything about Calvinism, but I do know that Calvinism teaches man cannot change his nature, only God has that power.

We do not bear the sin of Adam or anyone else but ourselves. Eze 18:20 says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father or vice versa, but every "soul" that sinneth shall die.

And how can you die if you are born dead? That is nonsensical and logically impossible, yet that is what Calvinism teaches. I guess if you can swallow that falsehood, you can swallow anything.

Try going to the graveyard and killing someone buried there.

 

[The Biblicist]

Paul saying that in his flesh dwells no good thing does not prove he was born that way.

I did't say it does! That was not my point! My point was the body is the dwelling place and the law of sin in his body is called "death" by Paul.

Infants are born with "death" in their body and the proof is they die without making any personal violation of the law that condemns them to death! Hence, the source of their death in their body must come by birth. Hence, this is proof that "this body of death" comes by birth! It is "passed" upon all of Adam's poserity through reprodution process by the father to children, not through the mother to the children as the Word of God plainly says "By one MAN'S offence MANY BE DEAD" not "by one man and one woman many be dead."



This death principle is "passed" down through the reproductive cycle by Adam, the man, not through the female.

That is why God had to prepare him a body and why he had to be virgin born or else he too would be subject to sin/death in his body.

 

[marke]

HP: How in the world do you jump to that unwarranted conclusion?

I'm not following you. I may have posted a response on the wrong post. I was saying that all are born sinners because someone was saying (it appeared to me) that all men are not born sinners, which is, I think, silly.
Romans 3:10 says that there is none good, and Jesus said the same thing in Matt. 19:17, so it seems foolish to me to say that anyone is born good (sinless) in light of other scriptures. Since there is none good but God, then for men to be born good would force the interpretation that men are born 'God' before they 'go astray', which, I say again, is silly. people are either good or they are not. If they are good, then God is in them giving them goodness, but if they are not good then they are sinners.

 

[Winman]

I did't say it does! That was not my point! My point was the body is the dwelling place and the law of sin in his body is called "death" by Paul.

Infants are born with "death" in their body and the proof is they die without making any personal violation of the law that condemns them to death! Hence, the source of their death in their body must come by birth. Hence, this is proof that "this body of death" comes by birth! It is "passed" upon all of Adam's poserity through reprodution process by the father to children, not through the mother to the children as the Word of God plainly says "By one MAN'S offence MANY BE DEAD" not "by one man and one woman many be dead."



This death principle is "passed" down through the reproductive cycle by Adam, the man, not through the female.

That is why God had to prepare him a body and why he had to be virgin born or else he too would be subject to sin/death in his body.

You are confusing physical death with spiritual death. It is true we all die physically as a consequence of Adam's sin, just as a bus driver who gets drunk and drives off a cliff. His passengers die as a consequence of his sin, but they are not guilty of his sin.

God said all "souls" (not body) are his, the "soul" that sinneth, it shall die. (Eze 18:4)

Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of scripture. Calvinism teaches you are born dead, and this brings forth sin. The scriptures teach that we sin, and this brings forth death.

God said the soul that sinneth, it shall die. He DID NOT say the soul that is dead, it shall sin.

I am amazed how intelligent folks are so easily fooled by nonsensical and illogical falsehoods.

 

[DHK]

Paul saying that in his flesh dwells no good thing does not prove he was born that way. Is a drunk born with a bottle of whiskey in his hand? Is a junkie born with a needle in his hand? Sin can be indulged and become one's nature. No one is born addicted to porn, but if a man chooses to view it, it can become an addiction.
Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may you also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Another favorite verse used as a proof text for Total Depravity and Original Sin. Trouble is, the word "accustomed" means learned behavior.

We are born flesh with lusts and desires that tempt us to sin. And we are all subjected to a sinful world with many temptations. Every time you sin it becomes easier to do it again, this is known and observed by all men. We are weakened and corrupted by sin, and our willpower to resist is weakened. It soon becomes our nature to sin, we become "accustomed" to it.

Jeremiah 13:23 is not teaching about being accustomed. It is teaching about natures. The Ethiopian did not have to learn to become accustomed to the color of his skin.
The leopard did not have to learn to become accustomed to the pattern of his skin or hide.
Man does not have to become accustomed to the habit of his sinfulness. He, like the Ethiopian's skin, and the leopard's spots, have a nature that is sinful. All three are born that way, and therefore they are accustomed to: black skin, leopard's spots, and accustomed to the practice of sinning. It is their nature. Man has a sin nature. This is a very clear basic teaching on the depravity of man. Why try to pervert it?

Furthermore, Marke pointed out a very important truth.
What did Jesus say to the rich young ruler in Mark 10, who came running to Jesus saying: "Good Master, what must I do to have eternal life?"
Jesus said:
"Why do you call me good; there is none good but God."
If one is born without sin, without a sin nature, then he is God, or a god. Benny Hinn believes we are all "little gods running around on this earth." Is this also your belief?
Are we gods? This is the Mormon belief also.
Are infants and young children "good"? Are they god (s) ?
This is your belief???

 

[Winman]

I'm not following you. I may have posted a response on the wrong post. I was saying that all are born sinners because someone was saying (it appeared to me) that all men are not born sinners, which is, I think, silly.
Romans 3:10 says that there is none good, and Jesus said the same thing in Matt. 19:17, so it seems foolish to me to say that anyone is born good (sinless) in light of other scriptures. Since there is none good but God, then for men to be born good would force the interpretation that men are born 'God' before they 'go astray', which, I say again, is silly. people are either good or they are not. If they are good, then God is in them giving them goodness, but if they are not good then they are sinners.

Have you ever considered that the scriptures are speaking of adults, and not infants? Jesus said unless we be converted and become as "little children" we will not enter heaven?

Read Deut 1:39, God allowed the children to go into the promised land because they "had no knowledge between good and evil" in the day their parents sinned in the wilderness.

Read Jon 4:11 where God asked Jonah, "And should I not spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than six-score thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?"

Do you understand that question? God is asking Jonah whether it was JUST to spare Nineveh. Why was it just for God to be merciful to Nineveh? Because there were over 120,000 small children there who didn't know one hand from another. He compares them to cattle, which also have no concept of sin.

Why did Paul say he was alive before the commandment came once? God does not hold little children accountable until they are mature enough to undertand sin before God.

 

[The Biblicist]

You are confusing physical death with spiritual death.

No, I am not! Romans 7 has to do with the body not the soul. Hebrews 10:5 has to do with the body not the soul and hebrews 10:5 refers to what God prepared in the womb of Mary by virgin birth.

Paul's makes indwelling "sin" in the body equal to "this body of death" and yet his body had not yet died physically!!!! The point is that sin and death are inseparably united.

"BY one man's offence MANY BE DEAD" but you would interpret this text to actually mean "BY MANY MENS OFFENCES many be dead"

Infants have indwelling sin in their body because they die physically without any willful sin after birth! They possess "this body OF DEATH" and Paul says it is sin dwelling in his body that makes it "this body OF DEATH"!

It is true we all die physically as a consequence of Adam's sin, just as a bus driver who gets drunk and drives off a cliff. His passengers die as a consequence of his sin, but they are not guilty of his sin.

This illustration is inaccurate! The whole human nature was confined in one man and so when this one man sinned the whole human nature sinned and when this one man spiritually died it was the whole human nature that spiritually died in him. Thus "by one man's offence many BE DEAD."

God said all "souls" (not body) are his, the "soul" that sinneth, it shall die. (Eze 18:4)

This truth does not contradict the other truth! We are sinners by practice because we are sinners by nature and we are sinners by nature because we all existed as one unified humanity in one man - Adam - and when he sinned so did the whole human nature in him. Reproduction merely individualizes what was formerly one human nature in Adam.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Winman: You are confusing physical death with spiritual death. It is true we all die physically as a consequence of Adam's sin, just as a bus driver who gets drunk and drives off a cliff. His passengers die as a consequence of his sin, but they are not guilty of his sin.

God said all "souls" (not body) are his, the "soul" that sinneth, it shall die. (Eze 18:4)

Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of scripture. Calvinism teaches you are born dead, and this brings forth sin. The scriptures teach that we sin, and this brings forth death.

God said the soul that sinneth, it shall die. He DID NOT say the soul that is dead, it shall sin.

I am amazed how intelligent folks are so easily fooled by nonsensical and illogical falsehoods.

HP: Yet another excellent post with straight forward, understandable, Scriptural, and logical points. :thumbs:

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: Yet another excellent post with straight forward, understandable, Scriptural, and logical points. :thumbs:

Well, you guys have to be your own cheer club! However, more accurately you are like two guys washed overboard and neither can swim and so you take turns standing on each other's shoulders in order to get a gasp of air not realizing your drowning each other by turns. :laugh:

Or better yet, your like a firing squad assembled in a circle!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: If one is born without sin, without a sin nature, then he is God, or a god. Benny Hinn believes we are all "little gods running around on this earth." Is this also your belief?

HP: Nothing Winman said warrants such an absurd remark using something that can no more concluded from Scripture than a man in the moon. Lets see. I believe that would be called, a straw man argument based on meaningless rhetoric. :thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

If you interpret Romans 5 to be teaching we are unconditionally dead because of Adam, then you have to believe all men are unconditionally alive because of Christ.

This would teach universalism which we know is not true.

However, if it is understood that we are conditionally dead because we sinned like Adam, then we are conditionally alive if we believe like Jesus did.

As for God preparing Jesus a body, he did just that, Jesus was made flesh. God is a spirit and cannot be tempted, Jesus came in the flesh and could be tempted. He inherited his flesh from Mary.

The scriptures are clear, Jesus was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are, yet without sin. He could not have inherited this ability from the Father, the Father cannot be tempted (Jam 1:13).

Where did Jesus get the ability to be tempted?

 

[DHK]

If you interpret Romans 5 to be teaching we are unconditionally dead because of Adam, then you have to believe all men are unconditionally alive because of Christ.

All men are sinners, born with a sin nature. Keep it simple. Because man sinned, death came into the world. Death was passed upon all men, and along with that a sin nature. No man is good. Only God is good.

This would teach universalism which we know is not true.

No one on this board teaches universalism or believes in it.
Your logic is obviously wrong.

However, if it is understood that we are conditionally dead because we sinned like Adam, then we are conditionally alive if we believe like Jesus did.

Believe like Jesus?? Did Jesus need to be saved?

As for God preparing Jesus a body, he did just that, Jesus was made flesh. God is a spirit and cannot be tempted, Jesus came in the flesh and could be tempted. He inherited his flesh from Mary.

Exactly what Heb.2:17 says. He inherited his human nature from Mary.

The scriptures are clear, Jesus was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are, yet without sin. He could not have inherited this ability from the Father, the Father cannot be tempted (Jam 1:13).

Where did Jesus get the ability to be tempted?

He was human like we are. What is so difficult about this to understand.
He, like Adam, did not have a sin nature. Both were tempted. Adam fell, and Christ did not.
The result of Adam's fall is that he passed on to all generations a sin nature.
The result of Christ's life--death, burial and resurrection is that he passed on to all generations the opportunity to be saved.
Christ is the Second Adam.