Born in Sins

[The Biblicist]

Your argument here is worthless because it could also be said that Adam had an evil hearth. But since he was born spiritually alive then common sense dictates that his evil heart cannot be attributed to the way he was created.

You deal with every text based upon the presumption that it agrees with your position!

No post-fallen human being comes into the world as Adam did. No post-fallen human being is placed in the position of Adam whose decendents are directly affected by his singular "offence." No Post-fallen son of Adam stands in that relationship and yet you presume they do by making the prefallen Adam the pattern for all post-fallen mankind.

of course you deny what is said here:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

According to your view those who are described as "His briothers" are "by nature" the children of wrath. You say that the Lord Jesus has 100% human nature and according to you ideas the very human nature His brothers is described as being children of wrath.

so if we are to believe your ideas we must stand reason on its head and believe that the Lord Jesus can be described as a child of wrath.

You confuse what is essential to be 100% human in nature with indwelling sin which is an added parasite to human nature. According to your confusion Pre-fallen Adam would not be 100% human in nature because he did not have the parasite of indwelling sin.

Isaiah 48:8 puts your doctrine in the grave - "called transgressors from the womb."

God is calling them that and God never slanders anyone. If it is a metaphor then there MUST be a LITERAL background or else it cannot be a metaphor!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No post-fallen human being comes into the world as Adam did.

He was created in the likeness of God and so are we.

No post-fallen human being is placed in the position of Adam whose decendents are directly affected by his singular "offence."

A person does not become spiritually dead until he sins:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

A person must be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually as a result of his own sin.

You confuse what is essential to be 100% human in nature with indwelling sin which is an added parasite to human nature.

A person is either by nature a child of wrath or he is not. And you say that a person's very nature from birth is that which can only be described as "children of wrath." So if you are right then the Lord Jesus' "brothers" were children of wrath and since it is said that He was made like them IN EVERYWAY we must believe that He too was made in such a way where He can only be described as a child of wrath:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

 

[Winman]

Biblicist, why don't you show scripture that directly says we are born dead in sins instead of pulling scripture out of context that is not discussing this subject? You know, scripture like this;

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

This verse is directly addressing being "made" by God. There are many scriptures that say God has made us, or formed us in the womb, such as Psa 139:13-14 where David said he was fearfully and wonderfully made by God. Ecc 7:29 says God has made us "upright", not wicked sinners. And the word "they" shows this is speaking of all men, and not Adam only.

I hardly think David would believe it wonderful to be made a wicked, and totally depraved sinner.

So, here are scriptures that directly deal with us being made by God, and they say we are made upright, and fearfully and wonderfully made. That sounds pretty good to me.

Show some scriptures directly dealing with the subject like this.

 

[glfredrick]

He was created in the likeness of God and so are we.

That has no bearing on being born into sin, as the Bible clearly states.

A person does not become spiritually dead until he sins:

So, when exactly does one first sin and become then a "sinner?" If there is a time, then what happens before that time? Could we then send infants straight to the arms of Jesus by removing them from this life before they sin while they are still in perfection?

I predict that you will revolt against that concept... I also predict that you cannot tell me when a person actually becomes a sinner.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

A person must be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually as a result of his own sin.

Not according to the Bible. If we are EVER spiritually alive, then could we inherit eternity at that point without Christ? You go and tell Him to get down off of the cross... I would never dare!

A person is either by nature a child of wrath or he is not. And you say that a person's very nature from birth is that which can only be described as "children of wrath." So if you are right then the Lord Jesus' "brothers" were children of wrath and since it is said that He was made like them IN EVERY WAY we must believe that He too was made in such a way where He can only be described as a child of wrath:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

Okay, now you are getting it... Except that you disavow EXACTLY what God says about us. You seem to feel that we have some right standing before God without needing Christ! Really? Then you are the only one beside Christ, who is a special case, born free of sin because of the heritage of the conception of the Holy Spirit. In fact, we ARE ALL born children of wrath. The Bible is SO clear. We have ALL sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And, the wages of sin is death! But for Christ who came and paid our sin-debt, atoned for us, took from us the curse of sin and brought it into Himself then crucified it, and further, He imputes to us His perfect righteousness, our ONLY HOPE!

 

[glfredrick]

Biblicist, why don't you show scripture that directly says we are born dead in sins instead of pulling scripture out of context that is not discussing this subject? You know, scripture like this;

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

This verse is directly addressing being "made" by God. There are many scriptures that say God has made us, or formed us in the womb, such as Psa 139:13-14 where David said he was fearfully and wonderfully made by God. Ecc 7:29 says God has made us "upright", not wicked sinners. And the word "they" shows this is speaking of all men, and not Adam only.

I hardly think David would believe it wonderful to be made a wicked, and totally depraved sinner.

So, here are scriptures that directly deal with us being made by God, and they say we are made upright, and fearfully and wonderfully made. That sounds pretty good to me.

Show some scriptures directly dealing with the subject like this.

I have never seen you do a better job of taking the Scriptures out of context! You have set a new standard even for you!

Let's see what Solomon penned just before your cited verse...

Eccles. 7:20 (ESV)
Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.

Solomon is comparing our sin to our original creation. God indeed did create Adam upright, but Adam -- the one man with a choice in the matter -- fell into sin and thereafter all men born of Adam are born in sin. In no way is Solomon making your case that we are "upright" before God. In the entire book of Ecclesiastes Solomon is lamenting the fact that whatever we try or do, we are in sin against God. That is the theme of the book! All is foolishness and folly. All is pride. All is worthless, save what God does.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That has no bearing on being born into sin, as the Bible clearly states.

According to your discredited ideas a person is made in the likeness of God but yet that person is created spiritually dead.

Some people will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous!

So, when exactly does one first sin and become then a "sinner?"

You are doing your best to try to change the subject because you have no answer to the fact that Paul says that all die because all have sinned:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

In regard to this verse I said:

A person must be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually as a result of his own sin.

Here is your response to the sure word of Scripture:

Not according to the Bible.

i just quoted the Bible and you just flat out deny that verse.

If we are EVER spiritually alive, then could we inherit eternity at that point without Christ? You go and tell Him to get down off of the cross... I would never dare!

If a child dies before he sins then he will die in a state of innocence and only someone with a warped sense of God will assert that God will send him to hell because the guilt of Adam's sin has been imputed to him.

In fact, we ARE ALL born children of wrath. The Bible is SO clear.

If you are right that we are all made with a nature which is described as "children of wrath" then we must stand reason on its head and believe that the Lord Jesus was also made that way:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

We have ALL sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And, the wages of sin is death!

That is right. A person does not die spiritually until he sins. That proves that a person is not born spiritually dead because in order for a person to die spiritually as a result of his own sin he must forst be alive spiritually.

And here Paul is speaking of his own experience in regard to spiritual death and life:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

 

[DHK]

According to your discredited ideas a person is made in the likeness of God but yet that person is created spiritually dead.

Man is no longer born in the image of God; he is born in the image of Adam, as Seth was. See Genesis chapter five. Our image has been marred by sin; by the curse.

You are doing your best to try to change the subject because you have no answer to the fact that Paul says that all die because all have sinned:

Paul said, "Christ came to save sinners of whom I am chief. Your theology says that infants and young children are not sinners and therefore not in need of a Saviour. Therefore Christ did not come to die for them. They are not under the blood if they should die. Logically they would have no hope of getting into heaven according to you. Only those under the blood would be able to get into heaven. But Christ came to die for sinners. You say they are not sinners. Those infants therefore will be cast into hell. It is a terrible outlook you have on life.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

(Ro.5:12).

In regard to this verse I said:

A person must be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually as a result of his own sin.

That is your inference. The verse teaches that because of Adam's sin we are spiritually dead from birth and thus separated from God. Death, therefore has passed upon all men. When did Adam die? When he sinned or 930 years later?
"In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
It is not speaking of a physical death. He was separated from God as soon as he ate of the fruit, and yet could talk to God. How is that possible? He was separated from God by sin. Death is separation. Unless a person is born again he cannot become a child of God. Children are born outside of the family of God. They need to be born again.

If a child dies before he sins then he will die in a state of innocence and only someone with a warped sense of God will assert that God will send him to hell because the guilt of Adam's sin has been imputed to him.

You make assumptions that are not true.
First there is no such thing as innocence. We are all under a curse; not just us, but all of creation. Read Romans 8. "The whole creation groans and travails in pain until now." There is no innocence. We fall under the curse of Adam, born with a sin nature. No one said that God would send him to Hell. Did David have that idea about his child, when his child died, even though he mourned and wept that the child's life might be spared. No. Afterward he was at peace that he would see the child after death.

If you are right that we are all made with a nature which is described as "children of wrath" then we must stand reason on its head and believe that the Lord Jesus was also made that way:

Of course he is right that we born children of wrath. Do you read the Bible. It is written in Eph.2:2,3. Surely you don't deny that do you?
Your misinterpretation of Heb.2:17 is what is wrong. That verse simply teaches that Jesus had a human nature as we all do. He was tempted in every way such as we are. (Heb.2:18; 4:15ff.) Why do you ignore context and these other verses which so clearly define verse 17 and the purpose for which he came to be like his brethren. If he was like his brethren in every way, it would exclude you, unless you are a Jew. For he was only like the Jewish race, born a Jew. You are taking the verse to an extreme.

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people"

(Heb.2:17).

Good verse. Now rightly divide the word of truth.

That is right. A person does not die spiritually until he sins. That proves that a person is not born spiritually dead because in order for a person to die spiritually as a result of his own sin he must forst be alive spiritually.

Why did Jesus say to the Pharisees:
You are of your Father the devil.
They were born into Satan's family. They needed to be born into God's family. Nicodemus was one of those Pharisees.

And here Paul is speaking of his own experience in regard to spiritual death and life:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

He is giving his own testimony. It is the law that reveals our sinfulness. That is all the passage teaches. He also said in the same passage that "it is sin that dwelleth in me."
It is sin that dwells in every person from infancy onward.

 

[DHK]

HP: Where is your source of information concerning Finney? Are you simply trying to slander him or can you show where what you say was actually what he tried to accomplish?

In chapter six of David Beale's book "In Pursuit of Purity," he writes:

The more radical wing of the New England Theology, the followers of Nathaniel W. Taylor (1786-1858) of Yale Divinity School at New Haven, Connecticut, insisted that all sin is voluntary, and not inherited. According to this New Haven doctrine, which is very similar to the ancient heresy called Pelagianism, man is sinful because he sins; man does not sin because he is sinful. It proponents, such as N.W. Taylor and Charles G. Finney (1792-1875), denied the doctrine of the imputation of Adam’s sin and guilt to his posterity.

This man was a heretic.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Wiman: I hardly think David would believe it wonderful to be made a wicked, and totally depraved sinner.

HP: Your logic and wisdom is in fine order my friend!:thumbsup:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: In chapter six of David Beale's book "In Pursuit of Purity," he writes:

Quote:......
The more radical wing of the New England Theology, the followers of Nathaniel W. Taylor (1786-1858) of Yale Divinity School at New Haven, Connecticut, insisted that all sin is voluntary, and not inherited. According to this New Haven doctrine, which is very similar to the ancient heresy called Pelagianism, man is sinful because he sins; man does not sin because he is sinful. It proponents, such as N.W. Taylor and Charles G. Finney (1792-1875), denied the doctrine of the imputation of Adam’s sin and guilt to his posterity.
This man was a heretic.

HP: That has nothing to do with the original comment you made. You simple choose to slander a man of God without the slightest valid reason. May God reward you according to your slander, and He will.

 

[DHK]

HP: That has nothing to do with the original comment you made. You simple choose to slander a man of God without the slightest valid reason. May God reward you according to your slander, and He will.

Look up the word slander. I gave you a viable source as to what he believed. If you don't believe that source look it up yourself. He was the president of Oberlin College. Do a search on that college and see what you come up with. Prove me wrong. Stating a man's beliefs is not slander.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Man is no longer born in the image of God; he is born in the image of Adam, as Seth was. See Genesis chapter five. Our image has been marred by sin; by the curse.

Of course man is still made in the likeness of God, as witnessed by the words of james here:

"With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness" (Jas.3:9).

Adam was created by God and that creation is described as being "very good.: The result of his creation is exactly like ours:

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them" (Gen.1:27).

Paul said, "Christ came to save sinners of whom I am chief. Your theology says that infants and young children are not sinners and therefore not in need of a Saviour. Therefore Christ did not come to die for them.

The God Who I worship is a God of love and grace and he will not condemn an infant child to hell for the sin which adam committed centuries ago.

You say they are not sinners.

Since "sin" is defined as 'lawlessness" only those who have personally been lawless can be defined as "sinners."

The verse teaches that because of Adam's sin we are spiritually dead from birth and thus separated from God. Death, therefore has passed upon all men.

Is English your second language? Anyone with the slightest degree of the knowledge of English knows that these words are saying that all men die because all have sinned, not that all have died as a result of Adam's sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

When did Adam die? When he sinned or 930 years later?
"In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
It is not speaking of a physical death. He was separated from God as soon as he ate of the fruit, and yet could talk to God. How is that possible? He was separated from God by sin.

Yes, and all those who sin are separated from God because of their own sin and not because of Adam's sin:

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law" (Ro.2:12).

Death is separation. Unless a person is born again he cannot become a child of God.

The words born again" are referring to "regeneration" and here Paul speaks about his own regeneration which saved him:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

The word "regeneration" is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and </I>genesis</I>.
Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit."

If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit.

Of course he is right that we born children of wrath. Do you read the Bible. It is written in Eph.2:2,3. Surely you don't deny that do you?
Your misinterpretation of Heb.2:17 is what is wrong. That verse simply teaches that Jesus had a human nature as we all do.

If you are right then the Lord Jesus was made with a nature like His brothers and according to you that nature is one where a person is described as "children of wrath:

"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others" (Eph.2:3).

You do not have a reasonable answer to Hebrews 2:17 since you continue to insist that we are we are from birth by nature the children of wrath. I say that the lord Jesus was indeed made like us IN EVERY WAY because we are created in the likeness of God. We do not become children of wrath until we sin and it is at that time when our nature changes because it is then when we die spiritually:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

You need to get help from someone who understands basic English on the meaning of this verse because it does NOT teach "that because of Adam's sin we are spiritually dead," as you imagine.