The Implications of Original Sin

[The Biblicist]

The Federal Headship Theory is just one of many theories of Original Sin. Many scholars who believe in OS reject it. A. H. Strong a Reformed Baptist theologian objected to this theory.



If you do a study of Original Sin you will find there are many various OS theories. They are usually argued from presuppositions and assumptions, not scripture. You will find that theologians have never come to agreement over it.

Neither you or Strong answered my questions based upon Biblical facts not suppositions?


Does the Bible teach that any other man in history stands in a relationship to "MANY" in regard to his own actions?

1. Those in Ezekiel 18:20 don't

2. Only Christ does?

3. Why would Paul, the same writer of Romans 5:12 call Christ the "last Adam" and the "second" Adam if Adam did not stand in a similar position to "many" as Christ did by his actions - "For IN Adam all die but IN Christ all shall be made alive" - I Cor. 15:22

Why are not "all" in you or me? Why just Adam and Christ? Why not Eve? By the way how does ALL get "IN" Adam?

Who put Adam and Christ in that special relationship with "ALL" and "MANY"???? Why aren't you or me in that relationship by our own personal actions?????

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Some seem to find it hard to believe. or at least admit to, that Eve sinned in her disobedient rebellion. Here is yet another notion that needs to be considered. There was something evident in their lives, both in the life of Eve as well as in Adam that clearly testifies to their personal sin that occurred at the time of their disobedience. You wil find it clearly shown in Scripture. What was it?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

HP: I have heard it suggested by many in my life that Eve did not sin willfully. Where do they get that from? What scripture ever represents Eve's sin as not being willful? Some must feel that deception in and of itself eliminates willful sin. Why is that true or not true?

Where does Scripture define sin as something not willful?

 

[Winman]

Neither you or Strong answered my questions based upon Biblical facts not suppositions?


Does the Bible teach that any other man in history stands in a relationship to "MANY" in regard to his own actions?

1. Those in Ezekiel 18:20 don't

2. Only Christ does?

3. Why would Paul, the same writer of Romans 5:12 call Christ the "last Adam" and the "second" Adam if Adam did not stand in a similar position to "many" as Christ did by his actions - "For IN Adam all die but IN Christ all shall be made alive" - I Cor. 15:22

Why are not "all" in you or me? Why just Adam and Christ? Why not Eve? By the way how does ALL get "IN" Adam?

Who put Adam and Christ in that special relationship with "ALL" and "MANY"???? Why aren't you or me in that relationship by our own personal actions?????

I wouldn't necessarily call it Headship, I would call it two shepherds. When we follow Adam in disobedience, we suffer the judgment he brought. When we follow Christ in obedience, we come under the free gift of justification to life he bought.

Romans 5:15-21 are verses that are both the same and opposite. It is like the colors black and white. Black absorbs 100% of the color spectrum, while white reflects 100% of the color spectrum. They are the same in that 100% of the color spectrum is affected, but they are also exact opposites in that black absorbs light, while white reflects it.

The problem is that many interpret these verses in Romans 5 to say the judgment of Adam is unconditionally imputed to us, but the free gift of righteousness through Christ is conditionally imputed through faith. This is an inconsistant intepretation.

If both judgment and righteousness are imputed unconditionally, then you have universalism which we know is error.

However, if we see that both judgment and righteousness are conditional, then there is no violation to these verses. We come under judgment when we sin in like manner as Adam did, and we are imputed righteousness when we are obedient as Christ was and believe.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

You cannot intepret the first "all men" in this verse to mean 100% of mankind, and then interpret the second "all men" to mean only some men. They are the same exact words in the Greek, they are used in the same verse and context. So, if judgment comes unconditionally upon all men, then the free gift of righteousness must also come unconditionally upon all men.

But interpret this verse with the view that both are conditional and the problem is solved. Those who sin like Adam come under judgment, those who believe like Jesus did are imputed righteousness.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Excellent points Winman, stated in a simple understandable manner. :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I am still waiting for one brave soul to show us where Scripture ever states or implies that sin is transmitted via the seed of man to his posterity. We are looking for a Scripture that points to the manner in which sin is transmitted from the father to the child as original sin suggests. Where is the Scripture that clearly indicates the physical flesh as the residence of sin? Where do the Scriptures state clearly that we sin because all sinned in Adam? What we are trying to do is separate the theories of man from the truths actually spelled out in Scripture. Those that insist OS is the truth, to the castigation and rebuke of all others, labeling those who disagree with he notion of OS as heretics, blasphemers etc, stand up and be counted. Show us the way to truth. Show the truth of the matters I mention here, not from some web site or commentary of men or book written by man, but by the plain teaching of the Word of God.

 

[The Biblicist]

I wouldn't necessarily call it Headship, I would call it two shepherds.

That is not what Scripture calls it. Even though Christ is called a "shepherd" but when he is compared to Adam he is NEVER called such. Instead he is called "the Last Adam" or the "Second man" as though no other's can be added to this category as they are a class all to their own. However, every pastor is a shepherd and there are many shepherds.

Secondly, all are said to be "IN" these two men and that langauge is NEVER used of any other men. All mankind are said to be "IN" Adam and yet that is not true of you or me.

Thirdly, the consequences of their own personal actions are attributed to "many" and "all"! However, that is NEVER said of anyone other man.

So your philosophical response is simply not true.

The problem is that many interpret these verses in Romans 5 to say the judgment of Adam is unconditionally imputed to us, but the free gift of righteousness through Christ is conditionally imputed through faith. This is an inconsistant intepretation.

If both judgment and righteousness are imputed unconditionally, then you have universalism which we know is error.

However, it is true that both judgement and righteousness are imputed unconditionally. However, not "ALL" that are "IN" Adam are "IN" Christ but "ALL" in Adam are unconditionally imputed his consequenes and "ALL" in Christ are imputed his consequences!

What you fail to see is the transition between the terms "many" and "all" in verse 17. Prior to verse 17 Paul uses the term "many" but after verse 17 he changes to the term "all" whereas in his summary conclusion in verse 19 he returns to the term "many" once again:

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Verse 17 qualifies the "many" Christ acted in behalf to those who actual are recipients or those who "receive..grace...and...the gift of righteousness' and who will actually reign with him. This qualifies who the "all" are in verse 18 "the free gift came upon ALL men". This excludes "all men" who are not actual recipients of grace.

The receipents of grace are determined by election "the election of grace" (Rom. 11:5) and the very implication of grace is "unconditional favor" or favor not based upon merit.

 

[Winman]

That is not what Scripture calls it. Even though Christ is called a "shepherd" but when he is compared to Adam he is NEVER called such. Instead he is called "the Last Adam" or the "Second man" as though no other's can be added to this category as they are a class all to their own. However, every pastor is a shepherd and there are many shepherds.

The term Federal Head or Headship is not found in the scriptures at all, it is a man-made term. But the way, this view was not even formulated until the 17th century.

Secondly, all are said to be "IN" these two men and that langauge is NEVER used of any other men. All mankind are said to be "IN" Adam and yet that is not true of you or me.

Can you be "in Christ" unconditionally? Then what makes you think anyone is "in Adam" unconditionally?

Thirdly, the consequences of their own personal actions are attributed to "many" and "all"! However, that is NEVER said of anyone other man.

So your philosophical response is simply not true.

Saying in Adam many were made sinners is a figure of speech. It is like saying in Darwin many were made evolutionists, or in Karl Marx many were made communists. We are not made righteous unconditionally in Christ, we must be obedient and believe as he did. Likewise, we must sin in like manner as Adam did to come under judgment. That is exactly what Rom 5:13-14 is explaining.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Many misinterpret what Paul is saying and showing here. Paul is showing there was law in the world before Moses' written law. This is proved by the fact that men from Adam to Moses died. This was natural law which Paul had already explained in Romans 1 & 2. Men can know God exists by the witness of creation, they know perversion is "unnatural", and they have the law written upon their hearts. Pharaoh knew it was wrong to have Sarah when he found out. Sodom and Gomorrah were called exceedingly sinful before the written law.

Verse 14 says that these persons DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's sin. This destroys Augustine's interpretation, if Adam's sin were imputed to us, then we would be guilty of his sin as if we had actually committed it ourselves.

So, these verses interpreted properly refute your view, not agree with it.

However, it is true that both judgement and righteousness are imputed unconditionally. However, not "ALL" that are "IN" Adam are "IN" Christ but "ALL" in Adam are unconditionally imputed his consequenes and "ALL" in Christ are imputed his consequences!

Salvation is conditional, you must believe on Jesus to be saved. That is a condition.

What you fail to see is the transition between the terms "many" and "all" in verse 17. Prior to verse 17 Paul uses the term "many" but after verse 17 he changes to the term "all" whereas in his summary conclusion in verse 19 he returns to the term "many" once again:

I see the difference. I could use this against you, it says only "many" were made sinners. It does not say "all" were made sinners. Read again and see for yourself.

I bet you never noticed that before, did you?

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Verse 17 qualifies the "many" Christ acted in behalf to those who actual are recipients or those who "receive..grace...and...the gift of righteousness' and who will actually reign with him. This qualifies who the "all" are in verse 18 "the free gift came upon ALL men". This excludes "all men" who are not actual recipients of grace.

I disagree and so do many prominent theologians.

The receipents of grace are determined by election "the election of grace" (Rom. 11:5) and the very implication of grace is "unconditional favor" or favor not based upon merit.

Election is according to foreknowledge, God foresees who will trust in Jesus and chooses them.

 

[The Biblicist]

The term Federal Head or Headship is not found in the scriptures at all, it is a man-made term. But the way, this view was not even formulated until the 17th century.

Neither is the term "trinity"! But you explain how it is only TWO MEN in history that all other men are said to be "IN" one or the other. You provide a term that describes that obvious INCLUSIVE representative capacity! You provide a term that describes why the personal actions of only these two men are consequence for all other men in history? You provide a term that explains why Christ is called "The Last Adam" or "second man" when there are literally billions of humans in history. Since you fellas interpet Heb. 2:17 to make every single human in history to be identical to Jesus Christ then you provide a term that explains why every single human being in history is not born "the LAST Adam" is not called the "SECOND man"?????

Saying in Adam many were made sinners is a figure of speech. It is like saying in Darwin many were made evolutionists, or in Karl Marx many were made communists. We are not made righteous unconditionally in Christ, we must be obedient and believe as he did. Likewise, we must sin in like manner as Adam did to come under judgment. That is exactly what Rom 5:13-14 is explaining.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Did Darwin make them evolutionists by birth? Did Karl marx make them communists by birth? Infants DIE at birth! Thus your analogies are rediculous because what Adam did actually effected all who are "in Adam" becuase "all in Adam DIE".

Verse 14 says that these persons DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's sin. This destroys Augustine's interpretation, if Adam's sin were imputed to us, then we would be guilty of his sin as if we had actually committed it ourselves.

Death occurred in them due to violation of Genesis 2:6 by Adam rather than violation of law given to man to Moses

I see the difference. I could use this against you, it says only "many" were made sinners. It does not say "all" were made sinners. Read again and see for yourself.

No you don't! Verse 19 is the summary of verses 12-18. The "many" have been defined in regard to Christ in verse 17 who are the "all" in regard to Christ in verse 18. Verse 19 simply presents "many" has it has been redefind in verse 17 from verses 15-16. Hence, it is like Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 15:22 "for ALL in Adam die but ALL in Christ are made alive." Not all who are IN Adam are the same ALL in Christ.

Election is according to foreknowledge, God foresees who will trust in Jesus and chooses them.

Still election is "OF GRACE" and grace means unconditioned favor, unmerited favor. Foreknowledge is knowledge beforehand of God's eternal purpose (Rom. 8:28-29) as God's plan/purpose/blue print precedes foreknowledge in Romans 8:28-29.

 

[Winman]

The term Federal Head or Headship is not found in the scriptures at all, it is a man-made term. But the way, this view was not even formulated until the 17th century.

Neither is the term "trinity"! But you explain how it is only TWO MEN in history that all other men are said to be "IN" one or the other. You provide a term that describes that obvious INCLUSIVE representative capacity! You provide a term that describes why the personal actions of only these two men are consequence for all other men in history? You provide a term that explains why Christ is called "The Last Adam" or "second man" when there are literally billions of humans in history. Since you fellas interpet Heb. 2:17 to make every single human in history to be identical to Jesus Christ then you provide a term that explains why every single human being in history is not born "the LAST Adam" is not called the "SECOND man"?????

Again, is anyone "in Christ" unconditionally? If you have to believe to be in Christ, then you have to sin to be in Adam. Paul nowhere says Adam's sin is imputed to us, and he had just used the word six times in chapter 4.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Now, isn't is amazing that Paul spoke so often about imputation in chapter 4 concerning Christ, but the only time he uses this word in chapter 5 is when he says sin is NOT IMPUTED.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So, Paul NEVER says Adam's sin is imputed to us in this chapter. Not once.

Did Darwin make them evolutionists by birth? Did Karl marx make them communists by birth? Infants DIE at birth! Thus your analogies are rediculous because what Adam did actually effected all who are "in Adam" becuase "all in Adam DIE".

It is a figure of speech. Theologians realize this. This from Barnes Notes

When we say that thousands have been made infidels by the writings of Paine and Voltaire, we make no affirmation about the mode, but about the fact. In each of these, and in all other cases, we should deem it most inconclusive reasoning to attempt to determine the mode by the preposition by; and still more absurd if it were argued from the use of that preposition that the sins of the seducer were imputed to the young man; or the opinions of Paine and Voltaire imputed to infidels.

Death occurred in them due to violation of Genesis 2:6 by Adam rather than violation of law given to man to Moses

False, Paul specifically says they did not sin after the similitude of Adam. They died for their own sins.

No you don't! Verse 19 is the summary of verses 12-18. The "many" have been defined in regard to Christ in verse 17 who are the "all" in regard to Christ in verse 18. Verse 19 simply presents "many" has it has been redefind in verse 17 from verses 15-16. Hence, it is like Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 15:22 "for ALL in Adam die but ALL in Christ are made alive." Not all who are IN Adam are the same ALL in Christ.

It says "many", not "all".

Still election is "OF GRACE" and grace means unconditioned favor, unmerited favor. Foreknowledge is knowledge beforehand of God's eternal purpose (Rom. 8:28-29) as God's plan/purpose/blue print precedes foreknowledge in Romans 8:28-29.

Grace is accessed by faith. No faith, no grace.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. God does not give grace to unbelievers.

 

[The Biblicist]

Again, is anyone "in Christ" unconditionally? If you have to believe to be in Christ, then you have to sin to be in Adam.

Election is of grace (Rom. 11:5) Faith is of grace (Rom. 4:16). Hence, we are in Christ unconditionally or by unmerited favor by an act of unconditional election and soverign creation (Eph. 2:10).

Paul nowhere says Adam's sin is imputed to us, and he had just used the word six times in chapter 4.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Now, isn't is amazing that Paul spoke so often about imputation in chapter 4 concerning Christ, but the only time he uses this word in chapter 5 is when he says sin is NOT IMPUTED.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The law he is referring to was Mosaic Law as verse 14 shows. Hence, sin was not imputed because of violation of Mosaic Law. It was imputed "by one man's offence" of Genesis 2;16 law!

The sin nature is "passed" down as the sin nature is the law of sin or INDWELLING DEATH (Romans 7:14-25).

False, Paul specifically says they did not sin after the similitude of Adam. They died for their own sins.

False, and the death of infants prove it to be false because physical death is not due to your own sins.

It says "many", not "all".

Go back and read the commentary I gave on verses 15-19. Verse 17 defines "many" to "all" those in each man respectfully (1 Cor. 15:22).

Grace is accessed by faith. No faith, no grace.

"It is of faith that it might be OF GRACE" - Rom. 4:16.

 

[Winman]

Did Darwin make them evolutionists by birth? Did Karl marx make them communists by birth? Infants DIE at birth! Thus your analogies are rediculous because what Adam did actually effected all who are "in Adam" becuase "all in Adam DIE".

First, you misquote this verse. The order is important.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Notice it says in Adam "all die". It does not say all "are dead" as you argue. It shows the persons shall die (future). You cannot die unless you are alive. This is the nonsense of OS, how can the scriptures say if we sin we will die if we are already dead? A dead person cannot die, once you are dead you are dead.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

How can you die if you are already dead? Nonsensical!

Second, 1 Corinthians 15 is not speaking of spiritual death whatsoever, it is speaking of the resurrection of our physical bodies. Read the chapter, that is the theme of this chapter.

So, you pull scripture out of context to say something it is not saying. It is not saying we are born dead in Adam.

Children die because they are born with a corruptable body. Even born again Christians have a corruptable body and die.

 

[The Biblicist]

First, you misquote this verse. The order is important.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Notice it says in Adam "all die". It does not say all "are dead" as you argue. It shows the persons shall die (future). You cannot die unless you are alive. This is the nonsense of OS, how can the scriptures say if we sin we will die if we are already dead? A dead person cannot die, once you are dead you are dead.

The context of I Corinthians 15 is about the death and resurrection of the physical body.

However, Romans 5:15 does not use the future tense but the Aorist tense proving that "by one man's offence MANY BE DEAD"

Hence this proves SPIRITUAL DEATH of many did not come due to their own personal offence but "BY one man's offence." Hence the "death" that is "passed" down is SPIRITUAL DEATH "by one man's offence"

 

[Winman]

Election is of grace (Rom. 11:5) Faith is of grace (Rom. 4:16). Hence, we are in Christ unconditionally or by unmerited favor by an act of unconditional election and soverign creation (Eph. 2:10).

No, grace is accessed by faith. I showed you the scripture, you cannot show otherwise. Eph 2:8 says we are saved by grace "through faith". In other words, you have to go through the door of faith to access this grace.

The law he is referring to was Mosaic Law as verse 14 shows. Hence, sin was not imputed because of violation of Mosaic Law. It was imputed "by one man's offence" of Genesis 2;16 law!

Again, Paul directly says they did not sin Adam's sin. Sin was in the world before Moses' law, God called the men of Sodom exceedingly sinful.

Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

I think even you know that God is not speaking about Adam eating a forbidden fruit here.

The sin nature is "passed" down as the sin nature is the law of sin or INDWELLING DEATH (Romans 7:14-25).

God has made man upright (Ecc 7:29)

False, and the death of infants prove it to be false because physical death is not due to your own sins.

Children are born with a corruptable body just like the rest of us. Animals die, and they are not moral agents that sin. Corruption passed on the whole universe because of Adam's sin and the tree of life was taken away. This corruption applies even to unliving things, stars burn out, metals corrode and rust. It is the 2nd law of Thermodynamics.

Go back and read the commentary I gave on verses 15-19. Verse 17 defines "many" to "all" those in each man respectfully (1 Cor. 15:22).

I have a difficult time keeping up with current posts, I am not going to search. Besides, I already know your position and disagree. I have seen your view many times from many others, you have been influenced by others just as they have.

"It is of faith that it might be OF GRACE" - Rom. 4:16.

Exactly, faith is not a work. If you had to work for salvation, then salvation would be of works, not grace. But you have to believe to receive grace from God, without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. The very definition of grace is "favor".

 

[Winman]

The context of I Corinthians 15 is about the death and resurrection of the physical body.

However, Romans 5:15 does not use the future tense but the Aorist tense proving that "by one man's offence MANY BE DEAD"

Hence this proves SPIRITUAL DEATH of many did not come due to their own personal offence but "BY one man's offence." Hence the "death" that is "passed" down is SPIRITUAL DEATH "by one man's offence"

It does not say in Adam all are dead. That is what it should say if your view was correct, but it isn't. And this chapter is speaking of physical death and the corruption caused by Adam's sin. It is not speaking of spritual death whatsoever.

All of Calvinism is built like this, pulling verses out of context and interpreting them to say what they are not saying.

 

[DHK]

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

HP: I have heard it suggested by many in my life that Eve did not sin willfully. Where do they get that from? What scripture ever represents Eve's sin as not being willful? Some must feel that deception in and of itself eliminates willful sin. Why is that true or not true?

What Scripture did you just quote?
Adam was not deceived! He deliberately rebelled against God. He chose to rebel against God without any outside influence.
Eve was tempted, even tricked into eating of the fruit. Though she did wrong the sin was imputed to Adam, for he was the one who directly rebelled against God.

I suggest you read the entire account to see what God says, and what God does with each individual involved in the Fall instead of aimlessly philosophizing on this board. I would rather discuss the Scripture than your philosophy. Please read the account first.

 

[The Biblicist]

It does not say in Adam all are dead.

Your problem is that "all die" IN Adam! Death is confined to being IN Adam! Hence, all men are IN Adam because only IN ADAM do all men die.

Secondly, the same writer (Paul) talking about the same person (Adam) and the same subject (death) says:

"BY one man's offence MANY BE DEAD"

So all "IN" Adam not only die but are already "dead" - Hence, they come into this world SPIRITUALLY DEAD and that is precisely why they go on to DIE physically because both spiritual death and physical dying of all men are confined to being "IN Adam"

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your problem is that "all die" IN Adam! Death is confined to being IN Adam! Hence, all men are IN Adam because only IN ADAM do all men die.

WRONG AGAIN!

Paul makes it plain that death comes to all because all sinned:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12; KJV).

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (NIV).

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" (NASB).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: "all die" IN Adam!

HP: Where do Scriptures state that? Lets see, Enoch never died, even physically. Elijah never died, even physically. Those that will be raptured might have died spiritually when they sinned, (just as our first parents did when they sinned, (at least in a sense) ) but they will not die physically that I can read. Help us out here with these clear exceptions to that hard and fast statement you make.

 

[DHK]

HP: Where do Scriptures state that? Lets see, Enoch never died, even physically. Elijah never died, even physically. Those that will be raptured might have died spiritually when they sinned, (just as our first parents did when they sinned, (at least in a sense) ) but they will not die physically that I can read. Help us out here with these clear exceptions to that hard and fast statement you make.

A foolish response indeed. All Christians will be resurrected.
Oh wait. Enoch and Elijah missed the boat. They are exceptions. They won't be resurrected. Such absurdities just to gain a "theological" point where there is none.