Romans 16:20 is a Strong Proof of Christ's 70 AD Return

[Logos1]

Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

The Apostle Paul is very clear in his message to his Roman audience that the atoning work of Christ will crush Satan soon and under their feet.

There is no way to suggest Paul means a future generation or a long time off is when Christ will crush Satan. Obviously Paul was a full Preterist and he not present day bible teachers was the inspired one of the Holy Spirit. His inspiration by the Holy Spirit makes his assertion indisputable, immutable, and inerrant.

If Paul were to be wrong on this point that would mean the bible is not inerrant and then everything we believe as Christians could be honestly disputed. The only way to maintain the inerrancy of the bible and its divine inspiration is to accept the words of Paul and accept Christ came back soon as in the lives of his first century audience as Paul is saying here.

And then we have plenty of related verses:

Matthew 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Matthew 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Matthew 26:63-64 But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." 64Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Christ saying 7 different times in the book of Revelation that he is coming soon.

And there are other verses still.

When you see the power, immediacy, and authority of these verses there is no honest way to read them and not realize that Christ promised a first century return in the lives of first century believers. It was simply a different type of return than what is most often expected. It was a return in 70 AD in judgment against Jerusalem and marked the time that all things prophesied are fulfilled.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

That's very interesting, but I think you need to answer my question on the other thread before starting another. Why, some suspicious souls might think you were trying to cut and run.

Here's the question again. How come the Gospel had been (according to you) preached in all the Roman world ('proclaimed to every creature under heaven') by around AD 60-61, yet the Apostles hadn't finished going through all the towns in Israel by AD 70?
Thanks for an early response.

Steve

 

[Logos1]

Like a little yappy dog following me around--LOL

That's very interesting, but I think you need to answer my question on the other thread before starting another. Why, some suspicious souls might think you were trying to cut and run.

Here's the question again. How come the Gospel had been (according to you) preached in all the Roman world ('proclaimed to every creature under heaven') by around AD 60-61, yet the Apostles hadn't finished going through all the towns in Israel by AD 70?
Thanks for an early response.

Steve

Thank you Steve for exposing the bankruptcy of futurism. You don't have any legit answer to these words of Christ and the Apostles you just like to dispute them.

I indulged you over and over and over on the previous post but no matter how many times I answer you, you just run around yapping about not getting answer so on this thread instead of giving into such childishness I'm just going to ignore you until you produce a legit response to your answer or produce a legit response to this thread.

So go ahead and test me out.

I'll brush you aside like an elephant ignoring a little yappy dog following him around.

Good day to you old friend.

You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular

Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular

A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

 

[Old Union Brother]

.......Here's the question again. How come the Gospel had been (according to you) preached in all the Roman world ('proclaimed to every creature under heaven') by around AD 60-61, yet the Apostles hadn't finished going through all the towns in Israel by AD 70?
Thanks for an early response.

Steve

I'm not Logos nor a full preterist but I do read the Bible and if you will read Acts 2 it speaks of devout men out of every nation under heaven:

(Act 2:1) And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

(Act 2:2) And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

(Act 2:3) And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

(Act 2:4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

(Act 2:5) And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

 

[marke]

Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

The Apostle Paul is very clear in his message to his Roman audience that the atoning work of Christ will crush Satan soon and under their feet.

There is no way to suggest Paul means a future generation or a long time off is when Christ will crush Satan. Obviously Paul was a full Preterist and he not present day bible teachers was the inspired one of the Holy Spirit. His inspiration by the Holy Spirit makes his assertion indisputable, immutable, and inerrant.

If Paul were to be wrong on this point that would mean the bible is not inerrant and then everything we believe as Christians could be honestly disputed. The only way to maintain the inerrancy of the bible and its divine inspiration is to accept the words of Paul and accept Christ came back soon as in the lives of his first century audience as Paul is saying here.

And then we have plenty of related verses:

Matthew 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Matthew 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Matthew 26:63-64 But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." 64Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Christ saying 7 different times in the book of Revelation that he is coming soon.

And there are other verses still.

When you see the power, immediacy, and authority of these verses there is no honest way to read them and not realize that Christ promised a first century return in the lives of first century believers. It was simply a different type of return than what is most often expected. It was a return in 70 AD in judgment against Jerusalem and marked the time that all things prophesied are fulfilled.

I must really be behind the times. I have never encountered any Christian teaching anywhere that says Jesus has already returned to earth for His 1,000 year rule with all His saints. Is that what is being suggested in this post?

 

[InTheLight]

I must really be behind the times. I have never encountered any Christian teaching anywhere that says Jesus has already returned to earth for His 1,000 year rule with all His saints. Is that what is being suggested in this post?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism

 

[JesusFan]

Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

The Apostle Paul is very clear in his message to his Roman audience that the atoning work of Christ will crush Satan soon and under their feet.

There is no way to suggest Paul means a future generation or a long time off is when Christ will crush Satan. Obviously Paul was a full Preterist and he not present day bible teachers was the inspired one of the Holy Spirit. His inspiration by the Holy Spirit makes his assertion indisputable, immutable, and inerrant.

If Paul were to be wrong on this point that would mean the bible is not inerrant and then everything we believe as Christians could be honestly disputed. The only way to maintain the inerrancy of the bible and its divine inspiration is to accept the words of Paul and accept Christ came back soon as in the lives of his first century audience as Paul is saying here.

And then we have plenty of related verses:

Matthew 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Matthew 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Matthew 26:63-64 But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." 64Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Christ saying 7 different times in the book of Revelation that he is coming soon.

And there are other verses still.

When you see the power, immediacy, and authority of these verses there is no honest way to read them and not realize that Christ promised a first century return in the lives of first century believers. It was simply a different type of return than what is most often expected. It was a return in 70 AD in judgment against Jerusalem and marked the time that all things prophesied are fulfilled.

jesus said to Apostle John that he was coming/returning 'quickly", but that did NOT mean that he was coming back right then and there, but that when he did return, would happen real fast!

Apostle paul backed this up , as in the rapture, in 'twinking" of an eye...

Just as "all" does not refer to actual All in the Bible, same way quickly/soondoes NOTalways refe to the immediate return, but its emmience...

Almost all early Church fathers held to that viewpoint, and the Apostles did also!


besides, since John wrote revelation to us in AD 90-95, IF he was still expected jesus returning, did he miss the early return AD 70?

 

[asterisktom]

Almost all early Church fathers held to that viewpoint, and the Apostles did also!


besides, since John wrote revelation to us in AD 90-95, IF he was still expected jesus returning, did he miss the early return AD 70?

Sentence #1 is a bland assertion without proof. It is its own refutation.

The second point is also unfounded. I (and others I believe) have written here on this, showing that Revelation was written in the 60s. If you are interested I will hunt for the post, complete with attestations from Early Church Fathers.

 

[Logos1]

Good to see you Tom

Tom,

What a pleasant Christmas surprise to see your return to the board! Hope you are more than just well. Hope FL is being good to you.

I checked out your site not long ago and thought maybe you were off to do missionary work in China or something of that nature. Maybe it was just a missionary trip.

The boards are always blessed with your depth, knowledge, and wisdom. Good to see you back.

I was planning on cooking some futurist goose on this thread for Christmas, but even more enjoyable than that is seeing you back and posting again.

Merry Christmas

Logos1

 

[asterisktom]

Tom,

What a pleasant Christmas surprise to see your return to the board! Hope you are more than just well. Hope FL is being good to you.

I checked out your site not long ago and thought maybe you were off to do missionary work in China or something of that nature. Maybe it was just a missionary trip.

The boards are always blessed with your depth, knowledge, and wisdom. Good to see you back.

I was planning on cooking some futurist goose on this thread for Christmas, but even more enjoyable than that is seeing you back and posting again.

Merry Christmas

Logos1

Hi Logos1,

It is good seeing you being busy here. I hope to also write as I have time and opportunity, but the future is uncertain (as far as Internet is concerned). I am still in the US - visiting family in Wichita - but we will be flying out to China in just 3-5 days. Of course, you should know that I could not be a missionary, seeing that we Preterists have no hope. :tongue3::tongue3:

Actually, I will be teaching English. I already changed my location on this board because I may not have opportunity to even get online - especially at first.

Merry Christmas to you, as well.
And Merry Christmas to all the rest of you who want a Merry Christmas from me.:godisgood:

 

[annsni]

I must really be behind the times. I have never encountered any Christian teaching anywhere that says Jesus has already returned to earth for His 1,000 year rule with all His saints. Is that what is being suggested in this post?

Yep - It's called Preterism and I've recently learned of it as well.

To think that Satan is crushed and Christ is reigning in this world as it is scares me.

 

[Grasshopper]

That's very interesting, but I think you need to answer my question on the other thread before starting another. Why, some suspicious souls might think you were trying to cut and run.

Here's the question again. How come the Gospel had been (according to you) preached in all the Roman world ('proclaimed to every creature under heaven') by around AD 60-61, yet the Apostles hadn't finished going through all the towns in Israel by AD 70?
Thanks for an early response.

Steve

Martin, you are aware there are passages that say that exact thing aren't you?

 

[asterisktom]

Yep - It's called Preterism and I've recently learned of it as well.

To think that Satan is crushed and Christ is reigning in this world as it is scares me.

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them." Isa. 11:6

"The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain," says the LORD." Isa. 65:25

These passages actually deal with both of your sticking points.

 

[Grasshopper]

jesus said to Apostle John that he was coming/returning 'quickly", but that did NOT mean that he was coming back right then and there, but that when he did return, would happen real fast!

That is not what it meant. If there was any doubt, verse 3 of the same passage cleared it up.

Apostle paul backed this up , as in the rapture, in 'twinking" of an eye..

.

Might want to re-read that passage and find where Paul even mentions a rapture. Amazing what presuppositions will do.

Just as "all" does not refer to actual All in the Bible, same way quickly/soondoes NOTalways refe to the immediate return, but its emmience

...

If it means imminence then that means it could have occurred at any time. If it could have happened at anytime then that means all the signs and events that had to occur before the imminent event must have already happened. S this your stance?

Almost all early Church fathers held to that viewpoint, and the Apostles did also!

If they did then they would hold to at least some sort of preterist view. According to Dispies I learned from growing up, since 1948 many signs and events have been fulfilled that were occur before an event you say was imminent 2000 years ago. Don't you see your problem.

besides, since John wrote revelation to us in AD 90-95, IF he was still expected jesus returning, did he miss the early return AD 70?

Many Theologians who are not in any way FP see the events of AD70 as "a" coming of Christ.

 

[OldRegular]

The Apostle Paul addresses the problem of heresy in his letter to Titus:

Titus 3:10, 11 KJV
10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

LOGOS you have been admomished a number of times about your heretical denial of the Word of God, making God a liar!

 

[Logos1]

Thank you oldregular for putting in the classification as Christ

The Apostle Paul addresses the problem of heresy in his letter to Titus:

Titus 3:10, 11 KJV
10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

LOGOS you have been admomished a number of times about your heretical denial of the Word of God, making God a liar!

Embracing my inner heretic

Oldregular your eschatology has been a journey down the primrose path for two thousand years. It has never proved anything, never been right, and has a perfect record of abject failure for two thousand years and counting. How’s that futurism working out for you?

It is indeed odd to embrace an eschatology that has not a single bible verse to support it. You know as well as myself there is no bible verse where Christ says he will come back a long time in the future, in another generation, or anything else to put it in our future.

You never get to embrace the victory of Christ over death and being reconciled back to God’s presence because you have to wait for Christ to return for that to happen. When you die you can look forward to Sheol if you are right.

Preterists celebrate Christ’s victory and look forward to heaven upon death.

I’m embracing heresy if your style of dogma is main stream eschatology.

Of course the Jewish leaders considered Christ heretical as well—eventually Christianity became the gold standard of religion. Eventually Preterism will become the gold standard of eschatology as well.

Thanks again oldregular, I consider it an honor to be in the same classification as Christ and Luther! We heretics stick together down through history against the dogmas of our day!


I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo....Oldregular

You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular

Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular

A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

 

[Logos1]

Romans 16:20 a north star of eschatology

Looking a little deeper into Romans 16.

In the verses leading up to verse 20 in 3 thru 16 Paul is saying hello to specific people who are alive and acquaintances of his. Obviously this is as directed at a contemporary audience as it is possible to be—no possibility of claiming this is directed at a future audience.

In 17 and 18 he warns them against divisive people. In 19 he rejoices over them.

In 20 he promises them Satan will soon be crushed under their feet.

In 21-23 he sends them greetings from Timothy and other co-workers.

There has never been any commentary suggesting that the book of Romans was not written to the Roman Christians both gentile and Jew who were alive at the time the letter was written.

This is rock solid and undeniable proof that Paul believed, taught, and wrote Christ was coming back in the lives of people living at that moment in history—not in the distant future. Paul (as were all the other apostles) a full, hyper Preterists. Paul is good company to be in. Romans 16:20 is another example of where to anchor our eschatology.

Hopefully oldregular will find something heretical in this—that is like steering by the North Star—you know you are on the right course when he calls you heretical.


I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular

You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular

Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular

A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

 

[marke]

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them." Isa. 11:6

"The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain," says the LORD." Isa. 65:25

These passages actually deal with both of your sticking points.

We have friends in China, Scott and Marilee Norman who, like my wife, graduated from Bob Jones in the mid 70s.

 

[asterisktom]

The Apostle Paul addresses the problem of heresy in his letter to Titus:

Titus 3:10, 11 KJV
10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

LOGOS you have been admomished a number of times about your heretical denial of the Word of God, making God a liar!

OldRegular needs to reacquaint himself with the rules of this board:
----------------------------------------------
"This post is to serve as a reminder that we all have agreed to abide by certain rules.

There seems to be a tendency for theological disagreements to become personal in nature. Let us all remember that we are allowed to vigorously debate the theological topic at hand and vehemently appose doctrines with which you disagree, after all this is a debate forum. BUT, WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PUBLICLY ATTACK THE CHARACTER, PERSONHOOD OR MOTIVES OF ANOTHER MEMBER.

This includes, but is not limited to, statements such as:

"You are just too stubborn to see things any other way"
"Your hatred for me and my view is clouding your judgement"
"Do you even know how to read?"
"Clearly you are just obsessed with this topic."
"Obviously you don't believe in the God of the bible."
"You are a liar."
"You are a heretic.""

 

[asterisktom]

We have friends in China, Scott and Marilee Norman who, like my wife, graduated from Bob Jones in the mid 70s.

Sounds interesting. My wife and I also graduated from BJU. My years were from 1978-1983. I will have to look them up.

In my years at BJ I was much involved in Europe Prayer Band. I always assumed, as did my wife, that we would go back to Germany as missionaries. But we never did. Now I will be teaching English in China. Funny how unexpected turns of events happen.