Dead Spiritually as a Result of Adam's Sin?

[The Biblicist]

Giving someone the knowledge that they are spiritually death CANNOT be described a bringing a death upon them.

Paul is telling the reading what he "found" in regard to his own personal experience but you don't get that do you? If this was not true then it is pure nonsense to say the law was given to reveal the knowledge of sin and thus of condemnation under sin! It wasn't given for God to see all men are sinners and condemned under law to death! Dahhhh!

You talk about common sense but when it comes to the Scriptures you are continually throwing your reason to the wind! You refuse to even attempt to deal with what I said about this passage:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

I have dealth with this passage TWICE already in the context it was placed in your previous posts! Do you read your posts completely through????

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul is telling the reading what he "found" in regard to his own personal experience but you don't get that do you?

Of course I get the fact that you have provided nothing that even hints that when Paul said that the commandment 'slew" him that he was saying that it was his knowledge was "killed"!

I have dealth with this passage TWICE already in the context it was placed in your previous posts! Do you read your posts completely through????

You never addressed my remarks on these verses. Instead, you changed the subject in the hope that no one would notice that you failed to address what I said:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

Since the "life" spoken of in the same passage is in regard to "spiritual" life then it is evident that the "death" is in reference to "spiritual" death. But you deny the symmetry of this passage because you refuse to compare spiritual things with spiritual:

"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Cor.2:13).

According to Paul the "spirit giveth life." The "life" speaks of a real "life" that comes to a person and since it is the Spirit that gives it it is a "spiritual" life.

Paul would not be contrasting a "life" which actually brings life to a person and is "spiritual" with a "death" which does not actually befall a person and which is not "spiritual."

But your whole interpretation of this passage depends on him doing just that!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor David: "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins...among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath" - Eph. 2:1;3

Paul indicates men who were spiritually dead are made alive by God. He also says we all once conducted ourselves as those who were spiritually dead. Finally Paul state that 'by nature' (in our unregenerate fallen estate) we are objects of God's wrath.

HP: Forcing the text that uses the word 'nature' to indicate sinners from birth or original sin is not gaining that idea from the text itself. Pastor, you can do that as well as apply any presupposition to any text, but what you cannot say is that the text, apart from your presupposition, makes the case you are making as to it supporting the notion derived from your presupposition, not the text itself.

Let me illustrate. Take my position that the nature we are born with is indeed depraved, not spiritually or 'in sin', but rather depraved via natural physical propensities directly due to the fall of man. Now I could indeed indicate that the verse proves my point in precisely the same way you use the text to support OS. What I am getting at is that the text itself indeed speaks of a 'nature' but what it DOES NOT state or imply is what the nature consists of, physical depravity or sin as you would indicate. Are you following this point?

Scripture indicates that once stained with sin one cannot be anything other than a sinner apart from Christ. If OS is correct, God is seen as punishing man for something he in no way can avoid. That is at antipodes with any semblance of justice. If God can be just and punish man for an avoidable fate, we could not in any manner have a conception of justice period. That is not the case. God has indeed instilled into the heart of everyman a sense of immutable justice. It testifies that if one does anything blameworthy or praiseworthy, one must be the first cause of their moral intents. OS destroys all God-given instilled wisdom of that sense of justice.

The bottom line is, when a text can be used to prove, or even if it can be said to prove, "either point," it proves neither. Using the words 'by nature' does not establish, BY THE TEXT ITSELF, OS, nor does it establish the depravity being limited to the physical realm as I believe it indicates, 'in and of the text itself.'

This is an important issue, Can we reason together?

 

[The Biblicist]

Of course I get the fact that you have provided nothing that even hints that when Paul said that the commandment 'slew" him that he was saying that it was his knowledge was "killed"!

IF the law is given that the sinner might come to a KNOWLEGE of sin, obviously BEFORE the law provides that KNOWELDGE he does not KNOW he is a sinner does he???

IF you believe you are really "BLAMELESS TOUCHING THE LAW" you really don't see, comprehend, know, understand that you are really condemned by the law do you???????

So, put your thinking cap on for just a moment. If the law promises eternal life to those who keep it and you believe you are "BLAMELESS" in keeping it then what do you believe the law's verdict concerning you is???? Do you believe it is condemnation unto death or do you believe it is justification unto LIFE????

Now, if the Holy Spirit takes the law and reveals to you that you are not "BLAMELESS touching the law" but a sinner, what change has occurred in your mind??? Have you not FOUND out by personal experience what you thought had been LIFE was now DEATH? Have you not in YOUR OWN MIND gone from LIFE to DEATH in regard to the Law?

I think you can see clearly such must be the case with any lost person who really believes they are "BLAMLESS" in keeping the Law but then come to the KNOWLEGE they are not "blameless" but blamed by the law as sinners. What they perceived as their basis for ETERNAL LIFE has now become their basis for ETERNAL DEATH.

You cannot dispute that Philippians 3:3-6 begins from the time he was an infant under the law (eighth day circumcision under law) to persecution of the church at Jerusalem he beleived he was "BLAMELESS touching the law" and thus perceived the Law as the basis for ETERNAL LIFE.

Therefore, his experience in Romans 7 had to occur some time between leaving Jerusalem on the road to Damascus as he walked thinking about the gospel testimonies he had repeatedly heard from those he killed and persecuted. Jesus said, he had been kicking against the pricks of his own concience as that knowledge of "blameless" had been eroded by a new knowledge of CONDEMNATION in so much that when Christ revealed himself he was ready to say "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?"

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

 

[The Biblicist]

You never addressed my remarks on these verses. Instead, you changed the subject in the hope that no one would notice that you failed to address what I said:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

Since the "life" spoken of in the same passage is in regard to "spiritual" life then it is evident that the "death" is in reference to "spiritual" death. According to Paul the "spirit giveth life." The "life" speaks of a real "life" that comes to a person and since it is the Spirit that gives it it is a "spiritual" life.

Paul would not be contrasting a "life" which actually brings life to a person and is "spiritual" with a "death" which does not actually befall a person and which is not "spiritual."

That is correct. He is contrasting life and death in their fullest meaning. In the case of death it is inclusive of spiritual, physical and eternal death as death in its fullest sense is the final ministration of the covenant of law upon sinners.

However, no SINNER can achieve spiritual life under the law for the simple reason also stated in the context. His heart has a spiritual veil over it so that he cannot see - spiritual inability - and thus cannot do what the law requires to be justified under the law for spiritual life.

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

The spiritual blindness to the Old Covenant law, is the SAME spiritual blindness to the gospel of Christ. There is no RENEWED blindness but the SAME blindness that accompanies indwelling sin by its very nature. Spiritual death IS among other things, spiritual blindness to the things of God.

This spiritual blindess is self-evident in infants and thus indwelling sin "transgressors from the womb" (Isa. 48:8).

Infants by nature resist authority and the very first word they normally master is the word "NO"! Why? Because their behavior is naturally evil and parents must repeatedly tell them "no"!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That is correct. He is contrasting life and death in their fullest meaning. In the case of death it is inclusive of spiritual, physical and eternal death as death in its fullest sense is the final ministration of the covenant of law upon sinners.

So according to your illogical mind it is the new testament which brings physical life:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

According to your unbelief it is the law which brings physical death. Since you prove that you have absolutely no interst in dealing with what Paul said at 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 in an honest manner let us look at what he says here once again:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

Here Paul says that the commandment did not fulfill its purpose because it was to result in life but instead it resulted in death:

"I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death" (Ro.7:10; NIV).

But you say nothing about this fact and say that the commandment did indeed do what was intended of it:

The Law is a ministration of death because it REVEALS the sin nature when spiritual dead people attempt to KEEP IT!

You have said that Paul did not die in anyway despite his words to the contrary. You say that it was his wrong knowledge" that died.

What is Paul referring to when he speaks of "life" in the following verse?:

"I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death" (Ro.7:10).

If you are right and the only thing that the commandments are for is to bring people the knowledge of sin then what does Paul mean when he says that it "was intended to bring life"?

And please do not tell me that it was intended to bring "physical" life!

 

[The Biblicist]

So according to your illogical mind it is the new testament which brings physical life:

What you are failing to comprehend is that the New Covenant brings FULLNESS of life. Since a person is spiritually dead but physically alive they are first spiritually quickened and later after the body dies they are physically quikened in so much that the principle of death is entirely removed.

The Old Covenant brings FULLNESS of death. It begins with SPIRITUAL death, then proceeds to PHYSICAL death and finalizes in ETERNAL SPIRITUAL/PHYSICAL death.

So simple, so obvious and yet you have no eyes to see even the simple truths of God's word because your mind is blinded by Satan.

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

Come on Jerry, show some intellectual honesy! You totally ignored my exposition on this passage! Why? I believe you cannot possibly answer it IF either objectivity or honesty is the measure of one's answer! Please prove me wrong and respond to my post paragraph by paraghraph.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Come on Jerry, show some intellectual honesy! You totally ignored my exposition on this passage!

I did not ignore it because here is what I said:

So according to your illogical mind it is the new testament which brings physical life:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

According to your unbelief it is the law which brings physical death. You evidently believe that foolishness because you say:

The Old Covenant brings FULLNESS of death. It begins with SPIRITUAL death, then proceeds to PHYSICAL death and finalizes in ETERNAL SPIRITUAL/PHYSICAL death.

All men are appointed to die (except those who will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air) as witnessed by the words here:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb.9:27).

A man will die and that physical death has nothing at all to do with the Ten Commandments. The very thing which can keep man's mortal body from dying is no longer available to him:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).

You have been told this fact previously but evidently it went in one ear and out the other.

"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge" (Ro.10:2).

 

[The Biblicist]

I did not ignore it because here is what I said:

So according to your illogical mind it is the new testament which brings physical life:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

According to your unbelief it is the law which brings physical death. You evidently believe that foolishness because you say:

The Old covenant brings death in all of its forms. Genesis 2:16 is law and the condition of life under law. The New Covenant brings life eternal in all of its forms.

Lost Man is under the old covenant now and the proof is death as death is the wages of sin and sin is the transgression of the law and we are dying physically because we have died spriitually and thus we are separated from God and who is LIFE and thus the source of ALL LIFE.

Born again man is under the new covenant and now has SPIRITUAL LIFE, and will have ETERNAL PHYSICAL LIFE and so yes the New Covenant is the source of ALL ETERNAL LIFE in spirit and in body.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Old covenant brings death in all of its forms.

You keep repeating the same old nonsense while you cony=tinue to ignore the facts which prove you are wrong:

All men are appointed to die (except those who will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air) as witnessed by the words here:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb.9:27).

A man will die and that physical death has nothing at all to do with the Ten Commandments. The very thing which can keep man's mortal body from dying is no longer available to him:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).

You close your eyes to these truths because you have no answer to them.

 

[The Biblicist]

You keep repeating the same old nonsense while you cony=tinue to ignore the facts which prove you are wrong:

All men are appointed to die (except those who will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air) as witnessed by the words here:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb.9:27).

Not so! In the rapture the law of sin at work - corruption - is destroyed in the body as it would if the body went to the grave. In the rapture the soul is completely freed from that indwelling principle of corruption found in the body.

A man will die and that physical death has nothing at all to do with the Ten Commandments. The very thing which can keep man's mortal body from dying is no longer available to him:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).

You close your eyes to these truths because you have no answer to them.

Eternal life in the body is obtained in glorification not by eating this tree or any other tree.

In the eternal age the nations of the saved partake of the leaves but the overcomers in New Testament congregations partake of the fruit of the tree of life (Rev. 3:7; 22:2). However, eternal life in the body was obtained prior to the judgement seat of Christ in the rapture/resurrection long before entering into the new earth or the New Jerusalem. Corruption and death is defeated by rapture and resurrection in a glorified body.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Not so! In the rapture the law of sin at work - corruption - is destroyed in the body as it would if the body went to the grave. In the rapture the soul is completely freed from that indwelling principle of corruption found in the body.

So are you saying that those who will be caught up to meet the Lordd Jesus in the air will die?

That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. Of course they will not die because at that time they will put on new, glorified bodies like the Lord Jesus' body.

Eternal life in the body is obtained in glorification not by eating this tree or any other tree.

I never said that it was obtained in that way!

Here are my words again:

A man will die and that physical death has nothing at all to do with the Ten Commandments. The very thing which can keep man's mortal body from dying is no longer available to him:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).

Now please actually address what I said here without misrepresenting what I said. Why should anyone believe that it is the Ten Commandments which is responsible for a man's "physical" death with Genesis 3;22-24 in view? And with this verse in view:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb.9:27).

 

[The Biblicist]

So are you saying that those who will be caught up to meet the Lordd Jesus in the air will die?

That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. Of course they will not die because at that time they will put on new, glorified bodies like the Lord Jesus' body.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

I never said that it was obtained in that way!

Here are my words again:

A man will die and that physical death has nothing at all to do with the Ten Commandments.

"for the wages of sin is death" - Rom. 6:23

"sin is the transgression of the law" - 1 Jn. 4:6

The law was violated in Genesis 2:16

"By one man sin entered the world and death by sin" - Rom. 5:12

"By one man's offence many BE DEAD" - Rom. 5:15

The very thing which can keep man's mortal body from dying is no longer available to him:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).

You claim that Jesus is not one whit difference than we are? How did his body gain victory over death and the grave? He didn't eat any tree because his body was in the grave? Neither will we have to eat any tree for our DEAD bodies to live again.

Now please actually address what I said here without misrepresenting what I said. Why should anyone believe that it is the Ten Commandments which is responsible for a man's "physical" death with Genesis 3;22-24 in view? And with this verse in view:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb.9:27).

When was it "appointed"? It was appointed by Genesis 2:16 and "by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin."

What was Genesis 2:16? It was the Law of God established in Eden.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You claim that Jesus is not one whit difference than we are? How did his body gain victory over death and the grave?

How?

Evidently you have not ever seen the following verse:

"Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead" (Gal.1:1).

You might learn something if you would just read the Bible.

You are continually trying to prove what is said here is in error:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

You are continually trying to prove that the Lord Jesus was made like us in only some ways!

"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim.3:7).

 

[Winman]

You are continually trying to prove what is said here is in error:

He has to. If he admits men are not born with a sin nature, then he could agree that Jesus took on the same NATURE as the seed of Abraham (not Adam as he falsely argues). But the scriptures say exactly that, that Jesus took on the nature of the seed of Abraham and that it behoved him in ALL THINGS (that would include his nature) to be made like unto his brethren.

But if he admits that men are born without a sin nature his Calvinist/Reformed view collapses like the house of cards it is.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

These are very inconvenient verses for Calvinists.

 

[The Biblicist]

How?

Evidently you have not ever seen the following verse:

"Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead" (Gal.1:1).

You might learn something if you would just read the Bible.

Funny, I thought for sure you said the reason that people suffer physical death is because the source for eternal life for the physical body is no longer available? You did not say it was "The Father" which was that source but "the tree of life"!

So again, How did Christ's physical body have victory over physical death when it was impossible for him to eat of the tree of life since his body was in the grave and not much eating goes on there!!!!!!

You are continually trying to prove what is said here is in error:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

You are continually trying to prove that the Lord Jesus was made like us in only some ways!

"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim.3:7).

No, I am not contradicting it at all. I am simply contradicting the utter extreme stupidity of your application of it. Sin is something that "DWELLS IN MY MEMBERS" rather than part of human nature. It is a parasite just as a disease that has entered the body.


Isa. 1:5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

A sick man is not less human than a healthy man both are 100% human in nature. Indeed, sin in man is likened unto a man who is sick from head to toe:

Sin is likened unto dirt that needs to be WASHED away. A dirty man is no less human than a clean man?

Isa. 1:16 ¶ Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;......
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

So your understanding and application of Hebrews 2:17 is stupid, unscriptural and fanatical.

Pre-fallen Adam was 100% human in nature yet "without sin" dwelling in his members. Christ was made like prefallen Adam and the evidence is overwhelming that he was made like pre-fallen Adam as he is explicitly called "the LAST Adam" and the "second" man.

However, you rediculous theology has every single human being born into the world a potential Jesus Christ. They come already spiritual born of God, incapable of sinning willfully from the womb to late in childhood because they have no comprehension of sin and thus could equally continue without sin just like Jesus Christ.

Your silly theology not only demands the potentiality of every man keeping the law sinlessless but that very potentiality demands the absurd and rediculous idea that every human being potentially can go to heaven without needing any Savior.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Funny, I thought for sure you said the reason that people suffer physical death is because the source for eternal life for the physical body is no longer available?

Funny how you have the habit of quoting my words and then just ignoring what I quoted. Here are your words which I quoted and did respond to:

You claim that Jesus is not one whit difference than we are? How did his body gain victory over death and the grave?

I actually respond to what you said unlike you! here is what I said and here is what you ignored:

How?

Evidently you have not ever seen the following verse:

"Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead" (Gal.1:1).

You might learn something if you would just read the Bible.

So your understanding and application of Hebrews 2:17 is stupid, unscriptural and fanatical.

Pre-fallen Adam was 100% human in nature yet "without sin" dwelling in his members.

Here is your own definition in regard to what you mean when you say that sin dwells in the flesh:

Those "in the flesh" are those in the sphere controlled by the lusts, cravings and avenues of temptation provided by the five senses found in the flesh. Or under the controlling influence of indwelling sin.

Were not Adam and Eve also 'in the flesh" BEFORE the fall?

Were they not controlled by lusts, cravings and avenues of temptation provided by the five senses found in the flesh? How else can their sins be accounted for?

So according to your own definition of the meaning of the phrase "in the flesh" even Adam and Eve existed in a "lost condition" before the fall:

There is a distinction between "IN" the flesh versus "walking AFTER" the flesh. The former describes the lost man's spiritual condition as a sphere of existence.

 

[The Biblicist]

Funny how you have the habit of quoting my words and then just ignoring what I quoted. Here are your words which I quoted and did respond to:

I actually respond to what you said unlike you! here is what I said and here is what you ignored:

How?

Evidently you have not ever seen the following verse:

"Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead" (Gal.1:1).

You might learn something if you would just read the Bible.

You are continually trying to prove what is said here is in error:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

You are continually trying to prove that the Lord Jesus was made like us in only some ways!

You had previously stated the reason men physically die is not due to violating the law of God but due to the fact they no longer have access to the tree of life! Right??? Do I have to go find your quotations that you repeated in three different posts to tack your fins down to your own words???????????

So, if phyiscal death is due to not having access to the tree of life and the eating of the tree of life is what provides ETERNAL LIFE IN THE PHYSICAL BODY then how did Christ obtain PHYSICAL LIFE when his body died and was put into the grave! He couldn't eat of the tree of life in order to obtain eternal life for his dead body becuase it was in the grave!!

Hence, eating of the tree of life is not why we die physically because the resurrection body that has eternal life was not obtained by eating the tree of life. It was obtained by the power of God as you rightly say. So, physical death is not due to failure to eat of the tree of life but is the direct result of violating God's law in Genesis 2:16 and eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Violation of God's law brings physical death just as Paul says:

"BY one man sin entered into the world and DEATH by sin...and death passed upon all men.....By one man's offfence MANY BE DEAD"

His argument in verses 13-14 is about PHYSICAL DEATH which was passed upon all men.

The "DEATH" which was passed upon all men is THE LAW OF SIN at work in man which brings man into this world SPIRITUALLY DEAD and then progresses to PHYSICALLY DEAD and then progresses to ETERNALLY DEAD SPIRIT AND BODY.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You had previously stated the reason men physically die is not due to violating the law of God but due to the fact they no longer have access to the tree of life! Right???

Yes, and I quotd verses which demonstrate that I am RIGHT:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).

Of course since what is written here disprove your little theory you go about trying to prove that what is said here cannot possibly be right.

So, if phyiscal death is due to not having access to the tree of life and the eating of the tree of life is what provides ETERNAL LIFE IN THE PHYSICAL BODY then how did Christ obtain PHYSICAL LIFE when his body died and was put into the grave!

I never said that this is thje way anyone receives an "eternal" body. It speaks of being a "mortal" body and it will always remain a mortal body. A person will not receive an eternal or immortal body until the resurrection.

But all of this is way above your head as you prove by your uninformed comments.

Hence, eating of the tree of life is not why we die physically because the resurrection body that has eternal life was not obtained by eating the tree of life.

Adam was denied access to the tree of life so that he would not live for ever, as witnessed by the words of the Lord:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever."

And that is the same reason that mankind was denied access to the tree of life.

Violation of God's law brings physical death just as Paul says:

"BY one man sin entered into the world and DEATH by sin...and death passed upon all men.....By one man's offfence MANY BE DEAD"

Paul was not speaking of 'physical death" there because all men are not physically dead as a result of their own sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

At the time when Paul wrote those words all men who had sinned were not dead physically but all men who had sinned were dead "spiritually."

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes, and I quotd verses which demonstrate that I am RIGHT:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).

Of course since what is written here disprove your little theory you go about trying to prove that what is said here cannot possibly be right.

I never said that this is thje way anyone receives an "eternal" body. It speaks of being a "mortal" body and it will always remain a mortal body. A person will not receive an eternal or immortal body until the resurrection.

But all of this is way above your head as you prove by your uninformed comments.

Adam was denied access to the tree of life so that he would not live for ever, as witnessed by the words of the Lord:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever."

And that is the same reason that mankind was denied access to the tree of life.

Paul was not speaking of 'physical death" there because all men are not physically dead as a result of their own sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

At the time when Paul wrote those words all men who had sinned were not dead physically but all men who had sinned were dead "spiritually."

So, eternal life in the body for all of Adam's descendants is not derived from eating the tree of life but it is derived from glorification just as in the case of the Lord's body!!