Dead Spiritually as a Result of Adam's Sin?

[Jerry Shugart]

So, eternal life in the body for all of Adam's descendants is not derived from eating the tree of life but it is derived from glorification just as in the case of the Lord's body!!

Can you not understand plain English?

I said that to continue to live in one's mortal body it was necessary to eat of the tree of life. But since that tree is no longer available to us sooner or later we will die in our mortal body:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).

I never said that this is the way anyone receives an "eternal" body. It speaks of being a "mortal" body and it will always remain a mortal body. A person will not receive an eternal or immortal body until the resurrection.

If I have said anything which is not true here then PROVE that it is not true.

 

[The Biblicist]

Can you not understand plain English?

I said that to continue to live in one's mortal body it was necessary to eat of the tree of life. But since that tree is no longer available to us sooner or later we will die in our mortal body:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).

I never said that this is the way anyone receives an "eternal" body. It speaks of being a "mortal" body and it will always remain a mortal body. A person will not receive an eternal or immortal body until the resurrection.

If I have said anything which is not true here then PROVE that it is not true.

Do you believe that sin is the cause of death in the human body or do you believe that death was part of God's plan in creating the human body and only eating of the tree of life would reverse the natural process of death?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I said;

If I have said anything which is not true here then PROVE that it is not true.

You proved absolutely nothing!

Do you believe that sin is the cause of death in the human body or do you believe that death was part of God's plan in creating the human body and only eating of the tree of life would reverse the natural process of death?

Sin is not the cause of death in the human body. we were all made just like Adam who had a mortal body and a mortal body is one that is subject to death.

Eating of the tree of life did not "reverse" anything. It only provided a way whereby a mortal body could continue to live. But once man no longer had access to the tree then sooner or later the mortal body will die because it is subject to death.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Instead of proving his accusations, Biblicist simply goes on yet another witch hunt to mask his inability to back up his false charges.

 

[The Biblicist]

Instead of proving his accusations, Biblicist simply goes on yet another witch hunt to mask his inability to back up his false charges.

No, I am simply clarifying that Jerry believes that death is part of God's design in creation of the body. For example, IF Adam would never had sinned and never had eaten of the tree of life then his body would have NATURALLY died according to his position and thus death would be part and parcel with God's design in creation.

Hence, that must mean that when Paul said "by one man sin entered the world and DEATH BY SIN" that he could not possibly be referring to PHYSICAL DEATH as that would have entered the world any way unless Adam ate of the tree of life!

Hence, the "death" that was "passed" upon all men is SPIRITUAL DEATH

Hence, "by one man's offence many BE DEAD" must be SPIRITUAL DEATH


So SPIRITUAL DEATH entered the world "BY ONE MAN's offence" you believe merely affects Adam only and no one else until they sin - so this is just a the first BAD example and nothing more.

Therefore, the statement "BY one man's offence MANY BE DEAD" really means according to you "BY many man's offences many be dead" as that is the ONLY way you can deny the clear teaching of original sin in this passage!

Moreover, the same is true in Romans 5:12. The first three quarters of the verse you simply interpret as the first bad example that has no revelance to anyone else unless they follow that example so actually noting is really "passed" upon all men by Adam except a bad example!

 

[Winman]

Biblicist, I showed you from Barnes Notes that by Adam many were made sinners does not necessarily mean how you interpret it. We know when it says by Jesus shall many be made righteous, this does not mean righteousness is unconditionally imputed to them, a person must believe. In like manner, a person must sin to be a sinner.

Sin brings death, not the other way around as you teach. The Bible does not say we are born dead and this causes us to sin, it says if we sin we shall die. How can you die if you are already dead? And what is the purpose of the law if you are born dead? What difference does it make if you lie or steal if you are born dead? Your view makes the law nonsensical and unnecessary.

If you give this any thought, you will see your view is nonsensical. You have believed what you have been taught without giving it serious thought.

If your view is correct, men should sin all they want, it has no effect, they were born as dead as they ever will be.

 

[Winman]

If your view is correct, the only law that was ever necessary was the one not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil which Adam broke. That's it, the job of the law is done in your view, Adam died spiritually and all his descendants died as well. All these other commandments are unnecessary fluff. The Bible should just directly tell us we are dead because of Adam's sin and this is why we need Jesus.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist, I showed you from Barnes Notes that by Adam many were made sinners does not necessarily mean how you interpret it.

I could quote any number of commentators that would repudiate Barnes interpretation and then what???

We know when it says by Jesus shall many be made righteous, this does not mean righteousness is unconditionally imputed to them, a person must believe. In like manner, a person must sin to be a sinner.

The problem with your logic is that Paul first denies there is an exact parallel between what Adam did versus what Christ did in regard to "many" but your argument is based upon no difference.

Second, the undeniable fact is that dying infants have not sinned as individuals and yet receive death as a consequence of Adam's sin. Hence, the only possible way death can justly be "passed" upon infants is because "all have sinned" when Adam sinned due to the WHOLE OF HUMAN NATURE existing and acting in one person - Adam - "BY one man's offence many be dead."

The text does not say "many SHALL die" nor does the text say "by MANY MENS OFFENCES many be dead." However, one or the other is how you must interpret it.

In addition "many BE DEAD" must refer to SPIRITUAL DEATH in regard to the state of HUMAN NATURE as consisting in one man - Adam, as neither Adam physicaly died immediately nor had all men died physically. Hence, the only possible way that "BY one man's offence MANY BE DEAD" is the yet the WHOLE unidivided human nature died spiritually at the precise moment Adam sinned and that is why DEATH is passed upon infants who individually never have committed sin.

That is also why infants sin NATURALLY even though ignorant of what they are doing because their HUMAN NATURE is SPIRITUALLY DEAD. That is why every single infant goes on to indviduallly and willfully sin so that there is "NONE, no, NOT ONE" who can be found that does not sin. That is why there is "NO FLESH" that can be justified by law and that is why "ALL THE WORLD" is condemned under law and that is why "EVERY MOUTH" can be stopped from boasting about any rightouesnes by the Law whether it is a Jew or a Gentile (Rom. 3:9).

All have sinned in Adam because all were united in one undivided HUMAN NATURE in Adam and that is why all as individuals sin because they are born with a sinful nature that manifest itself increasingly from birth.

 

[Winman]

Who cares? What difference do our personal sins make? If we are dead the moment we are conceived as you believe, we aren't going to become any more dead.

You are not thinking this through. If you are born dead, none of your personal actions, or thoughts, heart condition, whatever... make a beans worth of difference, you are DEAD.

Make all the silly arguments you want, in your view you are born DEAD, and all law and your actions are meaningless.

 

[The Biblicist]

Who cares?.......Make all the silly arguments you want, in your view you are born DEAD, and all law and your actions are meaningless.

I supported my position from the FACT of scriptures that death comes upon infants without individual personal willful sin - an undeniable fact that destroyes your theory, but you must flee to human philosophical speculation to defend your false doctrine.

We sin because we are sinners by nature is the Biblical position.

The death of infants has its only just basis in all humans united in ONE HUMAN NATURE acting in one person - Adam - "BY one man's offence MANY BE DEAD."

 

[Winman]

You see, it is impossible to be dead for Adam's sin and be dead for your own sin, it MUST be one or the other.

Infants do not sin.

Rom 9:11 (For the childen being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Jacob and Esau were both alive when God spoke to Rebekah, they were in her womb. Neither one had broken any law personally. But in your view they are DEAD. Not because they have acted out their depravity, the scriptures say they had not, but only because of Adam. So, they are already dead because of Adam, their own personal actions cannot make it any worse. Their own sin will not kill them, they are already dead in your view. You cannot kill a dead person.

So, you see, you cannot both die from Adam's sin and your own, that is impossible.

Now, if Jacob and Esau are not spiritually dead, then the laws make sense. When they understand the law and their responsibility to obey and choose to disobey, then they die.

God said, "The soul that sinneth it shall die" (Eze 18:4, 20). That would be a lie if your view is true, because Jacob and Esau would be dead when they had committed no sin according to scripture.

Think about it.

 

[Winman]

I supported my position from the FACT of scriptures that death comes upon infants without individual personal willful sin - an undeniable fact that destroyes your theory, but you must flee to human philosophical speculation to defend your false doctrine.

We sin because we are sinners by nature is the Biblical position.

The death of infants has its only just basis in all humans united in ONE HUMAN NATURE acting in one person - Adam - "BY one man's offence MANY BE DEAD."

Then nothing you or anyone else does matters, you were born dead, not for any sin you committed (see Rom 9:11). Jacob and Esau had done no evil, the scriptures directly say that. But in your view they are dead, not from acting out their depravity, they had not. They are dead solely because of Adam's sin.

See, you want to argue that we are born dead, this death causes us to sin, which causes us to die. That is impossible. You are either dead because of Adam's sin, or you are dead because of your own sin, but it cannot be both.

 

[The Biblicist]

You see, it is impossible to be dead for Adam's sin and be dead for your own sin, it MUST be one or the other.

Note how you SEPARATE you from Adam! However, if YOU sinned IN and WHEN Adam sinned then you are responsible for your own personal sins as well.

Infants do not sin.

Correction! Infants do not sin KNOWINGLY because they are not yet able to comprehend moral distinctions.

Rom 9:11 (For the childen being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Correction! Take note Paul said this when the children were "NOT YET BORN" and therefore impossible for them to do anything good or bad or commit any indivdual personal sin.

God said, "The soul that sinneth it shall die" (Eze 18:4, 20). That would be a lie if your view is true, because Jacob and Esau would be dead when they had committed no sin according to scripture.

Think about it.

Thought about it and you are wrong! You cannot apply this text to Adam or Christ because their actions did affect all men.

Christ is called "the LAST Adam" and "second man"! Do you believe Cain or Christ was literally the "second" man on earth?

Hence, the designation as "Last Adam" and "second" man have to do with a special position where their actions do affect ALL MEN. Such is not the case with the "father" in Ezek. 18:20

So you are mixing apples with oranges and jerking Ezekiel 18:20 out of context and misapplying it.

 

[Winman]

Note how you SEPARATE you from Adam! However, if YOU sinned IN and WHEN Adam sinned then you are responsible for your own personal sins as well.



Correction! Infants do not sin KNOWINGLY because they are not yet able to comprehend moral distinctions.



Correction! Take note Paul said this when the children were "NOT YET BORN" and therefore impossible for them to do anything good or bad or commit any indivdual personal sin.



Thought about it and you are wrong! You cannot apply this text to Adam or Christ because their actions did affect all men.

Christ is called "the LAST Adam" and "second man"! Do you believe Cain or Christ was literally the "second" man on earth?

Hence, the designation as "Last Adam" and "second" man have to do with a special position where their actions do affect ALL MEN. Such is not the case with the "father" in Ezek. 18:20

So you are mixing apples with oranges and jerking Ezekiel 18:20 out of context and misapplying it.

Give me a break, you are one of those who use Psa 51:5 as a proof that we are sinful at CONCEPTION. Now you suddenly say we have to be born. You might be fooling yourself, but you are not fooling me.

Someday you will realize you have been sold a lie, and that house of cards will come crashing down where it belongs.

If we are born dead in Adam, nothing we do matters. You can be faithful to your wife, you are DEAD. You could cheat, you are DEAD. Tell the truth, you are DEAD. Tell a lie, you are DEAD. All of God's laws are now meaningless and powerless. The only commandment that mattered was that one in the garden.

In your view, when Jesus said "Ye shall die in your sins" this was not true, you had already died the moment you were conceived in Adam's sin alone, before you had ever done evil.

 

[Darrell C]

Biblicist, I showed you from Barnes Notes that by Adam many were made sinners does not necessarily mean how you interpret it.

And what does Barnes say about 5:18?



Romans 5:18

King James Version (KJV)

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Who's offense is spoken of, if not Adam?

What is the judgment to condemnation which came upon all men, if not eternal separation?

One man is said to have brought both. So again, what does Barnes say about this?

We know when it says by Jesus shall many be made righteous, this does not mean righteousness is unconditionally imputed to them, a person must believe.

And how does man believe, apart from the convicting work of the God in their hearts? They decide to believe of their own accord?

In like manner, a person must sin to be a sinner.

And what makes him sin, if it not that it is his nature? That his inclination, in every man, will be to sin?

Sin brings death, not the other way around as you teach.

But...



Galatians 3:22

King James Version (KJV)

22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


Why is that? It is very simple if we let the scripture speak in full. All have sinned, all have fallen short of the glory of God, and all have done so because of...Adam.

The Bible does not say we are born dead and this causes us to sin, it says if we sin we shall die.

If we were not born dead, then Christ would not have said..."Ye must be born again."

Having the connotation of being born from above, which is in agreement with being born of God, this shows how man must be born...after they are physically born.

How can you die if you are already dead?

The second death is a good example.

And what is the purpose of the law if you are born dead?

It is stated clearly:


Galatians 3

King James Version (KJV)

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


The law was given because of transgressions. They were already in existence. It was given that man might have a temporary means of forgiveness, the shedding of blood, which speaks of the penalty of sin, which is death. The law allowed that a substitutionary death would be accepted in the place of the sinner...until the seed, Christ, Who was promised from the Garden, should come.

But the law did not take away sins. The substitutionary sacrife did not take away sins. It could not clear the conscience, for the offerer knew he would be back, to offer again and again...the same sacrifices.

Because his nature would allow for no other course of action.


24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


The law was meant to show man his sin, and to lead him to Christ. It's right there. By the law, man knew that he must offer sacrifice, for the law revealed to him what sin was, and that he was guilty. The publican understood this, and cried out for mercy, recognizing and proclaiming his sin.

What difference does it make if you lie or steal if you are born dead?

The Old Testament teaches consistently man's need for a Savior, that is, God.

Why would the law be given, when it could not take away sins? It is stated in the verse above, that it might lead us to Christ.

And it still does that.

The ministry of the Spirit of God without fail always includes the law. Incorporated into the law is the teaching that leads to repentance, turning to God, and redemption.

Reconciliation. How can man be reconciled to God if he did not personally have a relationship with God before conversion? Again, we look to Adam's sin which brought judgment and condemnation upon all men. Christ affirms this here:


John 3

King James Version (KJV)

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Your view makes the law nonsensical and unnecessary.

That is natural if one believes that eternal life is through the law.

But when it is overlooked that the law could not take away sin, it will inevitably be missed that the need for Christ to die, that men might have life...is so important.

The prophetic nature of the promise of Christ, Who is said to be a covenant, is found throughout the Old Testament.

It was not understood as it would be at the revelation of the mystery of God, but it did show man his need for salvation, despite how well he felt he obeyed God.

If you give this any thought, you will see your view is nonsensical.

Personally, I think he is doing very well.

He is at a disadvantage of course, for there are only so many times and ways the same passages can be dealt with.

He does have the advantage of many more passages that attest that man is dead spiritually, in that they do not have the life of God, the righteousness of God, or are children of God...from birth.

You have believed what you have been taught without giving it serious thought.

Then you know how God is teaching him?

It is evident that serious thought has been given, why would this be denied?

If your view is correct, men should sin all they want, it has no effect, they were born as dead as they ever will be.

Eat, drink, be merry...right?


I will leave you with one passage:



Hebrews 10

King James Version (KJV)

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


When the term "law" is used, is this referring to the written word only, the scriptures?

Clearly men did not offer sacrifices because they wanted to sin, but it is evident that their conscience showed them that it was necessary for them to continue to offer them.

Right?

While it is true that God's word has always cleansed men from sin, as we find in Hebrews, there remained yet one last event, that would take away sins, which would cleanse the conscience, and would bring completion to atonement and the removal of sins.

That event is the Cross of Christ.

Arguments such as this:

If your view is correct, men should sin all they want, it has no effect, they were born as dead as they ever will be.

...not only deny that which is recorded in scripture concerning God, they is demeaning to the work of Christ, and ignore God's mercy toward sinful man.

If all men were not born separated from God, and the life of God, and the righteousness of God, explain how it is that every person, with the exception of eight people, were destroyed from the face of the earth.

Noah received grace, as man has always. Noah's descendants replicated the actions and deeds of those who perished in the flood, and it did not take long.

Death is a form of separation, and those that insist that they are not separated from God at birth, usually insist that they can live righteously apart from Christ.

Israel made that mistake.

May God keep us from following in their error.

God bless.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Darrell: Death is a form of separation, and those that insist that they are not separated from God at birth, usually insist that they can live righteously apart from Christ.

Israel made that mistake.

HP: Please Darrell, you build your own straw man to simply knock it down. IF, and I say again, IF any man is shown at the judgment from the OT to have lived a sinless life, it would NOT in any way show they have done it apart from God (remember the Deity of Jesus Christ) but rather it would show that they moment by moment indeed DID rely COMPLETLY on God's help to sustain and keep them from sin.

If we as believer walk holy before God, it is not that we could do it without COMPLETE moment by moment dependence upon His help, strength, and guidance. Do not error on this point.

 

[The Biblicist]

Give me a break, you are one of those who use Psa 51:5 as a proof that we are sinful at CONCEPTION. Now you suddenly say we have to be born. You might be fooling yourself, but you are not fooling me.

No, you are fooling yourself! You have to be born first BEFORE you can DO anything not before you can BE anything and the text deals with DOING.

If we are born dead in Adam, nothing we do matters. You can be faithful to your wife, you are DEAD. You could cheat, you are DEAD. Tell the truth, you are DEAD. Tell a lie, you are DEAD. All of God's laws are now meaningless and powerless. The only commandment that mattered was that one in the garden.

No, everything you do is sin! The Bible defines sin as coming "short of the glory of God" and anything you say or do which does not originate with the only right motive for "whatsoever ye do or say" which is "DO ALL to the glory of God" is sin!

In your view, when Jesus said "Ye shall die in your sins" this was not true, you had already died the moment you were conceived in Adam's sin alone, before you had ever done evil.

They were already SPIRITUALLY DEAD (that is why they needed to be born again) but they would PHYSICALLY and ETERNALLY die in sins without forgiveness and rebirth.

 

[Winman]

And what does Barnes say about 5:18?

Giant font is not necessary, and does not make you correct.

Romans 5:18

King James Version (KJV)

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Who's offense is spoken of, if not Adam?

It does not say Adam's offense came upon us, it says his judgment. Big difference.

What is the judgment to condemnation which came upon all men, if not eternal separation?

The judgment is death. The wages of sin is death.

One man is said to have brought both. So again, what does Barnes say about this?

He brought the judgment, but that does not mean you are unconditionally under this judgment, just as Jesus brought the free gift, but you must believe to receive it. It is not unconditionally applied.

And how does man believe, apart from the convicting work of the God in their hearts? They decide to believe of their own accord?

No, I am in 100% agreement with you here and have always said that if God did not graciously give us his word and teach us about Jesus there is no possible way any man could believe.

And what makes him sin, if it not that it is his nature? That his inclination, in every man, will be to sin?

If a man must have a sinful nature to sin, then neither Adam or Eve, Satan, and the fallen angels could have sinned, they were all created very good. This is exactly the point I have been trying to show you all along, a sin nature is not necessary to sin. Free will and a lack of faith is the cause of sin. When Adam and Eve failed to believe God and believed Satan (well, at least Eve), then they made a willful choice to sin. It is not said why Adam willfully sinned, but I imagine he may have done so to be with Eve, which would make him a type of Christ, willing to become sin and die for her. But this is speculation on my part.

But...
Galatians 3:22

King James Version (KJV)

22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


Why is that? It is very simple if we let the scripture speak in full. All have sinned, all have fallen short of the glory of God, and all have done so because of...Adam.

I agree all have sinned, I have never said otherwise. But I do not believe a baby has sinned, and Romans 9:11 shows that neither Jacob or Esau had sinned while they were in their mother's womb. I don't think scripture speaks to infants.

If we were not born dead, then Christ would not have said..."Ye must be born again."

No, we have all sinned and spiritually died so we must be born again. But this is not the same as saying we are born dead, the scriptures say we are dead in our trespasses and sins we WALKED in. A little baby cannot sin, they cannot even form thought at first. When they mature and understand right and wrong before God, then they can willingly "walk" in sin and spiritually die. You are reading into scripture what it does not say, in fact, if you study you will see scripture refutes being born dead in sin.

Having the connotation of being born from above, which is in agreement with being born of God, this shows how man must be born...after they are physically born.

I agree that we must be born of God to see heaven.

The second death is a good example.

Have you forgotten that the spritually dead are raised and made alive again?

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

It is stated clearly:


Galatians 3

King James Version (KJV)

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


The law was given because of transgressions. They were already in existence. It was given that man might have a temporary means of forgiveness, the shedding of blood, which speaks of the penalty of sin, which is death. The law allowed that a substitutionary death would be accepted in the place of the sinner...until the seed, Christ, Who was promised from the Garden, should come.

But the law did not take away sins. The substitutionary sacrife did not take away sins. It could not clear the conscience, for the offerer knew he would be back, to offer again and again...the same sacrifices.

Because his nature would allow for no other course of action.

Men from Adam to Moses had natural law which Paul clearly explains in Romans 1 and 2. They can know there is a God from observation. They know perversion is "unnatural", they have the law written on their hearts. This is why men died from Adam to Moses, and this is exactly what Paul is saying in Romans 5:13-14. He said they DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's sin.

 

[Winman]

24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

If you are born dead in Adam the law is unnecessary. The only law that was necessary was the law Adam broke in the garden. The scriptures could simply say we are all dead because of Adam's sin and need Christ. All other law is unnecessary and meaningless if we died in Adam.

The law was meant to show man his sin, and to lead him to Christ. It's right there. By the law, man knew that he must offer sacrifice, for the law revealed to him what sin was, and that he was guilty. The publican understood this, and cried out for mercy, recognizing and proclaiming his sin.

Again, if your view is correct, you were DEAD at conception in Adam, all these laws had nothing to do with it. Jacob and Esau had done no evil (Rom 9:11), so if they were dead they were dead because of Adam's sin and not their own. You can't be dead because of Adam AND your own sin, it is impossible. Think about it.

The Old Testament teaches consistently man's need for a Savior, that is, God.

Agreed.

Why would the law be given, when it could not take away sins? It is stated in the verse above, that it might lead us to Christ.

That's what I'm asking you, if you were conceived dead in Adam's sin, what purpose does the law serve? It is meaningless.

And it still does that.

It doesn't do anything if your view is correct.

The ministry of the Spirit of God without fail always includes the law. Incorporated into the law is the teaching that leads to repentance, turning to God, and redemption.

If we are dead in Adam's sin, then the gospel should simply say we are dead in Adam's sin and this is why we need Christ.

Reconciliation. How can man be reconciled to God if he did not personally have a relationship with God before conversion? Again, we look to Adam's sin which brought judgment and condemnation upon all men. Christ affirms this here:

I don't know what you are saying here, none of us has a personal relationship with God until we trust in Christ.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

John 3

King James Version (KJV)

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That is natural if one believes that eternal life is through the law.

But when it is overlooked that the law could not take away sin, it will inevitably be missed that the need for Christ to die, that men might have life...is so important.

I don't know who you are confusing me with, I have always said that all men sin and come short of the glory of God and that all men need Christ to be saved. I have never said a man can be saved by keeping the law. It might be possible in theory, but no man has ever lived without sinning except Jesus.

The prophetic nature of the promise of Christ, Who is said to be a covenant, is found throughout the Old Testament.

OK, what is your point?

It was not understood as it would be at the revelation of the mystery of God, but it did show man his need for salvation, despite how well he felt he obeyed God.

Men knew they were sinners before Christ, why do you think they made sacrifices for their sins?

Personally, I think he is doing very well.

He is at a disadvantage of course, for there are only so many times and ways the same passages can be dealt with.

He does have the advantage of many more passages that attest that man is dead spiritually, in that they do not have the life of God, the righteousness of God, or are children of God...from birth.

There are no scriptures that say we are dead at birth. There are scriptures that show we are alive at birth and are the children of God.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Eze 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

The scriptures say we are made upright. God said children are born unto him and are his children. You are not born a child of the devil or wrath, you are born belonging to God.

Then you know how God is teaching him?

I know God is not teaching him because his views are unscriptural.

It is evident that serious thought has been given, why would this be denied?

I don't think he or you have thought this out. If you did you would see the law is unnecessary if you were already born dead in Adam. What can the law do if you are born dead? Can it make you MORE dead?

Eat, drink, be merry...right?

If you are born dead, why not? It's not like sinning is going to change anything, you were BORN DEAD. You really don't get this, do you?

I will leave you with one passage:



Hebrews 10

King James Version (KJV)

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


When the term "law" is used, is this referring to the written word only, the scriptures?

Clearly men did not offer sacrifices because they wanted to sin, but it is evident that their conscience showed them that it was necessary for them to continue to offer them.

Right?

Correct, but if they were born dead, all of these laws are unnecessary. Just tell folks they are dead in Adam. You are still not getting it.

While it is true that God's word has always cleansed men from sin, as we find in Hebrews, there remained yet one last event, that would take away sins, which would cleanse the conscience, and would bring completion to atonement and the removal of sins.

That event is the Cross of Christ.

Really? Thanks for telling me.

Arguments such as this:





...not only deny that which is recorded in scripture concerning God, they is demeaning to the work of Christ, and ignore God's mercy toward sinful man.

Who is demeaning God? You believe God condemns men for something another man did (Adam). And if you are a Calvinist you believe God passes by these men who were unfortunate enough to be born. They didn't ask to be born, they didn't choose to be sinners. And you think I demean God?

If all men were not born separated from God, and the life of God, and the righteousness of God, explain how it is that every person, with the exception of eight people, were destroyed from the face of the earth.

Noah received grace, as man has always. Noah's descendants replicated the actions and deeds of those who perished in the flood, and it did not take long.

Death is a form of separation, and those that insist that they are not separated from God at birth, usually insist that they can live righteously apart from Christ.

Israel made that mistake.

May God keep us from following in their error.

God bless.

Noah believed in God, that is why he found grace. No one receives grace except through faith. Again, this is another false teaching of Calvinism. Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God, God does not give grace to unbelievers.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

God shows grace to all men (Titus 2:11), but this grace must be received by faith. You only have access to God's grace through faith. If you are a Calvinist, this is a new concept for you, but this is what the scriptures say.

Your posts are way TOO long. I had to break this in two. Try a little brevity. Many words does not make you any more correct than giant font.

 

[DHK]

Again, if your view is correct, you were DEAD at conception in Adam, all these laws had nothing to do with it. Jacob and Esau had done no evil (Rom 9:11), so if they were dead they were dead because of Adam's sin and not their own. You can't be dead because of Adam AND your own sin, it is impossible. Think about it.

Where does it say they had done no evil?
Are you sure that you are not looking at a prophecy? Something from God's point of view before the foundation of the world so to speak. Before they were even conceived (in God's eyes) they had done no evil. Sometimes we must look at things the way God sees them, for that is the way they are stated.