The Resurrection Body and 1st Cor. 15 (But don't forget 12, 13, and 14)

[Van]

Hi Tom, we may share a love for Bible study, if the OP was your work, but we do not seem to share much in the way of Biblical understanding.

If I understand your view, you do not think the Bible teaches at Christ's second coming that believer's will be bodily resurrected.

If when a believer physically dies, their spirit goes to be with the Lord in heaven, then the body rots in the ground, grave or in the sea. It may be vaporized, as those who experienced the fireball of a nuclear bomb.

Which brings us to the "first resurrection" or the resurrection of life. In Revelation 20:4 we see that "souls" (human individuals in spiritual form" exist and then "came to life." The view that you reject thinks that this means the spirits were united with "glorified bodies" i.e. came to life in physical form and reigned with Jesus, as in physical form for 1000 years.

Next, another verse that seems to me to run counter to your view is 1 Thessalonians 5:23, where something referred to as being "sanctified completely" will happen. If we have been set apart spiritually in Christ, then to be sanctified completely would be to be raised in glorified bodies.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:16, we see where "the dead in Christ" will rise first. Now if our spirits are with Christ, then a reasonable view is that this refers to our physical bodies, reconstituted, i.e. glorified, being united with our spirits, our resurrection to life.

And finally 1 Corinthians 15:52 says the dead will be raised "imperishable." Somehow we attain a body that puts on immortality. So you face again the same difficulty with your view, if we have already been raised spiritually when we physically die, and our spirit is with Christ in heaven, then what is this body being raised at His second coming. We already have a spiritual body that has been raised, so this body being raised and changed from perishable - sounds like our physical body - to imperishable - sounds like a glorified physical body.

Anyway, that is the view of the many.

 

[percho]

The only example we have. Jesus.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

1. his soul was not left in hell (Hades)
2. neither his flesh did see corruption

1 Cor 15:35 But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1. the dead (persons with names. Jesus, Larry, Curly and Mo)
2. what body

1 Cor. 15:1-24 Paul argues the resurrection of the dead not the resurrection of the dead body or bodies. Dead people.

Dead people will be resurrected and given a body as it pleases God.

For we know that if our earthly house (body) of [this] tabernacle (person, soul) were dissolved,(dies & begins corruption the soul/person to Hades) we (the soul/person in Hades) have a building (spiritual body of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

That house from heaven is put on at the appearing of Christ the day of regeneration the resurrection/change.

 

[asterisktom]

Thank you, Van and Percho, for replies that, though I have serious disagreements with both (on various points) I appreciate that you actually took the time to interact scripturally with what I wrote.

Hopefully I can find time to answer these soon before I leave for China. But I am visiting family, with lots of distractions and kids running around (I'm used to my quiet hunt-and-peck corner of my old place).

But in the meantime I just wanted to give you guys kudos for showing respect, both for me and (more importantly) God's Word.

 

[percho]

Thank you, Van and Percho, for replies that, though I have serious disagreements with both (on various points) I appreciate that you actually took the time to interact scripturally with what I wrote.

Hopefully I can find time to answer these soon before I leave for China. But I am visiting family, with lots of distractions and kids running around (I'm used to my quiet hunt-and-peck corner of my old place).

But in the meantime I just wanted to give you guys kudos for showing respect, both for me and (more importantly) God's Word.

Merry Christmas and have fun in China.

 

[freeatlast]

One of my points is that there is no mention of our getting physical bodies in I cor. 15. In the entire section (chapters 12-15, roughly) the emphasis is on the one Body of Christ, of which we are members.

The 15th chapter needs to be understood in the light of the building context of the previous chapters.

I am still not sure I understand your point. I could be wrong but you seem to be purposely vague. However I will take a stab at this guessing what you are trying to convey. In Chapter 15:12 it reads;
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

My question how did Christ rise? In a body or in spirit?

 

[asterisktom]

I am still not sure I understand your point. I could be wrong but you seem to be purposely vague. However I will take a stab at this guessing what you are trying to convey. In Chapter 15:12 it reads;
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

My question how did Christ rise? In a body or in spirit?

I am not being purposefully vague. I am trying to be careful and precise. This is required especially in places where people are ready to jump at ill-chosen words.

As far as your last question: I've said several times that Christ rose in a body. Just like our bodies.

Sure as shootin' someone is going to ask me this question again. And again. maybe I should make it my signature.

But I know you meant well.

 

[freeatlast]

I am not being purposefully vague. I am trying to be careful and precise. This is required especially in places where people are ready to jump at ill-chosen words.

As far as your last question: I've said several times that Christ rose in a body. Just like our bodies.

Sure as shootin' someone is going to ask me this question again. And again. maybe I should make it my signature.

But I know you meant well.

All right. Well while I don't agree it is a body like ours I do agree He raised in a body but I am assuming your OP is about something else. So we agree that there was a bodily resurrection with Christ. So let me go on and see if I can figure out the intent of the OP. The 15th chapter goes on to say this in comparison;

verses 35-38
But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
[Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

So would you agree that this is speaking about the saved who die and that we (believers) will one day receive a body based on those passages and focusing on verse 38?

 

[asterisktom]

All right. Well while I don't agree it is a body like ours I do agree He raised in a body but I am assuming your OP is about something else. So we agree that there was a bodily resurrection with Christ. So let me go on and see if I can figure out the intent of the OP. The 15th chapter goes on to say this in comparison;

verses 35-38
But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
[Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

So would you agree that this is speaking about the saved who die and that we (believers) will one day receive a body based on those passages and focusing on verse 38?

If I have time I will answer this. I just received my invitation to work in China, so things are going into high gear for our flight and other preparations.

I hope others will find time to answer these questions.

 

[psalms109:31]

Revelation 5:
6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[That is, the sevenfold Spirit] of God sent out into all the earth.7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign[Some manuscripts they reign] on the earth.”
11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:

“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”

Revelation 13:
7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.[Or written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain]

9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

10 “If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed[Some manuscripts anyone kills] with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”[Jer. 15:2]

Revelation 7:
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’[Isaiah 49:10]
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[Isaiah 25:8]”

Revelation 22
Eden Restored
1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.


I do believe Jesus body the Lamb will be in heaven and we will be able to see the scars He endured for us and is still the source of eternal life for eternity with God. That since the body had no sin of it's own was able to go into heaven as a Spiritual body the source of eternal life. I am sorry that I do not ever see me ever have life in me without being in Christ.

 

[JesusFan]

All right. Well while I don't agree it is a body like ours I do agree He raised in a body but I am assuming your OP is about something else. So we agree that there was a bodily resurrection with Christ. So let me go on and see if I can figure out the intent of the OP. The 15th chapter goes on to say this in comparison;

verses 35-38
But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
[Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

So would you agree that this is speaking about the saved who die and that we (believers) will one day receive a body based on those passages and focusing on verse 38?

His point is that Jesus had his second coming AD 70. Jesus rode in a bodily form, "shed" that while back in heaven, and All of us will have spiritual bodoes at death given us!

 

[freeatlast]

His point is that Jesus had his second coming AD 70. Jesus rode in a bodily form, "shed" that while back in heaven, and All of us will have spiritual bodoes at death given us!

Well I a going to let him speak for himself. I told him I felt he was being vague and if that is what he wants so be it, but I am not a mind reader and if he cannot post clear meanings to what he is saying then there is no need for the discussion.

 

[percho]

All right. Well while I don't agree it is a body like ours I do agree He raised in a body but I am assuming your OP is about something else. So we agree that there was a bodily resurrection with Christ. So let me go on and see if I can figure out the intent of the OP. The 15th chapter goes on to say this in comparison;

verses 35-38
But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
[Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

So would you agree that this is speaking about the saved who die and that we (believers) will one day receive a body based on those passages and focusing on verse 38?

Isn't the body you spoke of above the house from heaven of 2 Cor 5?

Does my post 22 describe that body the dead person in Christ will be given when the dead person in Christ is resurrected?

Will that be the same image spoken of in this verse?
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Why do you think the Holy Spirit chose, firstborn of many brethren to describe this moment?

Is firstborn used here in the same context as firstborn from the dead in Col. 1:18? Is conformed to the image of his Son speaking of his appearing and the resurrection?

 

[percho]

His point is that Jesus had his second coming AD 70. Jesus rode in a bodily form, "shed" that while back in heaven, and All of us will have spiritual bodoes at death given us!

Please say this again a little different. What do you mean "rode in" and "shed"?
Do you mean he went up in a body and then shed it in heaven?
Did he return in 70AD with a body or not?
Why would he "shed" it?

I understand you were speaking what you think Tom was saying.

 

[freeatlast]

Does my post 22 describe that body the dead person in Christ will be given when the dead person in Christ is resurrected?

Will that be the same image spoken of in this verse?
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Why do you think the Holy Spirit chose, firstborn of many brethren to describe this moment?

Is firstborn used here in the same context as firstborn from the dead in Col. 1:18? Is conformed to the image of his Son speaking of his appearing and the resurrection?

If I understand your question. The Rom. passage is much like the Gen. passage that says man was created in the image and likeness of God, Gen 1:26. I do not feel the passage has anything to do with bodies or physical appearance. I feel it is more in line with character and types of abilities.

In the Col. 1:18 passage firstborn is speakig of position. The firstborn holds the rights to rule. Christ is the Firstborn.

 

[percho]

If I understand your question. The Rom. passage is much like the Gen. passage that says man was created in the image and likeness of God, Gen 1:26. I do not feel the passage has anything to do with bodies or physical appearance. I feel it is more in line with character and types of abilities.

In the Col. 1:18 passage firstborn is speakig of position. The firstborn holds the rights to rule. Christ is the Firstborn.

IF you take the passage from Col 1:18 for exactly what it says,

Who is beginning/original firstborn out of the dead

How can that mean anything except exactly what it says, Jesus is the first living soul that died and has been brought forth from the dead the last Adam
into spirit quickening, as in 1 Coir 15:45 The next verse also speaks of a resurrected man child, Jesus being the only one currently to which this applies. 46 Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Does that verse apply to Jesus?

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Are the images above relative to births as in born? Yes or No.

Do you not think the image of the heavenly in that verse is the same image in Romans 8:29 also relative to firstborn a birth term?

 

[freeatlast]

IF you take the passage from Col 1:18 for exactly what it says,

Who is beginning/original firstborn out of the dead

How can that mean anything except exactly what it says, Jesus is the first living soul that died and has been brought forth from the dead the last Adam
into spirit quickening, as in 1 Coir 15:45 The next verse also speaks of a resurrected man child, Jesus being the only one currently to which this applies. 46 Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Does that verse apply to Jesus?

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Are the images above relative to births as in born? Yes or No.

Do you not think the image of the heavenly in that verse is the same image in Romans 8:29 also relative to firstborn a birth term?

Because Jesus is not the first person to be come back from the dead. He raised Lazarus prior top His own resurrection. Also the young girl, the dead son of the widow. Firstborn is a place of authority and when applied to the Lord we will receive all that is involved in that including bodies like His.

 

[percho]

Because Jesus is not the first person to be come back from the dead. He raised Lazarus prior top His own resurrection. Also the young girl, the dead son of the widow. Firstborn is a place of authority and when applied to the Lord we will receive all that is involved in that including bodies like His.

He is the first man child to be raised from the dead spirit quickening. With spiritual, incorruptible, no more to return to corruption Acts13:34

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead Gal1:1
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth John 5:21
Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1Cor15:46 After being raised from the dead. Was Lazarus raised from the dead as a spiritual incorruptible person?
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; John5:26 Is Jesus speaking here as prophet, priest or king. Just when do you think the Father gives to the Son this inherent life?

Gal3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Titus1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Today has Abraham received the promises?

I have asked this question many times and no one has answered.

Do you think the promise of Titus 1:2 was made to Adam and his sinful degenerate sons or do you think it was made for the Lamb, the sinless one, slain from the foundation of the world?

 

[JesusFan]

Well I a going to let him speak for himself. I told him I felt he was being vague and if that is what he wants so be it, but I am not a mind reader and if he cannot post clear meanings to what he is saying then there is no need for the discussion.

See this, by a reformed scholar, so they would NOT be a Futurist as in Dispy theology...
A Brief Theological Analysis of Hyper-Preterism
By Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr.


"Creedal Failure

First, hyper-preterism is heterodox. It is outside the creedal orthodoxy of Christianity. No creed allows any second Advent in A. D. 70. No creed allows any other type of resurrection than a bodily one. Historic creeds speak of the universal, personal judgment of all men, not of a representative judgment in A. D. 70. It would be most remarkable if the entire church that came through A. D. 70 missed the proper understanding of the eschaton and did not realize its members had been resurrected! And that the next generations had no inkling of the great transformation that took place! Has the entire Christian church missed the basic contours of Christian eschatology for its first 1900 years?"

His viewpoint of th spiritual only resurrection, second coming already happened etc was NEVER accepted as being orthodox by the Christian Church!