Regeneration and the Renewing of the Holy Spirit

[Darrell C]

Note, due to the time spent in this response, I was logged out, and am not sure if the links will remain at posting.

Also, it is too long (forgot about that on this forum...lol), so I will have to break it up.

The "regeneration" spoken of at Titus 3:5 is indeed the same as being born again or born of the Spirit.

Hello again, Jerry, and good, something we can agree on.

Now, if we are agreed that the reference in Titus is the same as spoken of by the Lord in John 3, then we cannot combat the one against the other, right?

In John 3, we must be born:

1-again (and context supports the use of "again" in the translation due to Nicodemus' response, though "from above" can also be included without confusing the intent).

2-of water: as we look at our similar passages dealing with this topic of the new birth, as well as the general theme of cleansing from God's word, we can rule out water being a reference to physical birth, even as does context.

3-of Spirit: most understand that it is the power of God by which the new birth is accomplished.

In our current text, we read:


Titus 3

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


A few verses touching on the "washing" before looking at the "renewing:"



1 Peter 1:23

King James Version (KJV)

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


The word of God is instrumental in conversion, most would agree. Throughout the entirety of scripture this is seen and understood. But that the new birth can be seen to take on a strengthened form conversion, rather than what I see as a "restoration" such as suggested concerning the new birth revealed by Christ and the Apostles, cannot be missed. "Restoration" can be seen in the Old Testament, this is true, but to make the "perfection" which Christ has brought equivalent to the work of God in the lives of men prior to His coming is an injustice, and shows a particular lack of discernment concerning the work of Christ.



Ephesians 5:26

King James Version (KJV)

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,


Again, the cleansing power of the word is timeless, and threads it's way through the entirety of man's existence, and without doubt, before the world began. I believe it was the word of God by which the Holy Angels believed, and avoided the error of demons.

Here, context cannot be disputed that the Church, the body of Christ is in view. When did the Church begin? While our Progressive Dispensational brothers argue her existence prior to Christ coming, most would agree that the Church began at Pentecost, wherein the indwelling of the Holy Spirit began, never to depart from those that were...born again.

Paul goes on to say:


32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


Would any argue, reasonably, that the Church began at Pentecost? Okay, I know this seems irrelevant, but I feel that understanding that two specific events are combined in the New Birth, that is, the washing of the water of the word (faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God) and we understand that the Church herself was a mystery, even to those closest of disciples that walked with the Lord during His ministry; and...the power of God placinbg the members in the Church Himself. Or, being born of Spirit. John the Baptist states two possibilities for man concerning Christ: baptism with fire (judgment), or baptism with Spirit.


Our key verse again:


Titus 3

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


While again this is of course referring to the washing which occurs to believers, it refers to the Who which does the work, rather than the who the work is performed upon. That is evident in the verse itself: "Not by works which we have done..."

As I am beginning to doubt this point will be understood, let us now look at regeneration:


Titus 3:5

King James Version (KJV)

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


While this word is found only twice in scripture, we see many uses, as pointed out before, of the words which make up this word.


The word palin is in every instance translated...again, carrying out the concept of the new birth. Or, being born...again.

It is found in the verse above, and it is found here:



Matthew 19:28

King James Version (KJV)

28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Now it is proposed that regeneration carries a concept of man having something that he previously had before, that is, that he was previously "born of Spirit," which is set forth in order to deny that man is...separated by God, dead in trespasses and sins, and having a nature that is other than that which scripture declares to be one that is sinful.

If that is the case, perhaps we should also believe that in the regeneration, which is of course a reference to the Millennial Kingdom, man also previously had:

1-the Son of Man (Christ) reigning;

2-our disciples also reigning and judging;

3-those that dwell within the kingdom would have to be already in existence. This would mean that they would have to be those alive while Christ spoke this to His disciples, and would exclude anyone born during that specific generation...altogether. Because they would have had to already be in existence, been in this kingdom, lost it, and have it restored unto them.

4-and of course, the promised kingdom of God already in existance prior to this.

Who would suggest this, except perhaps a preterist, who would make symbolic those things which many of us see as prophect fulfilled and yet to be fulfilled? While we recognize that the Kingdom of God is not limited to the MK, we also do not negate the prophetic nature of Christ's word here, nor that of many, many other passages that affirm that there will be an earthly kingdom given to Israel in fulfillment of God's promise to this nation.

Here, the regeneration refers to a restoration, even as it does in Titus, however, in neither case does man have in advance or previously those things which were/are to come.

Man was born spiritually in Adam, but lost that.

Israel did have a kingdom...but lost that as well.

I say that the word "regeneration" means a "repetitiation of an action" and Nicodemus knew of only one birth so he thought the Lord Jesus was speaking of a repetitation of his birth from the womb.

And as I have stated, I agree to the extent that when man was created, he was created spiritually relational to God. In general, man was "born" in relationship to God, but, that relationship ended when Adam sinned.

To appeal to Nicodemus' response for anything other than to show that the Lord was not speaking of physical birth is irrelevant.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

What spirit does man have? Scripture tells us (and I will briefly comment on this passage, in hopes of keeping the integrity of the context):


1 Corinthians 2

King James Version (KJV)

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:


Most will agree that a "mystery" is a previously unrevealed truth. How true that is here, for man did not understand that which Christ would accomplish concerning man's redemption. It is a biblical fact that understanding that Christ would die for the sin of man...was not understood until after He died.

And I would suggest that until the coming of the Comforter this remained true, as evidenced by Peter's return...to fishing.



8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


Had this truth been understood, as we see here, you could not have found a man on the face of the earth to crucify Christ. Now that this mystery has been revealed to man, when Christ returns...all will know.


9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.


Not the glories of man's entrance to Heaven, but the glory of Christ, revealed to man. There is no truth more glorious to man's heart.


10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


God has revealed to man those things spoken of in v. 9. How is it proposed that this was previously revealed to man, before the appointed time?


11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.


Does man have a spirit? Of course. Even in his natural state man has spirit, but, he does not, in his natural state from birth...have the Spirit of God.


12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


Would it be argued that we, believers, have received the Spirit of God, and that this does not tell us that prior to that, we had the spirit of the world?


13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

That which Paul taught, was it taught before the Cross? Yes, by Christ Himself, as well as prophecy. But was it understood by even one man?

No. It remained a mystery. John the Baptist declared the Lamb of God, but in his incarceration, even he sent disciples to inquire whether Jesus was truly the Christ. John died before the unveiling of this mystery. The disciples of Christ also did not understand this mystery.

But as we see here, key to man's understanding was the Spirit of God, Who leads and guides us into all truth. Until Pentecost, man had no understanding of Christ's ministry concerning redemption.


14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Here, "the natural man" is distinguished from the spiritual man, as Paul did in many places.

Earlier, I said:

According to Richard Trench the word has "in heathen and Jewish Greek the meaning of a recovery, a restoration" (Richard Trench, Synonyms of the New Testament).

To this you replied

And in the sense that man (in general) is spiritually dead and in need of being made alive, he would be correct. But the minute he tries to give man life (spiritual) that he does not have, he would be in error.

Paul includes himself as being regenerated so he is speacifically speaking about himself receiving a repetition of a birth with the Spirit. The fact that the action of "regeneration" is applied directly to him cannot be denied.

The fact that he not "born of the Spirit" is also plain in the life of Paul.

Over and over Paul makes this clear.



Ephesians 4:24

King James Version (KJV)

24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


If the "new man" is created after God in righteousness and true holiness, what would we assume about the old man?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Ephesians 4:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.


Over and over throughout scripture we see that man in his natural state is separated from God.

The word 'restored" means "a bringing back to a former position or condition" (Merriam-Webster Dictionary).

Again, we are "restored" to that position which Adam had. But it in no way implies that man is born in that position, but as we see clearly in scripture, man is separated from God...at birth. We would have to throw out about one tenth of the New Testament in order to affirm the denial of man's separation from God, and his need to be saved from that condition.

And a modern dictionary is not the best resource for bible interpretation and understanding, though it can at times heplp us in our own approach to study.

Restoration is a biblical concept to be sure, but this in regards to that which was lost by man (in general) due to Adam's sin, and that which was lost to Israel (in general) due to their sin.

Israel received a land, and lost it. They are promised a kingdom to come, and when that is given them, Israel will then be restored. Those that enter the kingdom will be those alive at the end of the Tribulation, not those to whom the Kingdom was promised. These people will have been born just prior to the establishment of this kingdom, and in no way can it be said that this Kingdom will have been "restored" to them, even as the New Birth is not a repeat of a previous event in the lives of believers.

When a person is regenerated by the Holy Spirit he is brought back to his former position of being born of the Holy Spirit.

Just cannot be validated by scripture.

While God is of course the Life-Giver, Christ makes it clear that man...has no life. What does that mean? That he has no physical life? No, it speaks of the spiritual life which is eternal granted to those that receive Christ, and this life began...after Christ came. After the Holy Spirit came.

Redemption finds it's completion in Christ, not before. Christ had to die for the atonement of man's sin, before man could reveice perfect forgiveness of sins, and come into a standing of righteousness before God.

Again, when Paul used the pronoun "us" he was including himself "individually" of being regenerated:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

Paul's words cannot be understood apart from "Paul restored."

True, but Paul was spiritually...defunct. Who would insist that Paul was born of the Spirit...before he was converted? Man is in need from birth of a new spirit:



Ezekiel 36:24-27

King James Version (KJV)

24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.


Originally given to Israel, and still, nationally, to be fulfilled in the Millennial Kingdom, God gives promise of a "restoration" for Israel.

He will bring them into their own land.


25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.


He will cleanse them with the washing of the water of the word.


26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.


Their hard hearts will be turned back to God.

They will be given "new spirits." That the term spirit here refers to "spirit" in the sense of, "a spirit of anger," or, "a spirit of fear" can be seen, however, it does not change the fact that man's spirit is out of relation with God, and must be changed. However one cares to view this here, we are told that they will be given a "new" spirit, and this speaks of that which is not the same one it is contrasted with, but, as it is translated, new.


27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Why could not man "keep the law" perfectly? Apart from God, it is impossible.

We have here a clear description of what takes place in conversion, cleansing by the word of God, a new heart, a new spirit, and the indwelling of the Spirit of God.

A person is created in the image or likeness of God so it is inconceivable that we are made in a state of being dead in sin:

Adam was created in the image and likeness of God.


Genesis 5

1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:


That is indisputable biblical fact. It also shows the result of the Fall.

"With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness" (Jas.3:9).

James speaks of the fact that man was created in the image of God, to be sure, however, he is not building doctrine to say that man is, at birth, Godly.

Just as his words are confused to mean that man is justified by works in the spiritual sense, in their standing, he is not denying that all born to Adam are, just like Seth, born in the image and likeness of their earthly fathers, who have the nature, also, of their fathers.

Had man been completely different from thier original father, Adam, James would not have said this. His point, just as the prohibition against murder, is that men have no right to despise their fellow man. He does descend from Adam, who was created in the likeness and image of God.

But that cannot be said of man after the fall.

Your remaining remarks are in regard to when the new birth began so they have no bearing on paul's words at Titus 3:5.

I would suggest that this just as relevant and important issue to the conversation at hand. Without recognition for the distinguished difference between what was mystery before Christ (and His death and Pentecost), the difference of God's personal ministry to and in man (meaning how He, the Spirit, works in men), the cessation of and subsequent obsolete First Covenant and the introduction of the New Covenant (of which the new birth is part of the promise) of which Paul was an "able minister," we overlook some of the most important doctrine that will help us to balance God's word.

I also wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Thanks, Jerry, it was pretty good. First time I can remember Christmas falling on Sunday, and it was good to be in the House of the Lord on that day, though, we were a bit late...lol.

Hope yours was joyous as well, and I look forward to talking to you in the future.

God bless.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Again, we are "restored" to that position which Adam had. But it in no way implies that man is born in that position, but as we see clearly in scripture, man is separated from God...at birth.

You failed to understand what I said previously about this:

Paul includes himself as being regenerated so he is speacifically speaking about himself receiving a repetition of a birth with the Spirit. The fact that the action of "regeneration" is applied directly to him cannot be denied.

But you seem to deny it despite the fact that the 'regeneration" spoken about in this verse is applied directly to those whom Paul includes in the group defined by the pronoun "us":

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

Paul underood that his salvation was accomplisehed by 'regeneration." That is not speaking of Adam's regeneration but instead Paul's own personal regeneration. And as I have shown, that regeneration is in regard to a restoration of his previous state when he was born of the Spirit.

So it is not factual to say that the regeneration or restoration of which Paul speaks is in regard to Adam. Despite this you say:

Restoration is a biblical concept to be sure, but this in regards to that which was lost by man (in general) due to Adam's sin, and that which was lost to Israel (in general) due to their sin.

Let us look at Israel. The Apostles correctly believed that the Lord would "restore" the kingdom to Israel:
　
"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again (apokathistēmi) the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).

This Greek word apokathistēmi means "to restore to its former state, to be in its former state" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Since restoration is in regard to being put back in a "former state" then common sense dictates that when one is regenerated spiritually then the former state must be one that is spiritual.

Israel received a land, and lost it. They are promised a kingdom to come, and when that is given them, Israel will then be restored.

Yes, and when a person sins he dies spiritually and therefore lose the state of being alive spiritually:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).

There can be no doubt that the reference is to "spiritual" death when we look at the following passage:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

here Paul is saying that the Ten Commandments bring forth spiritual death and that happens when a person breaks the commandments. Paul is contrasting the commandements with the new testament and that brings "spiritual" life--"the Spirit giveth life."

Since the "life" spoken of is "spiritual" in nature then the "death is also spiritual in nature.

And this proves that a person does not die spiritually until he sins. That means that no one is born dead spiritually because a person must first be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually.

We would have to throw out about one tenth of the New Testament in order to affirm the denial of man's separation from God, and his need to be saved from that condition.

The verses which you make reference to are speaking about people who have sinned and as a result are separated from God.

 

[The Biblicist]

Jerry,

Before we can have a reasonable discussion about your definition of "re-generation" we must come to some kind of agreement to exactly WHAT was lost and restored or renewed?

I am suggesting that if you define WHAT was lost and restored by Bibilical definitions that that is sufficient alone to prove your idea of "re-generation" is completely false!

Do you want to take up that challenge of Biblical definition? If you can't define WHAT was lost then how can you demand it was "restored" or "renewed"???

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Before we can have a reasonable discussion about your definition of "re-generation" we must come to some kind of agreement to exactly WHAT was lost and restored or renewed?

The definition which I gave for the greek word translated "regeneration" tells us exactly what was restored . The word "regeneration" is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and </I>genesis</I>.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit."

I am suggesting that if you define WHAT was lost and restored by Bibilical definitions that that is sufficient alone to prove your idea of "re-generation" is completely false!

If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit. So it is the condition that is described as "spiritual" which is lost and restored.

Do you want to take up that challenge of Biblical definition? If you can't define WHAT was lost then how can you demand it was "restored" or "renewed"???

I have already done this several times on this thread so when you assert that I haven't you are speaking out of ignorance.

 

[The Biblicist]

And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit."

If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit. So it is the condition that is described as "spiritual" which is lost and restored.

You have given a GENERAL definition of WHAT is "re-generaiton" and I agree that "regeneration" is spiritual birth or being born of the Spirit of God.

Now, WHAT is born of God? Is it your physical body that was born of God or is it some immatieral aspect of your human nature (Jn. 3:6)??

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You have given a GENERAL definition of WHAT is "re-generaiton" and I agree that "regeneration" is spiritual birth or being born of the Spirit of God.

Do you agree with my so-called 'general" definition that regeneration speaks of a "repetition of a birth"?

Now, WHAT is born of God? Is it your physical body that was born of God or is it some immatieral aspect of your human nature (Jn. 3:6)??

According to the Bible when we believe it is the "soul" which is saved. So I would say that it is also the soul that is born again by the Spirit.

When a person is regenerated or born again by the Spirit then that represents a "repetation" of the action when he was previously born of the Spirit.

 

[The Biblicist]

According to the Bible when we believe it is the "soul" which is saved. So I would say that it is also the soul that is born again by the Spirit.

Hence, what are the Biblical characteristics and evidences of a soul that is born of God? How can you tell whether a soul is born of God? What does the Bible demand must characterize anyone that is spiritually born of God?

For example, can you be born of God without manifesting any fruit of righteousness by your attitude, behavior and actions? Does a spirit born nature manifest anything NATURALLY?

Please answer these questions in the context of no sin nature and no ability to willfully choose sin as that is YOUR infant child context.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hence, what are the Biblical characteristics and evidences of a soul that is born of God? How can you tell whether a soul is born of God? What does the Bible demand must characterize anyone that is spiritually born of God?

You ask a lot of questions but before I answer any more of yours I will ask you to answer the one which you ignored:

Do you agree with my so-called 'general" definition that regeneration speaks of a "repetition of a birth"?

 

[The Biblicist]

You ask a lot of questions but before I answer any more of yours I will ask you to answer the one which you ignored:

Do you agree with my so-called 'general" definition that regeneration speaks of a "repetition of a birth"?

We are not disagreeing over repetition of birth but what we are disagreeing if it is the same kind of birth being repeated.

Now, if that is our point of argument then don't demand that your application be the criteria for our discussion. Isn't that exactly what you are trying to do right now? Are you not trying to force an argument over your conclusion BEFORE we even determine WHAT your conclusion demands and whether it is even possible or rational?

So don't presume your interpretation of "regeneration" to be the basis for our discussion as that is the very thing we are disagreeing over. To do so is circular argumentation.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We are not disagreeing over repetition of birth but what we are disagreeing if it is the same kind of birth being repeated.

So you agree that the Greek word translated "regeneration" speaks of a "repetition of an action"?

 

[The Biblicist]

So you agree that the Greek word translated "regeneration" speaks of a "repetition of an action"?

We are not disagreeing over repetition of birth but what we are disagreeing is if it is the same kind of birth being repeated.

Now, please return to my former post and answer the questions I asked you before we went down this rabbit trail. It is a rabbit trail because you are trying to make me admit to your interpretation before we even begin to properly define what the new birth is and what it must entail.

Please return and answer my questions.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We are not disagreeing over repetition of birth but what we are disagreeing is if it is the same kind of birth being repeated.

if it is a repetition of a verse then that means it is the same kind of birth that s repeated.

A birth of the Spirit is NOT a repetiton of a birth from the mother's womb.

A birth of the Spirit must be a repetition of another birth of the Spirit.

Here we see that Paul applies that "repetition of a birth" to himself:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

Paul uses the pronoun 'us" so he is applying the "repetition of a birth" to himself. And since the regeneration of which he speaks is in regard to a spiritual birth then common sense dictates that the previous birth was also a birth of the Spirit.

 

[The Biblicist]

if it is a repetition of a verse then that means it is the same kind of birth that s repeated.

So, you don't want to answer the questions that would obviously expose your applied definition of regeneration as foolish and false?

Instead you want to simply take a term and rationalize it into your own mold and then demand that rationalization overthrows the tremendous weight of contrary Biblical evidence that opposes it!!

You don't want to deal with the fact that previous spritiual life means that infants would be demanded to display all the necessary fruits of new birth continuously and perfectly BECAUSE they do no have FREE WILL that is capable of choosing between right and wrong but ONLY have one nature - true holiness and righteousness (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10; 1 Jn. 3:9; etc.).

Your doctrine is demonic straith from hell and contrary to God's Word and there is no one and no amount of contrary evidence that will ever change your mind beause your conscience is seared in this error.

 

[Darrell C]

You failed to understand what I said previously about this:

Actually, I understood it perfectly, which is why the objection is raised.

Okay, I will try once more to discuss this, but since replies have not addressed all that has been stated in my posts, I will break this up further to make it easier to respond to.

Paul includes himself as being regenerated so he is speacifically speaking about himself receiving a repetition of a birth with the Spirit. The fact that the action of "regeneration" is applied directly to him cannot be denied.

Ephesians 2

1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


Paul makes it clear that they were dead, a condition that Christ witnessed of the Jews He spoke to.


4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved


Paul includes himself in this, and that he was made alive...with Christ.


11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;


Again he focuses on the Gentiles, though keep in mind he has not distinguished between the Jew and the Gentile concerning salvation, of which the New Birth is part.



12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


Take careful note: the Gentiles were alienated from the commonwealth of Israel. Keep that in mind.

Also note, they were without God in the world.


13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


How then were they brought into fellowship with God? Through the blood of Christ. They were separated, but brought nigh by the blood od Christ.

Lets see that word used again:


Ephesians 4

17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:


Having no previous knowledge of God, they were alienated from...the life of God.


20But ye have not so learned Christ;

21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:


How can anyone have spiritual life in Christ if they are ignorant of Him?


22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


The New Man is created in righteousness and true holiness.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

But you seem to deny it despite the fact that the 'regeneration" spoken about in this verse is applied directly to those whom Paul includes in the group defined by the pronoun "us":

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

I am not arguing that men are not regenerated. What I am arguing is that regeneration is a "repetition of spiritual birth."

We would have to see scripture saying, "You must be born from above...again."

In the verse above, you exclude what "us" refers to, salvation, and focus on the work of God, with only one focus: to make man spiritually alive, then, after they have sinned, they are made spiritually alive...again.

Now, while regeneration does speak of Paul directly, do not overlook that salvation is the result, and that salvation is in Christ. Is it thought that the perfection in salvation which Christ brought occurred before the Cross?

Paul underood that his salvation was accomplisehed by 'regeneration." That is not speaking of Adam's regeneration but instead Paul's own personal regeneration. And as I have shown, that regeneration is in regard to a restoration of his previous state when he was born of the Spirit.

And it has been shown several times that outside of Christ...man has no life.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

A few verses from Romans 5:


Romans 5

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

It is through Adam that sin entered the world. And so...death passed to all men.


15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


Clearly death is through the offense of Adam, meaning, we all die...because of him.

Now, the reverse is true, The gift by grace is through one man, Jesus Christ.

Does that mean that man will not die physically? Of course not. So the life that contrasts the death is...spiritual.


18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


I do not see where the offense of Adam...escapes anyone. Judgment came upon all men to condemnation...through Adam.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

So it is not factual to say that the regeneration or restoration of which Paul speaks is in regard to Adam.

I guess what I am saying is just not understood.

I am not saying that Adam himself is regenerated, I am saying man is restored to his condition, the condition Adam had before his sin.

Adam, and man, died the very day he ate of the fruit.

Despite this you say:

Let us look at Israel. The Apostles correctly believed that the Lord would "restore" the kingdom to Israel:
　
"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again (apokathistēmi) the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).

This Greek word apokathistēmi means "to restore to its former state, to be in its former state" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Since restoration is in regard to being put back in a "former state" then common sense dictates that when one is regenerated spiritually then the former state must be one that is spiritual.

And Adam was spiritually in relationship with God. When he sinned, he was cast out of the Garden, and the state of man became different. He was now spiritually dead, he did not have the life of God, but physical life only.

And though he had physical life upon birth, the Lord could say of him:



John 6:53

King James Version (KJV)

53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


In the intense desire to disprove that man is in need of being born again, and to ascribe to him a condition he does not have, you have to overlook Christ's teaching concerning man's condition.

Yes, and when a person sins he dies spiritually and therefore lose the state of being alive spiritually:

Where exactly in scripture is this taught?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).

Death is possible for the born again believer as well. But it is physical death in view.

But, according to James, we are...



James 1:18

King James Version (KJV)

18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


Clearly talking to believers, "beloved brethren." Is mankind a "firstfruits of his creatures," or, are believers firstfruits of his creatures?


I will pause there, as I would dearly love a response to this.

Continued.