Did Foreknow, Forknowledge Right or Wrong?

[percho]

Originally posted to Winman.


I understand you will disagree as will most on the forum, however in Rom 8:29 he did foreknow, means just that. The people he had known before and the word of God tells us who that is in Amos 3:1,2
Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

In Hosea chapter 1 we learn this flock was divided into two fold. One of which would be in the land when the Messiah came and the other scattered over all the earth with the remembrance of them to cease from among men. Deut. 32:26. That could not have referred to the fold known as Jews for the whole world knows who they are and most hate them. Therefore it must refer to the fold scattered among the nations (Gentiles) and known as Gentiles (nations). In chapter 3 of Jeremiah we learn God had given a bill of divorce to this fold and he was showing them as an example to the other fold Judah who in chapter four god told they needed to take away the foreskin of their heart. Judah had been calling these people Uncircumcision (foreskins)
(castaways) thus the reference in Eph. 2:11,12 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (God had given them a bill of divorce)

Foreknowledge twice in KJV. Once in the reference of the death of Christ slain. Duh, of course God had foreknowledge! The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The other 1 Peter 1;2 which is the very people shown above see verse 1.

However as you stated in your post even all of those are not called at this time. God is taking out a people for his name for a specific purpose, a remnant according to the election of grace

He elects them as priests and kings and tells them:
having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself, in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him;

See Acts 15:14,16,17,18 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Notice it is the Lord and those upon whom his name is called that the residue of men seek. The same thing is stated in Joel 2:32 following what was quoted of Joel 2 in Acts 2.

 

[OldRegular]

Ephesians 1:4 tells us:

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

If God chose us in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world then God knew those He chose before the foundation of the world.

 

[marke]

Ephesians 1:4 tells us:

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

If God chose us in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world then God knew those He chose before the foundation of the world.

The fact that God foreknew the elect before He chose them supports the idea that He knew who would receive the knowledge of the truth, as well as those who would reject the knowledge of the truth, and His election is based on His foreknowledge and not that His foreknowledge is based on His election.

I just pointed out on another thread about the potter and the clay that the Potter takes the same lump of sinners and makes vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. It is not the 'sins inherent in the clay' which determines which it will be, since all are equally sinners, but it is the result of the Potters' working of the same clay which brings out the unworkable lumps in some which result in the vessels having to be made dishonorable. If some reject the Lord's command to repent of sins and to be saved, then the vessel itself makes itself unworkable by the Potter for honor.

Jer. 18:3: "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4. "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

God does not begin with the clay to make a vessel of dishonor, but if the clay becomes hardened (some clay 'hardens' itself when exposed to God's word and some does not, but it is still the same clay), then the vessel is made another vessel in the hand of the potter. Nowhere in the passage is any indication that the potter started from scratch to make the vessel of dishonor.

God explains how the Potter works the clay in vs 8: "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them." None of this suggests that God decided from the beginning to make vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor for no other reason other than His own secret will. No, He plainly told them that if they did not repent they would be cast out as broken shards, but if they would only repent, then He would also repent.

Election is based upon God's foreknowledge of how the clay would respond in His hands rather than how He was going to make the clay respond regardless of any response of its own.

 

[OldRegular]

The fact that God foreknew the elect before He chose them supports the idea that He knew who would receive the knowledge of the truth, as well as those who would reject the knowledge of the truth, and His election is based on His foreknowledge and not that His foreknowledge is based on His election.

Basically what you are saying is that man is the author of his election not God! When Scripture states that God "foreknew" it means He personally knew His elect from the beginning.

To say that God knows what is going to happen is meaningless. He would not be God unless He did know.

 

[marke]

Basically what you are saying is that man is the author of his election not God! When Scripture states that God "foreknew" it means He personally knew His elect from the beginning.

To say that God knows what is going to happen is meaningless. He would not be God unless He did know.

Actually, what I pointed out was that God said if men repent of their sins, then He will repent of the judgment He has pronounced against them for those sins. Thank God He has no desire that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Iconoclast]

Actually, what I pointed out was that God said if men repent of their sins, then He will repent of the judgment He has pronounced against them for those sins. Thank God He has no desire that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

You are posting non stop falsehoods....ideas not taught in the bible.

 

[The Archangel]

Actually, what I pointed out was that God said if men repent of their sins, then He will repent of the judgment He has pronounced against them for those sins. Thank God He has no desire that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This simply cannot be--sins must be punished. Never will God say "that's OK don't worry about it..." His holiness absolutely demands that sin be punished--which is the entire point of the Cross.

If, as you say, our repentance from sin brings God to repent from bringing forth impending judgment, you have no need for a Savior or a Cross.

Our forgiveness, our justification, is not based on God's repentance from judgment. Instead, it is based on His outpouring of His just and righteous and furious wrath against sin. He poured this wrath out on Christ who substituted Himself for His people.

We are forgiven because Christ was punished in our place. Without this truth, you (generic "you") have no salvation.

The Archangel

 

[OldRegular]

This simply cannot be--sins must be punished. Never will God say "that's OK don't worry about it..." His holiness absolutely demands that sin be punished--which is the entire point of the Cross.

If, as you say, our repentance from sin brings God to repent from bringing forth impending judgment, you have no need for a Savior or a Cross.

Our forgiveness, our justification, is not based on God's repentance from judgment. Instead, it is based on His outpouring of His just and righteous and furious wrath against sin. He poured this wrath out on Christ who substituted Himself for His people.

We are forgiven because Christ was punished in our place. Without this truth, you (generic "you") have no salvation.

The Archangel

Well said and very moving!

 

[marke]

This simply cannot be--sins must be punished. Never will God say "that's OK don't worry about it..." His holiness absolutely demands that sin be punished--which is the entire point of the Cross.

Of course. God placed on Jesus the sins of the whole world and Jesus bore God's judgment of those sins for the whole world (1 John 2:2).

If, as you say, our repentance from sin brings God to repent from bringing forth impending judgment, you have no need for a Savior or a Cross.

Actually, I quoted God, who said, "If that nation, ... turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them." (Jer. 18:8). Here is a longer quote from Eze. 18: (vs21) "But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." (vs22) "All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live." (vs 23) "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways and live?"

Our forgiveness, our justification, is not based on God's repentance from judgment. Instead, it is based on His outpouring of His just and righteous and furious wrath against sin. He poured this wrath out on Christ who substituted Himself for His people.

Because Jesus became the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, now whosoever will receive the knowledge of the truth and come to God for forgiveness and salvation shall be saved, but whoso rejects God's command to repent and turn to Him for forgiveness will not be saved.

We are forgiven because Christ was punished in our place. Without this truth, you (generic "you") have no salvation.

The Bible doesn't actually say Jesus "took our place", because only Jesus could have borne the sins of the whole world on the cross. That was actually His place alone and, thank God, He willingly took His place and became sin for us that we could be made righteous simply by believing on Him.

The Archangel

Calvinism is based on scripture, just not on some of the scriptures in this post.

 

[The Archangel]

Of course. God placed on Jesus the sins of the whole world and Jesus bore God's judgment of those sins for the whole world (1 John 2:2).

Because Jesus became the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, now whosoever will receive the knowledge of the truth and come to God for forgiveness and salvation shall be saved, but whoso rejects God's command to repent and turn to Him for forgiveness will not be saved.

Calvinism is based on scripture, just not on some of the scriptures in this post.

At this point, the issue is not whether Christ died for the sins of the whole world (everyone without exception) or if He died for His elect only. The point, actually, is much more basic than that.

The point, which I fear you are missing, is that our salvation (Justification) is not based on God simply not holding our sin against us. Rather, our justification is based on God's holding our sin against Christ.

Actually, I quoted God, who said, "If that nation, ... turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them." (Jer. 18:8). Here is a longer quote from Eze. 18: (vs21) "But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." (vs22) "All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live." (vs 23) "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways and live?"

In the Jeremiah passage, God is indeed talking, but He is not talking to us. The passage is directly addressed to "the house of Israel."

As I'm sure you know, Israel enjoyed a special relationship with Yahweh. That relationship was built around the Covenant given at Sinai. In that Covenant there were both blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience.

Jeremiah, being a prophet, was charged by God to hold the people to the Covenant. So, in his preaching--as exemplified in the episode at the potter's house in Jeremiah 18--he is calling Israel to return to covenant faithfulness. If Israel returned to covenant faithfulness, God would not bring about the "curses" for their disobedience.

This has nothing to do with the world at large. The issue here is covenant faithfulness--something Israel never really had. This cannot apply to the unbelievers, as you suggest, because unbelievers are not in Covenant with God to begin with.

The Ezekiel passage is likewise written to the house of Israel and, therefore, doesn't apply globally as you suggest precisely because it is talking about a return to covenant faithfulness.

Also, if you press your comments too far, one would have to argue that you are believing in a "works" salvation.

If you quote these verses without understanding the implications of the Covenant at Sinai for the "House of Israel" you run into a big problem. Let me illustrate. Here is the passage:

[21] “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. [22] None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live.(Ezekiel 18:21-22 ESV)
​

It certainly looks like, in this passage, that a person is saved by undoing his or her transgressions through doing what is right. This is not salvation by grace. Rather, this salvation by works. This is one of the problems with thinking that this passage, just because it is in the Bible, fits any situation. There is context, there is an intended audience, and that audience is Israel and the context is covenant faithfulness.

The Bible doesn't actually say Jesus "took our place", because only Jesus could have borne the sins of the whole world on the cross. That was actually His place alone and, thank God, He willingly took His place and became sin for us that we could be made righteous simply by believing on Him.

Actually, it does. The use of the word "Propitiation" means that the wrath of God has been appeased by that wrath being poured out on a substitute.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[percho]

The goal.

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

God might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in him:

How? Does the how require foreknowledge and or foreknow.

Foreknowledge

The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Did Foreknow
Does the OT state this will also be brought about by a people for the sake of God's name known by God. Ezek. 36:17-27 In Joel 2:32 is the salvation in the Lord and the remnant? Is this confirmed in the NT in passages like Acts 15:14,16,17 With a remnant Rom 11:5 according to what? Eph 2:8

Throughout the OT God said he was doing these things a peculiar people. Does he apply this same description to the called out ones of the NT. If he was going to do in the OT and is doing in the NT, do you think these might be the same?

Is God doing what God said he was going to do or did he because of what some men did change his plan and do something different? Is that the God we know?


BTW Jesus the Christ died for the sin of the whole world. The Goal.

 

[Tom Butler]

One can make the argument that God's foreknowledge is based on his decree (or determinate counsel). In other words, God knows whom because he has determined those whom he will know regarding his relationship with them.

It may also be argued that God knows the future because he has determined the future.

And then, we have them going hand in hand, as in Acts 2:23

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Notice that the events surrounding the Christ's crucifixion involve both God's sovereignty and human responsibility.

It was God who determined to deliver his Son to be crucified.And it was God who decreed the circumstances under which it would happen. But the hands who crucified Him were wicked, thus responsible.

God was not caught by surprise, no was his decree thwarted by human will. In fact, Jesus' killers acted perfectly within God's decree and foreknowledge.

All this planned from eternity. As a wise friend of mine once observed, "Did it ever occur to you that nothing ever occurs to God."

 

[JesusFan]

The fact that God foreknew the elect before He chose them supports the idea that He knew who would receive the knowledge of the truth, as well as those who would reject the knowledge of the truth, and His election is based on His foreknowledge and not that His foreknowledge is based on His election.

I just pointed out on another thread about the potter and the clay that the Potter takes the same lump of sinners and makes vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. It is not the 'sins inherent in the clay' which determines which it will be, since all are equally sinners, but it is the result of the Potters' working of the same clay which brings out the unworkable lumps in some which result in the vessels having to be made dishonorable. If some reject the Lord's command to repent of sins and to be saved, then the vessel itself makes itself unworkable by the Potter for honor.

Jer. 18:3: "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4. "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

God does not begin with the clay to make a vessel of dishonor, but if the clay becomes hardened (some clay 'hardens' itself when exposed to God's word and some does not, but it is still the same clay), then the vessel is made another vessel in the hand of the potter. Nowhere in the passage is any indication that the potter started from scratch to make the vessel of dishonor.

God explains how the Potter works the clay in vs 8: "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them." None of this suggests that God decided from the beginning to make vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor for no other reason other than His own secret will. No, He plainly told them that if they did not repent they would be cast out as broken shards, but if they would only repent, then He would also repent.

Election is based upon God's foreknowledge of how the clay would respond in His hands rather than how He was going to make the clay respond regardless of any response of its own.

God foreknowledge regarding his aints is based upon the fact that he knew them personally/individually, as he determined them to be the Elect based upon his divine will, not based upon either our wills, or seeing us placing our faith apart from Him into christ!

God knew us as he arranged us to be saved, based upon his divine election, totally due His work, not ours!

He knew us intimate/personal fashion, as election came from Him to us, not us up to Him!