Born in Sins part2

[DHK]

DHK,

I asked you:

So do you agree with the Calvinists when they say that Adam and Eve's spiritual death was conveyed to all of their posterity by means of ordinary generation?

You answered in the following way and cited the Scriptures which you think teaches that Adam and Eve's spiritual death was conveyed to all of their posterity:

None of those verses except one says a thing about how a person dies spiritually.

Let us look at the one verse which you cited that does show how a person dies spiritually:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12; KJV).

That verse supports my view and not yours. A person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin and not because Adam's spiritual death is conveyed to him.

Since a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin then common sense dictates that he must be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually. Therefore it is impossible that a person comes into the world spiritually dead, as you believe.

All of the translations of Romans 5:12 which I can find teach the same truth:

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned" (NKJV).

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (NIV).

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" (NASB).

"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned" (RSV).

The same truth is also revealed in the NLT, ESV, ASV, YLT, DBY, WEB and HNV.

Why should we not believe what Paul teaches at Romans 5:12, that men die spiritually as a result of his own sin and NOT as a result of Adam's sin?

(Rom 5:18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Judgment is not simply death. It is spiritual death. It is the sin nature as well. Only by the righteousness of One, Jesus Christ, can the free gift (eternal life or salvation) comes upon all men, and that by justification.
A man is justified by faith.
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
Nowhere does it teach that our sin nature is eradicated.

Two chapters later Paul presents his case as he describes his sin nature warring against the new nature he received at salvation:

(Rom 7:15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
(Rom 7:16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
--Why the war; the contradiction? Why is it so hard for him to do good when he wants. He does evil instead. And when he wants to avoid evil he does it any way, even though he has a new nature in Christ. He has a sin nature that wars against his new nature. It is described here in very vivid terms.

(Rom 7:17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
--If "sin dwells in me" that refers to the sin nature. What else can it refer to? There is no such thing as innocence. Man has sin dwelling in him all the time. Even from birth onward. Only when he receives his new life in Christ is he able to have some strength to overcome it, and even then it is a battle, as Paul describes. Sin indwells even the infant. It indwells all people for we are born with it; born with a sin nature. There is no such thing as innocence.

(Rom 7:18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
--Remember Paul is talking as a saved individual here. "in me dwells no good thing." He is evil by nature. He refers again to his sin nature. Man is sinful by nature.

(Rom 7:19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
(Rom 7:20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
--The same struggle is repeated as before: the sin nature vs. the new nature.

(Rom 7:24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
--Near the end of this great struggle between the two natures he cries out in desperation: "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

And then the answer comes:
(Rom 7:25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--The mind serves the law of God.
The flesh serves the law of sin.
The battle is in the mind. With our minds we yield ourselves to the Spirit of God; we yield ourselves to Christ, and his commands.

(Rom 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
--After a victorious statement of never being under the condemnation of sin again, he proclaims that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has made him free from the law of sin and death. The Christian is free from the law. He is under grace not the law. No man can keep the law. The law demonstrates our sinfulness, our sinful nature, our inability to attain sinlessness.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

(Rom 5:18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Judgment is not simply death. It is spiritual death.

You say that and then you spend the rest of your post evading the obvious teaching of what Paul said here:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12; KJV).

That verse supports my view and not yours. A person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin and not because Adam's spiritual death is conveyed to him.

Since a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin then common sense dictates that he must be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually. Therefore it is impossible that a person comes into the world spiritually dead, as you believe.

You said absolutely nothing that proves that my interpretatiom of what Paul said at Romans 5:12 is wrong. In fact, you said nothing at all about what Paul said there even though it was you who cited that verse in an effort to prove that all are born spiritually dead as a result of Adam's sin.

 

[DHK]

You say that and then you spend the rest of your post evading the obvious teaching of what Paul said here:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12; KJV).

That verse supports my view and not yours. A person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin and not because Adam's spiritual death is conveyed to him.

Since a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin then common sense dictates that he must be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually. Therefore it is impossible that a person comes into the world spiritually dead, as you believe.

You said absolutely nothing that proves that my interpretatiom of what Paul said at Romans 5:12 is wrong. In fact, you said nothing at all about what Paul said there even though it was you who cited that verse in an effort to prove that all are born spiritually dead as a result of Adam's sin.

Ha Ha. Avoiding yours! You isolate your verse, verse 12 from the rest of the chapter and try and make it mean something it doesn't. It is interpreted by the context that it is in. That is why I quoted verse 18--in order to give context. Do the two verses contradict each other? Of course not. But your interpretation of verse 12 contradicts the clear teaching of verse 18. Thus you have no refutation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

HP: This verse tells me that if we are to receive of the gift of God we also will have to be obedient to His stated conditions of salvation (although not the same issues involved with Christ's obedience) just as one has to willingly yield themselves to sin to be a partaker of Adam's sin, even though ones sin are not in like kind to those of Adam.

If you take the first part of this verse and conclude that all men are sinners because of Adam, or that all men sinned in Adam, you would also have to treat the latter part of the verse in the same manner. One would then have to say that through Christ all are made righteous by His free gift unto the justification of life, with universalism being logically implied.

One has to be totally inconsistent with their interpretation between the first part of Romans 5:18 and the latter part of that verse, to conclude 'all men universally are sinners because of Adam,' or that 'all men universally sinned in Adam.'

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Ha Ha. Avoiding yours! You isolate your verse, verse 12 from the rest of the chapter and try and make it mean something it doesn't.

I have given you my interpretation of the following verse and all you can say is that I make it say something that it does not.

If my interpretation of the verse is wrong then it must mean something else. Give me your interpretation of the meaning of Paul's words here:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

But your interpretation of verse 12 contradicts the clear teaching of verse 18. Thus you have no refutation.

My interpretation does not contradict anything:

"Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men" (Ro.5:18).

Let us back up to the following verse to see exactly how the result of Adam's sin resulted in death and condemnation for all:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

From this we can understand the following: (1) Sin entered the world when Adam sinned and that sin brought about spiritual death. (2) Adam's sin was somehow responsible for bringing spiritual death to all men. (3) This death came to all men because all have sinned.

What this verse does not tell us is exactly "how" Adam was responsible for bring death to all men. However, the verses which follow were written in order to explain how Adam's sin brought death to all men:

"...for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:13).

These verses are speaking of "law" in a universal sense (death passed to all men), and the only universal law that has been in effect since Moses is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said:

"Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil " (Gen.3:22).

Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart. Dr. Renald E. Showers writes that "Genesis 3:5 and 22 indicate that mankind obtained its awareness of good and evil as a result of eating the forbidden fruit. In other words, the human conscience began when man rebelled against God...Paul indicated that the conscience is the awareness of good and evil which exists inside human beings. It condemns people internally when they do something in the category of evil, and it commends them internally when they do something in the category of good" (Showers, The Second Dispensation, Ankerberg Theological Research Institute).

All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

If Adam would have obeyed the Lord then he would have remained in a state of "innocence" and "law" would not have come upon his descendants. And "when there is no law, sin is not imputed." If sin is not imputed then there would be no spiritual death.

So nothing I said about anything contradicts my interpretation of the following verse:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

If my interpretation of the verse is wrong then it must mean something else. Give me your interpretation of the meaning of Paul's words at Romans 5:12.

 

[DHK]

"...for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:13).

These verses are speaking of "law" in a universal sense (death passed to all men), and the only universal law that has been in effect since Moses is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said:

"Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil " (Gen.3:22).

Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart. Dr. Renald E. Showers writes that "Genesis 3:5 and 22 indicate that mankind obtained its awareness of good and evil as a result of eating the forbidden fruit. In other words, the human conscience began when man rebelled against God...Paul indicated that the conscience is the awareness of good and evil which exists inside human beings. It condemns people internally when they do something in the category of evil, and it commends them internally when they do something in the category of good" (Showers, The Second Dispensation, Ankerberg Theological Research Institute).

I don't agree with this. I believe he is wrong.
It is quite evident that there was law in the Garden, and Adam disobeyed it. "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." That is law. Adam disobeyed God, as did Eve. Cain disobeyed the law. He committed murder. In Genesis 4, just a few generations after Abel, Lamech, again commits murder and also polygamy. He knows it is wrong. By this time God has established a law of sacrifice. Cain's "works" sacrifice was not accepted. In Genesis six, there was so much evil in the earth that the whole world was destroyed by water, but Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord. There was law. They disobeyed God's law and were seriously punished because of it. Even after being graciously saved, Noah departed from the Ark and then got drunk. On and on we go throughout human history of the sin of mankind. There has always been law; and there has always been man to break God's law. Man has never been able to keep God's law.

All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

The sin nature is part of the curse. It is part of the fall of Adam. It is passed from generation to generation as the Scriptures show--collectively.

]If Adam would have obeyed the Lord then he would have remained in a state of "innocence" and "law" would not have come upon his descendants. And "when there is no law, sin is not imputed." If sin is not imputed then there would be no spiritual death.

You misinterpret the verse and add some speculation in for good measure. There is nothing that says or even infers what you are saying. If you begin with a false premise you will end with a false conclusion.

So nothing I said about anything contradicts my interpretation of the following verse:

But you have.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

(Ro.5:12).

If my interpretation of the verse is wrong then it must mean something else. Give me your interpretation of the meaning of Paul's words at Romans 5:12.

Death, because of Adam's sin has passed upon all men. Not just physical death but spiritual death. That spiritual death is a result of sin which comes from a sin nature. We sin because we want to sin, but that is only half the truth. We also sin because we have a nature to sin. We are born with a nature, a given propensity to do that which is against the will of God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

DHK,

Earlier I said:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

If my interpretation of the verse is wrong then it must mean something else. Give me your interpretation of the meaning of Paul's words at Romans 5:12.

Here is what you said:

Death, because of Adam's sin has passed upon all men. Not just physical death but spiritual death. That spiritual death is a result of sin which comes from a sin nature.

Paul, at Romans 5:12, says in no uncertain terms that death has passed upon all men BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED.

But you flatly deny this truth because you say that "That spiritual death is a result of sin which comes from a sin nature."

You are so confused that you cannot understand the difference between someone dying spiritually as a result of his own sin and someone being dead spiritually as a result of his own nature.

Since a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin then common sense dictates that he must be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually. Therefore it is impossible that a person comes into the world spiritually dead, as you believe. A man comes into the world spiritually alive so he is not born with a sin nature.

Since you are confused you just deny what Paul says here:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

It is quite evident that there was law in the Garden, and Adam disobeyed it. "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." That is law.

Beginning in Romans 2 Paul speaks of "law" and he includes two different categories under "law." One is the Mosaic Covenant (the law) and the others is the law which is written in men's hearts of which the "conscience" bears witness.

So when he uses the word "law" at Romans 5:13 it is in regard to the conscience and not to the commandment which was given to Adam and Eve. And the words at verse 13 follow IMMEDIATELY after Paul speaks of death in a universal sense and the only "law" which existed universally then or at any time is the "conscience."

The sin nature is part of the curse. It is part of the fall of Adam. It is passed from generation to generation as the Scriptures show--collectively.

According to you the sins of Adam and Eve were passed down to all of their posterity, and as a result of that sin all men are dead spiritually at birth. Since their posterity includes their sons Cain and Abel then according to you both Cain and Abel die spiritually as a result of their father's sin despite the fact God will do no such thing, as witnessed by the following passage:

"The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent's sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child's sins" (Ez.18:20).

According to your ideas both Cain and Abel came out of the womb dead spiritually as a result of their father's sin despite the fact that the Scriptures state in no uncertain terms that "the child will not be punished for the parent's sins."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: My question would be: How could a Fair and Just God tell a person spiritually dead that he was to, and was able to, rule over the enemy of his soul and temptation?

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

 

[DHK]

HP: My question would be: How could a Fair and Just God tell a person spiritually dead that he was to, and was able to, rule over the enemy of his soul and temptation?

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Oh PLeeeease!!!!
Questions like the atheists like to ask. Do you stoop that low?
How can a loving God send a person to hell?
Do you ask that question too?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Nope:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

DHK,
Paul, at Romans 5:12, says in no uncertain terms that death has passed upon all men BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED.

But you flatly deny this truth because you say that "That spiritual death is a result of sin which comes from a sin nature."

(Rom 5:12) Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned. (Darby)
For that all sinned (Ephesians' hōi pantes hēmarton). Constative (summary) aorist active indicative of hamartanō, gathering up in this one tense the history of the race (committed sin). The transmission from Adam became facts of experience. In the old Greek Ephesians' hōi usually meant “on condition that,” but “because” in N.T. (Robertson, Grammar, p. 963).

You are so confused that you cannot understand the difference between someone dying spiritually as a result of his own sin and someone being dead spiritually as a result of his own nature.

Do you now recognize that man has a sin nature that separates him from God? Good for you. Progress is being made.

Since a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin then common sense dictates that he must be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually. Therefore it is impossible that a person comes into the world spiritually dead, as you believe. A man comes into the world spiritually alive so he is not born with a sin nature.

Your logic does not make sense. He is not born into God's family, then kicked out of God's family, only to be "born again" into God's family. God is not cruel. Or do you believe in that song: "You must be born again and again and again." I think some free-willers sing it. You say a person has to be born by God twice!! The Bible doesn't teach that my friend.

Since you are confused you just deny what Paul says here:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

I am not the one that is confused. You claim that one must be born again and again. That is not Biblical.
1. By one man sin entered into the world.
2. And death by sin.
3. Therefore death (spiritual death) has passed upon all men (mankind, which includes infants--separation from God.).
This is proof positive that all have a sin nature. All are separated from God. All are sinners. All have sinned. No one is innocent. You can deny this truth if you want. You do. By doing so you twist its meaning to mean something it doesn't really mean.

Beginning in Romans 2 Paul speaks of "law" and he includes two different categories under "law." One is the Mosaic Covenant (the law) and the others is the law which is written in men's hearts of which the "conscience" bears witness.

Chapters 1-3 are one section in and of itself. Chapter two is not connected with chapter five.

So when he uses the word "law" at Romans 5:13 it is in regard to the conscience and not to the commandment which was given to Adam and Eve.

No, you are wrong. A law is a commandment. A commandment was given to Adam and Eve and they disobeyed. There has always been law as long as man has been on this earth. Your interpretation is wrong.

And the words at verse 13 follow IMMEDIATELY after Paul speaks of death in a universal sense and the only "law" which existed universally then or at any time is the "conscience."

That is not true, is it.
Even in Genesis 9:6 God instituted a law for Capital Punishment,

(Gen 9:6) Whosoever shall shed man's blood, his blood shall be shed: for man was made to the image of God.
--The Lord had already established governmental laws by this early time, or at least instructed man to do so.

According to you the sins of Adam and Eve were passed down to all of their posterity, and as a result of that sin all men are dead spiritually at birth. Since their posterity includes their sons Cain and Abel then according to you both Cain and Abel die spiritually as a result of their father's sin despite the fact God will do no such thing, as witnessed by the following passage:

"The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent's sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child's sins" (Ez.18:20).

You have taken this passage out of context and try to make it mean something it doesn't. Whey will you learn to read things in context? What does the verse talk about?
Read the whole passage:
(Eze 18:14) Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,

(Eze 18:15) That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,

(Eze 18:16) Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,

(Eze 18:17) That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.

(Eze 18:18) As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.

(Eze 18:19) Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

(Eze 18:20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
--If you will just read the passage it is speaking of murder, cruelty, oppression, and other capital offenses. Why should the son of a murderer, for example, be punished for the murder that his father has committed. He should not have to bear the guilt of those wrongs that his father has committed. This is what the Lord is teaching. It has nothing to do with the depravity of sin, or the Adamic nature being passed down. You guys using this verse like this are way out to lunch.

According to your ideas both Cain and Abel came out of the womb dead spiritually as a result of their father's sin despite the fact that the Scriptures state in no uncertain terms that "the child will not be punished for the parent's sins."

Please read what the Bible says before making ridiculous statements.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

(Rom 5:12) Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned. (Darby)

Here is the only translation by John Nelson Darby which I can find:

"For this [cause], even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12; DBY).

For that all sinned (Ephesians' hōi pantes hēmarton). Constative (summary) aorist active indicative of hamartanō, gathering up in this one tense the history of the race (committed sin). The transmission from Adam became facts of experience. In the old Greek Ephesians' hōi usually meant “on condition that,” but “because” in N.T. (Robertson, Grammar, p. 963).

Is that the best you can do in your effort to pervert what Paul so plainly says at Romans 5:12?

It is amazing the lengths that some people will go in order to get rid of the idea that people die spiritually as a result of their own sin and not as a result of their own sin. Here Paul is saying that he was alive spiritually before he broke a commandment and then says that as a result of that sin he died spiritually:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

In The Bible Knowledge Commentary writtern by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary, we read the following commentary on Romans 7:9:

"As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, edited by Walvoord & Zuck [Colorado Springs: ChariotVictor Publshing, 1983], 467).

Yes, Paul makes it plain at another place that spiritual death comes as a result of breaking God's law:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

Here Paul is contrasting that which brings spiritual life (the New Testament) with the Ten commandments, which bring death. The death spoken of must be in regard to a "spiritual" death because it would make no sense for Paul to be contrasting these things if one spoke of "spiritual" life while the other speaks of some other kind of death.

Instead of taking this clear teaching from the Bible in regard to how people die spiritually you want to believe the gobbledecook offered by by one Greek teacher who is intent on putting a square peg in a round hole in order to make Romans 5:12 fit his preconceived ideas.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

That's good preaching Jerry. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

Here is the only translation by John Nelson Darby which I can find:

"For this [cause], even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12; DBY).
Is that the best you can do in your effort to pervert what Paul so plainly says at Romans 5:12?

It is amazing the lengths that some people will go in order to get rid of the idea that people die spiritually as a result of their own sin and not as a result of their own sin. Here Paul is saying that he was alive spiritually before he broke a commandment and then says that as a result of that sin he died spiritually:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

In The Bible Knowledge Commentary writtern by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary, we read the following commentary on Romans 7:9:

"As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, edited by Walvoord & Zuck [Colorado Springs: ChariotVictor Publshing, 1983], 467).

Yes, Paul makes it plain at another place that spiritual death comes as a result of breaking God's law:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

Here Paul is contrasting that which brings spiritual life (the New Testament) with the Ten commandments, which bring death. The death spoken of must be in regard to a "spiritual" death because it would make no sense for Paul to be contrasting these things if one spoke of "spiritual" life while the other speaks of some other kind of death.

Instead of taking this clear teaching from the Bible in regard to how people die spiritually you want to believe the gobbledecook offered by by one Greek teacher who is intent on putting a square peg in a round hole in order to make Romans 5:12 fit his preconceived ideas.

There is nothing wrong in what you have said about Romans 7. But that has nothing to do with Romans 5:12 which you completely ignore, and brush off the scholarly Robertson as being ignorant. I don't think that he is the one that is ignorant when he gives the meaning of the verse from the Greek. It is not so easily dismissed. And a conversation that Paul has comparing the new nature to his old nature two chapters later becomes irrelevant.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is nothing wrong in what you have said about Romans 7.

So you agree that Paul said that he died spiritually as a result of his own sin. Then how do you explain this?

A person must first be alive "spiritually" before he can die spiritually."

But how could Paul have died spiritually when he broke the law if he was born spiritually dead? Again, before a person can die spiritually he must first be alive spiritually.

And when Paul speaks of being "alive" in the following verse he must be speaking about being alive spiritually:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died"(Ro.7:9).

How could Paul have said that he was alive spiritually before he sinned if he was dead spiritually since he came out of the womb?

 

[DHK]

So you agree that Paul said that he died spiritually as a result of his own sin. Then how do you explain this?

Paul was giving his own testimony.

A person must first be alive "spiritually" before he can die spiritually.

A dead dog is dead. What can you say to the dog to make it alive. Nothing. But if it were the will of God, Christ could come and raise it from the dead, couldn't he? We are born spiritually dead. Christ comes along and makes one spiritually alive. Is that such a hard concept to understand?

But how could Paul have died spiritually when he broke the law if he was born spiritually dead? Again, before a person can die spiritually he must first be alive spiritually.

It was the law that showed him his sin. It was the law that pointed him to Christ. It was that law that showed him his "spiritual deadness." Before that he thought he was doing the will of God.

And when Paul speaks of being "alive" in the following verse he must be speaking about being alive spiritually:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died"(Ro.7:9).

The commandment was already there. It was always there. He is giving his testimony. Was there any point in the life of Paul when the law was not in effect?

How could Paul have said that he was alive spiritually before he sinned if he was dead spiritually since he came out of the womb?

Because he had been spiritually dead, even though he didn't realize it. It was a combination of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God that caused an awakening in his heart. He was dead--separated from God. There is no man that is spiritually alive before they are born again. That is heresy. He is giving his testimony. He thought he was doing the will of God before that time, but he wasn't. The command came (of Christ), and he realized his own sinfulness before Christ; his separation from God. He wasn't doing the will of God after all. He was going against the will of God. Your theology states that a man must be born again and again and again. What heresy is this!!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul was giving his own testimony.

Of course he was and he makes it plain that he was alive spiritually before he died spiritually:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died"(Ro.7:9).

I asked you, How could Paul have said that he was alive spiritually before he sinned if he was dead spiritually since he came out of the womb?

Here is your answer:

Because he had been spiritually dead, even though he didn't realize it.

I asked you how Paul could have said that he was alive spiritually if he came out of the womb dead spiritually and you say "because he was spiritually dead"! Of course that makes no sense to anyone but yourself.

Then you continue:

It was a combination of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God that caused an awakening in his heart. He was dead--separated from God.

So are you saying that he became alive spiritually by a combination of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God and then AFTER that he broke the commandment and died spiritually?

Do you actually believe that a saved person dies spiritually when he sins? Again, are you saying that the experience of his occured after he was saved?:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died"(Ro.7:9).

Are you saying that Paul received spiritual life through the gospel that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit and then after that he died spiritually when he broke the commandment?

 

[DHK]

Of course he was and he makes it plain that he was alive spiritually before he died spiritually:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died"(Ro.7:9).

I asked you, How could Paul have said that he was alive spiritually before he sinned if he was dead spiritually since he came out of the womb?

Here is your answer:

I asked you how Paul could have said that he was alive spiritually if he came out of the womb dead spiritually and you say "because he was spiritually dead"! Of course that makes no sense to anyone but yourself.

Please explain how Paul was spiritually alive before he was saved?
Or how he was saved before he was saved,
Or how he was born again before he was born again?

Please explain your stance here.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Please explain how Paul was spiritually alive before he was saved?

I have always said that a person is born alive spiritually and he doesn't die spiritually until he sins. And here Paul speaks of being alive spiritually before he sinned:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

In The Bible Knowledge Commentary writtern by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary, we read the following commentary on Romans 7:9:

"As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, edited by Walvoord & Zuck [Colorado Springs: ChariotVictor Publshing, 1983], 467).

Paul makes it plain that spiritual death comes as a result of breaking God's law.

To this you said:

There is nothing wrong in what you have said about Romans 7.

Then you said that it was the Holy Spirit and the Word of God that caused an awakening in Paul's heart:

It was a combination of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God that caused an awakening in his heart.

Now please answer my questions:

So are you saying that he became alive spiritually by a combination of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God and then AFTER that he broke the commandment and died spiritually?

Do you actually believe that a saved person dies spiritually when he sins? Again, are you saying that the experience of his occured after he was saved?:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died"(Ro.7:9).

Are you saying that Paul received spiritual life through the gospel that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit and then after that he died spiritually when he broke the commandment?

It should be a simple thing for you to answer these questions since you obviously believe that you are an expert in regard to spiritual death.

 

[DHK]

I have always said that a person is born alive spiritually and he doesn't die spiritually until he sins. And here Paul speaks of being alive spiritually before he sinned:

So he is born into God's family twice: once at birth and once later in life--born again and again.

In The Bible Knowledge Commentary writtern by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary, we read the following commentary on Romans 7:9:

"As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, edited by Walvoord & Zuck [Colorado Springs: ChariotVictor Publshing, 1983], 467).

I have the commentary. You can be assured that is not all they wrote.

Paul makes it plain that spiritual death comes as a result of breaking God's law.

Paul was not speaking of a salvation testimony. He was speaking of the struggle of two natures within him as a Christian--one was an old depraved nature and the other was the new nature of Christ.

To this you said:

Then you said that it was the Holy Spirit and the Word of God that caused an awakening in Paul's heart:

In reference to any person's salvation, that is true.

Now please answer my questions:

So are you saying that he became alive spiritually by a combination of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God and then AFTER that he broke the commandment and died spiritually?

Paul could only become alive spiritually, when according to his testimony in Acts chapter 9, he called Jesus Lord. That is when he was born again. Calling Christ Lord for a Jew was submitting to Christ as Lord and master of his life. He then said "Lord what would you have me to do."
Before that time he was spiritually dead, even from infancy.
He was born again by a combination of the working of the Holy Spirit through the Word of God (See John 3:3-5; 1Pet.1:23).

Do you actually believe that a saved person dies spiritually when he sins? Again, are you saying that the experience of his occured after he was saved?:

Death means separation. Every time we sin we are separated from God. Our fellowship is not restored until we confess our sins, and Christ forgives us our sin (1John 1:9; Psa.66:18)

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died"

(Ro.7:9).

Are you saying that Paul received spiritual life through the gospel that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit and then after that he died spiritually when he broke the commandment?

The entire chapter speaks of his conflict between two natures as a Christian. When one breaks God's law as a Christian, he will find himself separated from God spiritually until he repents of his sin. Then fellowship is restored.

It should be a simple thing for you to answer these questions since you obviously believe that you are an expert in regard to spiritual death.

It was quite simple. We are sinners from birth. We are born again only once--not again and again. That is a heresy.