Born in Sins part2

[Jerry Shugart]

So he is born into God's family twice: once at birth and once later in life--born again and again.

Is English your second language?

When Paul was conceived in the womb he was "born of the Spirit." Then sometime after he sinned and died spiritually he was confronted by the Lord Jesus on the Damascus road and at that time he was born of the Spirit again.

The first time he was born of the Spirit is not being "born again."

These things are so simple you you continue to put man's traditions above what the Scriptures actually reveal. earlier I said the following;

Here Paul is saying that he was alive spiritually before he broke a commandment and then says that as a result of that sin he died spiritually:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

In The Bible Knowledge Commentary writtern by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary, we read the following commentary on Romans 7:9:

"As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, edited by Walvoord & Zuck [Colorado Springs: ChariotVictor Publshing, 1983], 467).

To this you said:

There is nothing wrong in what you have said about Romans 7.

After reading what I said and after examining what the Scriptures actually say you agreed that a person dies spiritually as a result of their own sin.

But when I explained the implications of that truth to you and the fact that that truths completely destroys the idea of Original Sin you suddenly change your mind. Instead of believing what the Scriptures actually say you now reject those truths and put the idea of Original Sin above the Scriptures. All of a sudden you must prevert what Paul said at Romans 7:9-11. Here is what you now say;

Paul was not speaking of a salvation testimony. He was speaking of the struggle of two natures within him as a Christian--one was an old depraved nature and the other was the new nature of Christ.

So you are saying that when Paul broke the commandment then that sin caused the death of his new nature in Christ?:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

Exactly in what sense did Paul die when he broke the commandment?

 

[DHK]

Is English your second language?

When Paul was conceived in the womb he was "born of the Spirit." Then sometime after he sinned and died spiritually he was confronted by the Lord Jesus on the Damascus road and at that time he was born of the Spirit again.

The first time he was born of the Spirit is not being "born again."

These things are so simple you you continue to put man's traditions above what the Scriptures actually reveal. earlier I said the following;

If it is all really that simple, and not just mere philosophy, demonstrate from Scripture that a man is "born of the Spirit" at birth.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If it is all really that simple, and not just mere philosophy, demonstrate from Scripture that a man is "born of the Spirit" at birth.

I will and of course you will work your best to pervert what the Scriptures do say.

In the following verse the Apostle Paul describes how he was saved:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit."

If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit.

Paul was not speaking of a salvation testimony. He was speaking of the struggle of two natures within him as a Christian--one was an old depraved nature and the other was the new nature of Christ.

So you are saying that when Paul broke the commandment then that sin caused the death of his new nature in Christ?:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

Exactly in what sense did Paul die when he broke the commandment?

 

[DHK]

I will and of course you will work your best to pervert what the Scriptures do say.

In the following verse the Apostle Paul describes how he was saved:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit."

If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit.

Your explanation is fine with one exception. The new birth can only take place when there is understanding. There is no understanding at birth. Regeneration can only take place when there is understanding. There is no understanding at birth. The washing of regeneration is a washing by the Word of God. No infant understands the Word of God. This new birth is the same new birth that Jesus speaks of in John 3:1-8. There is no other new birth or born again experience described in the Bible. There is only one. There is only one time in a person's life when he is regenerated, and this verse refers to that time.

It is heresy to say you must be born again and again and again. The new birth does not take place multiple times, not even twice. It only takes place once in the lifetime of a person.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It is heresy to say you must be born again and again and again. The new birth does not take place multiple times, not even twice. It only takes place once in the lifetime of a person.

I have already explained this to you but for some reason you cannot grasp this SIMPLE truth. When a person is born of the Spirit at conception in the womb that cannot be called being "born again." After a person sins and then believes the gospel then he is once again born of the Spirit and only then can it be said that he is "born again."

So no one is saying that the new birth is taking place multiple times or even twice.

Regeneration can only take place when there is understanding. There is no understanding at birth.

Let me go through this again and perhaps you will finally understand the the REgeneration refers to a "repetition of a birth." It is only the second birth by the Spirit that can be referred to a "regeneration." the first birth by the Spirit is not a "regeneration."

The word "regeneration" is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

The only birth that can be referred to as a "regeneration" is the one that is the repetition of the first one.

Are you really this dense or are you merely playing games in the hope that no one will notice that you continue to dodge the questions which I asked you about what you said here:

Paul was not speaking of a salvation testimony. He was speaking of the struggle of two natures within him as a Christian--one was an old depraved nature and the other was the new nature of Christ.

So you are saying that when Paul broke the commandment then that sin caused the death of his new nature in Christ?:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

Exactly in what sense did Paul die when he broke the commandment?

 

[DHK]

I have already explained this to you but for some reason you cannot grasp this SIMPLE truth. When a person is born of the Spirit at conception in the womb that cannot be called being "born again." After a person sins and then believes the gospel then he is once again born of the Spirit and only then can it be said that he is "born again."

You are right. No person in the womb has ever been called born again by anyone but you. This is outlandish doctrine. There is only one "new birth" taught in the Bible, not two, three, four, etc.

So no one is saying that the new birth is taking place multiple times or even twice.

You are. A man who has one wife is a monogamist. A man who has two or more wives is a polygamist. A man who believes one must get into heaven by two or more births is a....." Jesus said you must be born again. Not born again and again and again.

Let me go through this again and perhaps you will finally understand the the REgeneration refers to a "repetition of a birth." It is only the second birth by the Spirit that can be referred to a "regeneration." the first birth by the Spirit is not a "regeneration."

The word "regeneration" is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

The only birth that can be referred to as a "regeneration" is the one that is the repetition of the first one.

Sorry to say but your explanation sounds more like the Hindu belief of reincarnation. How many times does a person have to be reincarnated before he reaches nirvana? or salvation? This is not Christianity in my view. Consider the context of John 3

(Joh 3:1) There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
(Joh 3:2) The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
--Nicodemus had heard Christ, seen his miracles, and no doubt knew in his heart that he was the Messiah. He came, wanting to know about the kingdom or eternal life. What did Jesus say?

(Joh 3:3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
--The message: You must be born again!
--You cannot see the kingdom of God unless you are born again.

Look at Nicodemus's answer:
(Joh 3:4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
--Nicodemus is as confused as you are. How can he enter into his mother's womb a second time. It almost sounds like he is referring to reincarnation here. Whatever, it is a clear reference to a physical birth. How can a man be born physically twice? He cannot.

Jesus answer:
(Joh 3:5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(Joh 3:6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
--There are two kinds of births. One is physical.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That is how we all got into this world.
The other birth is spiritual. Nicodemus, you must be born again. You have been born once (physically), now you must be born again (spiritually).

If you are born once; you will die twice.
If you are born twice you will die once.

All of mankind is born into the family of the devil. They need to be born again; born into the family of God. You have been born physically; you need to be born spiritually--born again. Titus 3:5 supports this. I know of no commentary that supports your view.

Are you really this dense or are you merely playing games in the hope that no one will notice that you continue to dodge the questions which I asked you about what you said here:

You can dispense with the name-calling.
In chapter seven Paul is giving his testimony. He is describing in his Christian life the struggle between his old nature and new nature. This is very obvious, as he says: "I do the things I do not want to do, and I don't do the things I want to do." That is what the Christian life is like often--a struggle with the flesh.

So you are saying that when Paul broke the commandment then that sin caused the death of his new nature in Christ?:

Death is separation. Sin causes separation.
Psa.66:18 "If I regard iniquity in my heart the Lord will not hear me.
If you, as a Christian have sin in your heart you have separated yourself from God and he will not even listen to your prayers until that sin is confessed and you have made things right--until your fellowship is restored.

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me"

(Ro.7:9-11).

Exactly in what sense did Paul die when he broke the commandment?

I have explained this to you before. This is the beginning of his testimony, right after he gives an illustration of the only reason a married woman is allowed to remarry according to the law. The reason: her husband dies. It is an illustration. Believers are dead to the law. Paul spends seven verses giving this illustration. Then he begins by giving two or three verses which refer to his salvation, and the rest to his (and the Christian's) struggle with sin.

He was alive without the law once.
This does not point back to Adam, not to infancy, but rather to the time when he persecuted the people of God. He thought he was doing the will of God. He thought he was in the right place, right in the middle of the will of God.

(Php 3:6) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
(1Ti 1:13) Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

These verses explain how he was alive without the law once. When he was spiritually dead, he thought he was doing God's will. The law was his life. The law gave him reason for living. He was a Pharisee and kept the law strictly.

Then sin came and he died. The law convicted him of sin.
(Rom 7:10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Paul is referring to the OT

(Lev 18:5) Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
To the Jew the law was ordained to eternal life, even though it was impossible to keep. That is why they had to have The Day of Atonement.
Now he found the law to be unto death.
Now he met Christ and found salvation. The law pointed him in that direction.

 

[convicted1]

In all fairness to Brother Jerry, I will try to state what I think he is stating. If I am wrong Brother Jerry, please forgive me. I do not want to misrepresent you in any way, shape, form, or fashion.

When we are conceived in the womb, the physical body is what is conceived. God then breathes the soul into that little body in the mother's womb, causing it to be born in the spirit(not born again in the Spirit, but being born/created the first time). God is Spirit, you know? That is why we are not born spiritually dead, because our soul comes directly from God. When God imputes/accounts sin unto that person, they then die spiritually, and are in need of being born again. This is why Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again/born from above. Is this what you believe Brother Jerry? This is the way I have been led through study.

 

[Winman]

In all fairness to Brother Jerry, I will try to state what I think he is stating. If I am wrong Brother Jerry, please forgive me. I do not want to misrepresent you in any way, shape, form, or fashion.

When we are conceived in the womb, the physical body is what is conceived. God then breathes the soul into that little body in the mother's womb, causing it to be born in the spirit(not born again in the Spirit, but being born/created the first time). God is Spirit, you know? That is why we are not born spiritually dead, because our soul comes directly from God. When God imputes/accounts sin unto that person, they then die spiritually, and are in need of being born again. This is why Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again/born from above. Is this what you believe Brother Jerry? This is the way I have been led through study.

I agree with you Willis, we are born with the spirit (lower case) of man. We are not spiritually dead (separated) from God. Romans 9:11 shows newborns have committed no sin. God calls infants "my children" (Eze 16:21). When a child matures and knows to refuse the evil, and choose the good (Isa 7:16) but knowingly chooses to sin, then we die spiritually. When we trust Christ, we are washed clean of our sins and our spirit (lower case) is joined to the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 6:17). We become a new creature, we are born again, we are made alive "again" (Luk 15:24, 32), we are now born of the Spirit of God. Our spirit is a created spirit, the Holy Spirit is God's eternal Spirit that was not created, but has always existed.

You may disagree with me on some details here Willis, but this is what I believe.

 

[convicted1]

I agree with you Willis, we are born with the spirit (lower case) of man. We are not spiritually dead (separated) from God. Romans 9:11 shows newborns have committed no sin. God calls infants "my children" (Eze 16:21). When a child matures and knows to refuse the evil, and choose the good (Isa 7:16) but knowingly chooses to sin, then we die spiritually. When we trust Christ, we are washed clean of our sins and our spirit (lower case) is joined to the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 6:17). We become a new creature, we are born again, we are made alive "again" (Luk 15:24, 32), we are now born of the Spirit of God. Our spirit is a created spirit, the Holy Spirit is God's eternal Spirit that was not created, but has always existed.

You may disagree with me on some details here Willis, but this is what I believe.

Nope. If I understand you correctly, you are spot on. :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Now for further clarification, do you see man as two parts, or three? I see man as two, and when he/she is saved, they become three parts, with the Spirit being the Third part.

 

[Winman]

Nope. If I understand you correctly, you are spot on. :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Now for further clarification, do you see man as two parts, or three? I see man as two, and when he/she is saved, they become three parts, with the Spirit being the Third part.

I'll have to do a study on this Willis, I know there are different views. I discussed this with my pastor once, perhaps I'll get a chance to ask again tonight and get back to you.

I'm off to work!

 

[convicted1]

I'll have to do a study on this Willis, I know there are different views. I discussed this with my pastor once, perhaps I'll get a chance to ask again tonight and get back to you.

I'm off to work!

I am not dogmatic about my belief on this, Brother. But this is how I am leaning. I am dogmatic about us not being born sinners though.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

DHK,

Ealier I asked you for your interpretation of the following passage:

Exactly in what sense did Paul die when he broke the commandment?

To this you said:

He was alive without the law once.
This does not point back to Adam, not to infancy, but rather to the time when he persecuted the people of God. He thought he was doing the will of God. He thought he was in the right place, right in the middle of the will of God.

Nothing you say answers my question: Exactly in what sense did Paul die when he broke the commandment?

Again, the passage speaks of him dying in some sense:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

Perhaps what you said here is your pitiful attempt to answer my question:

Then sin came and he died. The law convicted him of sin.
(Rom 7:10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

In what sense did he die. We know there is a "physical" death and a "spiritual" death. But you evade the question which I asked:

Exactly in what sense did Paul die when he broke the commandment?

You are right. No person in the womb has ever been called born again by anyone but you.

I never said anyone in the womb has been called "born again." Here is what I said but you prove that you are incapable of understanding this simple thing:

When a person is born of the Spirit at conception in the womb that cannot be called being "born again." After a person sins and then believes the gospel then he is once again born of the Spirit and only then can it be said that he is "born again."

This is outlandish doctrine. There is only one "new birth" taught in the Bible, not two, three, four, etc.

What is "outlandish" is that you continue to say these things which you should know is untrue despite the fact that it has already been explained to you that no one is teaching more than one "born again" experience.

(Joh 3:5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(Joh 3:6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This has already been explained to you but obviously you do not know what the word 'repetiton" means. The word "regeneration" is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth. When a person who is dead in sin believes the gospel he is "regenerated" and "born of the Spirit." That birth is a repetition of another "birth of the Spirit."

You throw your reason to the wind and insist that being "born of the Spirit" when a person believes is a repetition of a birth in the womb!

You prove over and over that you will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

When we are conceived in the womb, the physical body is what is conceived. God then breathes the soul into that little body in the mother's womb, causing it to be born in the spirit(not born again in the Spirit, but being born/created the first time).

That is right. I thought I explained that well to DHK but for some reason he has problems understanding this simple thing. Here is what I told him:

When a person is born of the Spirit at conception in the womb that cannot be called being "born again." After a person sins and then believes the gospel then he is once again born of the Spirit and only then can it be said that he is "born again."

God is Spirit, you know? That is why we are not born spiritually dead, because our soul comes directly from God.

Right. We are made in the "likeness" of God:

"With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness" (Jas.3:9).

Those who hold to the false doctrine of Original Sin can somehow imagine that a man is born spiritually dead despite the fact that he is made in God's likeness!

When God imputes/accounts sin unto that person, they then die spiritually, and are in need of being born again. This is why Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again/born from above. Is this what you believe Brother Jerry? This is the way I have been led through study.

Yes, that is what I believe. Those who teach Original Sin must also deny that the Lord esus was made like His brothers in every way since that would mean that the Lord esus was also born dead in sin. So they just deny what is said here:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Ro.2:17).

 

[DHK]

That is right. I thought I explained that well to DHK but for some reason he has problems understanding this simple thing. Here is what I told him:

When a person is born of the Spirit at conception in the womb that cannot be called being "born again." After a person sins and then believes the gospel then he is once again born of the Spirit and only then can it be said that he is "born again."

This is heresy, and not is what Convicted believes, and not what Winman believes, as I understand them. You just said:
When a person is born of the Spirit at conception..., using a capital S, indicating the Holy Spirit. That does not happen. God gives a human spirit, not the Holy Spirit at conception. Man is not regenerated twice. He is not born again twice. That is not what Convicted nor Winman believe.

Right. We are made in the "likeness" of God:

"With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness" (Jas.3:9).

You can take that verse out of its context if you like but you still have to deal with Genesis 5:3 which states that we are born in the likeness of Adam. What do you do with that? Does the Bible contradict itself?

Those who hold to the false doctrine of Original Sin can somehow imagine that a man is born spiritually dead despite the fact that he is made in God's likeness!

You stand outside of historic orthodox Christianity and call the doctrine of the depravity of man a false doctrine. Besides you, who else agrees with you? Which major denominations? Perhaps some cults do? It is a false doctrine called Pelagianism which has been labeled and refuted by historic Christianity throughout the ages.

Yes, that is what I believe. Those who teach Original Sin must also deny that the Lord esus was made like His brothers in every way since that would mean that the Lord esus was also born dead in sin. So they just deny what is said here:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Ro.2:17).

You take that verse out of its context and take that meaning to an outrageous extreme.
Christ was also God.
If he was made exactly like his brethren, why aren't you divine? Why is he the only one divine?
Or why aren't you a Jew? He was a Jew? You aren't.
There are many things about Christ that greatly differ from you. Therefore he wasn't made "exactly" like his brethren. He didn't have a sin nature. He was born of a virgin. You were not. The purpose of the virgin birth was that he would avoid inheriting the sin nature.

You avoid the context of Hebrews chapter two, where the verse is found, not in Romans 2:17 that you referenced.

 

[DHK]

DHK,
I never said anyone in the womb has been called "born again." Here is what I said but you prove that you are incapable of understanding this simple thing:

This was my statement to you:
You are right. No person in the womb has ever been called born again by anyone but you.

You repeated it again in another post:

When a person is born of the Spirit at conception in the womb that cannot be called being "born again." After a person sins and then believes the gospel then he is once again born of the Spirit and only then can it be said that he is "born again."

"When a person is born of the Spirit at conception in the womb."
Don't deny what you said.
Being born of the Spirit is the same as being born again.

Jesus said it was:
(Joh 3:3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
(Joh 3:5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(Joh 3:7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Three times he says "You must be born again.
In verse five he says: "You must be born...of the Spirit. He is not referring to a physical birth, but a new birth in Christ, that time when a person is saved. Being born of the Spirit, regenerated by Christ, happens when a person puts their faith in Christ, at a time when it is impossible for an infant to do so.
What you teach is impossible and borderline heresy.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This is heresy, and not is what Convicted believes, and not what Winman believes, as I understand them. You just said:
When a person is born of the Spirit at conception..., using a capital S, indicating the Holy Spirit. That does not happen.

Here is how Paul said that he was '"regenerated":

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

If a person is "renewed by the Holy Spirit" that means that previously the Holy Spirit acted on that person. As I have already demonstrated the word "regeneration" meand the "repetition" of a birth. You obviously do not know what the word "repetition" means. It means "the act or an instance of repeating or being repeated" (Merriam-Webster.com).

Since being regenerated by the Holy Spirit of Titus 3:5 is an action that is being repeated then common sense dictates that the initial action that is being repeated is also one which is by the Holy Spirit.

Evidently you do not have a clue as to the meaning of the word "repeat." Instead of earnestly seeking the truth you ignore these simple things and continue to misrepresent what I said.

Man is not regenerated twice. He is not born again twice.

I have never said that and I have denied more than once that I have ever said that.

He was alive without the law once.
This does not point back to Adam, not to infancy, but rather to the time when he persecuted the people of God. He thought he was doing the will of God. He thought he was in the right place, right in the middle of the will of God.

Nothing you say answers my question: Exactly in what sense did Paul die when he broke the commandment?

Again, the passage speaks of him dying in some sense:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

Perhaps what you said here is your pitiful attempt to answer my question:

Then sin came and he died. The law convicted him of sin.
(Rom 7:10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

In what sense did he die. We know there is a "physical" death and a "spiritual" death. But you evade the question which I asked:

Exactly in what sense did Paul die when he broke the commandment?

 

[DHK]

Here is how Paul said that he was '"regenerated":

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

If a person is "renewed by the Holy Spirit" that means that previously the Holy Spirit acted on that person. As I have already demonstrated the word "regeneration" meand the "repetition" of a birth. You obviously do not know what the word "repetition" means. It means "the act or an instance of repeating or being repeated" (Merriam-Webster.com).

You are basing your theology on an obscure definition from an English dictionary when the NT was written in Greek. No wonder you are confused. You have no idea what regeneration is, do you?
Regeneration is seen in the world in many different instances (outside of the spiritual realm).
A doctor doing surgery, can cut more than 25% of the liver off, and the liver will "regenerate" itself. It will grow back that which was cut off.
You lose skin every day. Your skin regenerates itself.
If you were to take an earth worm and cut in half, the worm having the head would regenerate its missing half.
When a forest fire tears through a large plot of land destroying all the vegetation, the land will "regenerate" itself.

In application:
(Joh 12:24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
--Jesus was speaking here of regeneration.

Paul said:
(Eph 2:1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--We are already dead. We are born that way. The Holy Spirit needs to make us alive. That is what regeneration is all about. It means "to make alive." Look at the examples I have given to you. When the Holy Spirit makes the human spirit alive, that is regeneration. It happens at the same time that salvation does. It is the new birth that Jesus describes in John 3. It is that same event that is described in Titus 3:5. They don't contradict each other; they compliment each other.

Since being regenerated by the Holy Spirit of Titus 3:5 is an action that is being repeated then common sense dictates that the initial action that is being repeated is also one which is by the Holy Spirit.

That is false. It is not an action that is repeated. You can't base your theology on an English dictionary.

Evidently you do not have a clue as to the meaning of the word "repeat." Instead of earnestly seeking the truth you ignore these simple things and continue to misrepresent what I said.

What matters is what the Bible says; not what you said.

I have never said that and I have denied more than once that I have ever said that.

Yes you have. I have already quoted you twice.

Nothing you say answers my question: Exactly in what sense did Paul die when he broke the commandment?

He was convicted of the Holy Spirit of God. In his heart he died.

(Act 2:37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

(Act 22:6) And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
(Act 22:7) And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Again, the passage speaks of him dying in some sense:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

Perhaps what you said here is your pitiful attempt to answer my question:

In what sense did he die. We know there is a "physical" death and a "spiritual" death. But you evade the question which I asked:

Exactly in what sense did Paul die when he broke the commandment?

He was alive (thinking to be doing God's will as an unsaved Pharisee) at one time.
Then he met Christ. The Law that he thought was life, now became death. It pointed to his sin. The wages of sin is death. It convicted him of his sin. Life was now in Jesus Christ whom he submitted to, by calling Him, Lord. He had been breaking the Ten Commandments all the time he was persecuting Christians (Thou shalt not kill); now he realizes he was breaking the law not keeping it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Law that he thought was life, now became death.

Why must you PERVERT every single verse that contradicts your discredited theories?

Paul is not speaking of a life which he only "thought" that he had:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

You show over and over that you have no respect for what the Scriptures ACTUALLY say and you are not happy until you can twist them until they no longer resemble what is originally said.

You are basing your theology on an obscure definition from an English dictionary when the NT was written in Greek.

So you really think that there was actually an English dictionary at the time the New Testament was written in Greek?

You just make up things because you have no actual proof that what I say is in error. You must not be aware that the English language did not even come into being until four hundred years after the New Testament was written in Greek.

Regeneration is seen in the world in many different instances (outside of the spiritual realm).

Let us look once again about the meaning of regeneration in the Spiritual sense. In the following verse the Apostle Paul describes how he was saved:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth." These definitions from Joseph Henry Thayer are from the year 1901 and the meaning of "reprtition" was the same then as it is now.

but since the definition of 'repetition" completely destroys your argument you just invent a fairy tale in the hope that others will buy into it. Here it is again:

You are basing your theology on an obscure definition from an English dictionary when the NT was written in Greek.

You cannot answer my points in an intelligent way so you just make up stories just like a child. Here is what you refuse to believe about the term "repetition of a birth" and the "renewal of the Holy Spirit":

If a person is "renewed by the Holy Spirit" that means that previously the Holy Spirit acted on that person. As I have already demonstrated the word "regeneration" means the "repetition" of a birth. You obviously do not know what the word "repetition" means. It means "the act or an instance of repeating or being repeated" (Merriam-Webster.com).

Since being regenerated by the Holy Spirit of Titus 3:5 is an action that is being repeated then common sense dictates that the initial action that is being repeated is also one which is by the Holy Spirit.

Since this truths completely repudiate your idea you just make up something that makes no sense in the hope that others will actually believe that nonsense!

 

[DHK]

Why must you PERVERT every single verse that contradicts your discredited theories?

I don't pervert verses. I do show how they contradict what you believe, which is frustrating you. Isn't that right?

Paul is not speaking of a life which he only "thought" that he had:

Paul did had a life. He had a life as a Pharisee. He was a Pharisee of the Pharisees. He was on the road to Damascus:

(Act 9:1) But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest
(Act 9:2) and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. (ESV)
--This was his life. He believed he was doing the will of God. He was acting on behalf of the High Priest.

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me"

(Ro.7:9-11).

You show over and over that you have no respect for what the Scriptures ACTUALLY say and you are not happy until you can twist them until they no longer resemble what is originally said.

I can show you over and over again what they actually mean, but you will again and again give them an unbilblical Pelagian interpretation.

So you really think that there was actually an English dictionary at the time the New Testament was written in Greek?

Do you have a problem with English? With Comprehension skills??
I said:

You are basing your theology on an obscure definition from an English dictionary when the NT was written in Greek.
Let me state it again:
You are basing your theology on an obscure definition from an English dictionary, when the NT was written in Greek.
or,
You are basing your theology on an obscure definition from an English dictionary, BUT the NT was written in Greek.
--All three sentences mean the same thing. Again, let me reiterate: You are basing your theology on a modern English dictionary, but the NT was written in GREEK!! Comprenez Vous??

You just make up things because you have no actual proof that what I say is in error. You must not be aware that the English language did not even come into being until four hundred years after the New Testament was written in Greek.

Please don't dwell on your lack of English skills. I know when English came into existence. I have given you evidence; you don't accept it. And I don't make things up. You are in a state of denial. Why don't you refute what I say instead of calling me names.

Let us look once again about the meaning of regeneration in the Spiritual sense. In the following verse the Apostle Paul describes how he was saved:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth." These definitions from Joseph Henry Thayer are from the year 1901 and the meaning of "reprtition" was the same then as it is now.

This is not good hermeneutics, and what you say is false.

Regeneration according to Thayer:

1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
1a) hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death

That is a lot different than what you have posted, isn't it? Are you being deceitful on purpose?

Renewing according to Thayer:

1) a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better

--This is the work that the Holy Spirit does. He completes the change for the better.
Your entire definition is simply based on your imagination and philosophy. There is not an ounce of Biblical soundness to it.

but since the definition of 'repetition" completely destroys your argument you just invent a fairy tale in the hope that others will buy into it. Here it is again:

You just repeated your ignorance of the English language. You really should stop doing that. Theology is not based on Webster's dictionary. It is based on the Word of God that was originally written in Greek. I am sorry you can't understand such a simple statement.

You cannot answer my points in an intelligent way so you just make up stories just like a child. Here is what you refuse to believe about the term "repetition of a birth" and the "renewal of the Holy Spirit":

A new birth is not a repetition of a birth. You are very confused.

If a person is "renewed by the Holy Spirit" that means that previously the Holy Spirit acted on that person.

More confusion.

As I have already demonstrated the word "regeneration" means the "repetition" of a birth. You obviously do not know what the word "repetition" means. It means "the act or an instance of repeating or being repeated" (Merriam-Webster.com).

You didn't demonstrate anything but foolish error. Regeneration is new life. Jesus demonstrated regeneration when he said:

(Joh 12:24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
--That is an example of regeneration. Will you believe the words of Jesus?
I don't think so.

Since being regenerated by the Holy Spirit of Titus 3:5 is an action that is being repeated then common sense dictates that the initial action that is being repeated is also one which is by the Holy Spirit.

There is nothing there that is being repeated. You have convinced yourself of a false teaching.

Since this truths completely repudiate your idea you just make up something that makes no sense in the hope that others will actually believe that nonsense!

You haven't repudiated anything.

 

[convicted1]

Remember something Brother DHK, that which is born of Spirit, is spirit. God breathes our soul into us, and this is where life stems from. Life isn't in our fleshly frame, that only comes through conception, the union of sperm-egg. It is lifeless until God breathes the soul into that body.


When our soul comes from God, it is alive unto Him. How could something come from Him in an already condemned state? Sin is what brings condemnation. Condemnation brings forth seperation from God. Seperation from God=spiritual death. That is why I believe we are born alive, and when God imputes/accounts sin unto us, we then die(seperated from Him), and are in need of being restored, redeemed, etc. How can you buy back something if it wasn't yours to begin with? How can you be restored if you haven't been there to start with? Jesus bought us back(redeemed) with His precious blood. :jesus::godisgood::thumbsup::thumbsup: