Born in Sins part2

[Jerry Shugart]

Regeneration according to Thayer:
1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
1a) hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death

Thanks because this proves my point.

The word "renovation" means "to restore to its former state" (The American College Dictionary).

So when a person is regenerated and renewed by the Holy Spirit the former state must be one of the Holy Spirit.

The word "restorartion" means "a bringing back to a former condition" (Ibid.).

So when a person is restored by the Holy Spirit the former condition must be one of the Holy Spirit.

That means NOTHING to you because it does not match your discredited ideas.

You are basing your theology on an obscure definition from an English dictionary, BUT the NT was written in Greek.

Are you being deceitful on purpose? You KNOW that I based my argument on the meaning of the Greek word translated "regeneration" in the following verse:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

Here is your pitiful response to this:

This is not good hermeneutics, and what you say is false.

You make that assertion and then you give nothing at all to support what you say.

You didn't demonstrate anything but foolish error. Regeneration is new life. Jesus demonstrated regeneration when he said:

(Joh 12:24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
--That is an example of regeneration. Will you believe the words of Jesus?

The Greek word translated "regeneration" does not even appear in that verse.

Again, you just make things up when you have no answers.

 

[DHK]

Remember something Brother DHK, that which is born of Spirit, is spirit. God breathes our soul into us, and this is where life stems from. Life isn't in our fleshly frame, that only comes through conception, the union of sperm-egg. It is lifeless until God breathes the soul into that body.


When our soul comes from God, it is alive unto Him. How could something come from Him in an already condemned state? Sin is what brings condemnation. Condemnation brings forth seperation from God. Seperation from God=spiritual death. That is why I believe we are born alive, and when God imputes/accounts sin unto us, we then die(seperated from Him), and are in need of being restored, redeemed, etc. How can you buy back something if it wasn't yours to begin with? How can you be restored if you haven't been there to start with? Jesus bought us back(redeemed) with His precious blood. :jesus::godisgood::thumbsup::thumbsup:

If I understood your position correctly, as per previous discussions, you believed a person was born in a state of innocence. But you never mentioned that he was born with "spiritual life." That sounds absurd. To have spiritual life infers that one can communicate spiritually. God has given us life, that is true. Whether that life is depraved or innocent was the discussion, not whether it was spiritual or not. How can it be made spiritually alive at birth. Certainly God breathes into every man a soul. That is life. But it is not spiritual life in the sense of being born again. Born again uses the term "born of the Spirit, the exact phrase that Jerry used with a capital S, indicating born of the Holy Spirit in conception, in the womb. Are you sure you believe that?

 

[DHK]

Thanks because this proves my point.

The word "renovation" means "to restore to its former state" (The American College Dictionary).

So when a person is regenerated and renewed by the Holy Spirit the former state must be one of the Holy Spirit.

Again, you pick out the word most suitable for your twisted theology.
The word means "to give new life, as I have demonstrated again and again.

The word "restorartion" means "a bringing back to a former condition" (Ibid.).

Not in this verse.

So when a person is restored by the Holy Spirit the former condition must be one of the Holy Spirit.

That means NOTHING to you because it does not match your discredited ideas.

It is not my ideas that are discredited. You have started with a false premise, and thus end with a false conclusion.

Are you being deceitful on purpose? You KNOW that I based my argument on the meaning of the Greek word translated "regeneration" in the following verse:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

I also gave you Thayer's definition. Why did you not accept it? Why was it so different than the one you gave? It seems that you are not so accurate as you pretend to be.

Here is your pitiful response to this:

You make that assertion and then you give nothing at all to support what you say.

The Greek word translated "regeneration" does not even appear in that verse.

Again, you just make things up when you have no answers.

I quote Scripture and you ignore it.
Jesus gave an example of regeneration. Don't you believe the words of Jesus. That indeed is pitiful. I gave you all kinds of examples of regeneration from nature. You just went your own merry way ignoring them all. That proves to me you don't know what regeneration is. It is "new life," specifically "new life in Christ," and that is what Christ was teaching by way of parable. But you don't accept the teaching of Christ.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The word means "to give new life, as I have demonstrated again and again.

I have used the Greek word translated "regeneration" to back up what I say, that the word means a "repetition of a birth."

And you have provided nothing at all which demonstrates that that meaning is not correct.

I also gave you Thayer's definition. Why did you not accept it?

I gave you the meaning of two of the words which he gave to define the Greek word translated "regeneration" and you just ignored them. Here they are again so you can ignore them again:

The word "renovation" means "to restore to its former state" (The American College Dictionary).

So when a person is regenerated and renewed by the Holy Spirit the former state must be one of the Holy Spirit.

The word "restorartion" means "a bringing back to a former condition" (Ibid.).

So when a person is restored by the Holy Spirit the former condition must be one of the Holy Spirit.

I quote Scripture and you ignore it.
Jesus gave an example of regeneration.

You misrtepresent His words just like you do mine. You know very well that the Lord Jesus did not use the Greek word translated "regeneration" in the verse which you quoted.

Next, I asked you:

Exactly in what sense did Paul die when he broke the commandment?

Here is your answer:

He was alive (thinking to be doing God's will as an unsaved Pharisee) at one time.

So it was his "thinking" which died?

Again, Paul said that he died. Nothing he said even hints that he was speaking about his "thoughts" dying.

Then he met Christ. The Law that he thought was life, now became death. It pointed to his sin. The wages of sin is death.

Yes, the wages of sin is death and the death spoken of there is not in regard to a "thought" dying!

In the verses we are dicussing Paul says that it was breaking the law which resulted in his death. Here Paul speaks of exactly that same thing:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away" (2 Cor.3:6-7).

Here the Apostle Paul is contrasting the New Testament with the Ten Commandments (written and engraved in stones). In regard to the New Testament he says that "the spirit giveth life" so this is obviously referring to "spiritual life."

We are told to compare "spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Cor.2:13) so in order to maintain a logical consistency in regard to Paul's discourse we must understand that the "ministration of death" refers to "spiritual" death.

If we are to believe your ridiculous ideas we must stand reason on its head and delude our minds into believing that Paul is saying that the Law kills nothing but our "thoughts"!

 

[DHK]

I have used the Greek word translated "regeneration" to back up what I say, that the word means a "repetition of a birth."

That is not what regeneration means. It is not a repetition of anything. A person can only be saved (regenerated) once: not again and again and again. Don't you believe in the eternal security of the believer?

And you have provided nothing at all which demonstrates that that meaning is not correct.

The evidence I give you, you ignore.

I gave you the meaning of two of the words which he gave to define the Greek word translated "regeneration" and you just ignored them. Here they are again so you can ignore them again:

Meanings do not come from the derivation of the word. If the did, then you should be worshiping the sun on "Sun-day" and worshiping the god of "Thor" on "Thurs-day," etc. Just because the word is derived from those words does not mean that the word has that meaning. That is part of your mistake.

The word "renovation" means "to restore to its former state" (The American College Dictionary).

And this proves what?
I am renovating my house right now. It will not be regenerated; it will be renovated. There is a big difference. Regenerated means "to be given new life." The house doesn't have life. Regeneration always applies to life.

So when a person is regenerated and renewed by the Holy Spirit the former state must be one of the Holy Spirit.

No, the former state simply has to be "dead", as it says in Eph.2:1. The dead is given new life. That is regeneration. That is what Jesus demonstrated in John 12:24. That is how the word is used in biology. Your skin regenerates itself every day. You shed dead skin cells. It regenerates new skin cells.

The word "restorartion" means "a bringing back to a former condition" (Ibid.).

This is what the liberal believes--reformation. They are saved by works; restoration or reformation. Do you believe in a salvation by works? You must restore the old things?

So when a person is restored by the Holy Spirit the former condition must be one of the Holy Spirit.

The former condition is death. (Eph.2:1)

You misrtepresent His words just like you do mine. You know very well that the Lord Jesus did not use the Greek word translated "regeneration" in the verse which you quoted.

Christ was giving an illustration about regeneration and you don't believe Him; you ought to be ashamed.

Next, I asked you:
Exactly in what sense did Paul die when he broke the commandment?

So it was his "thinking" which died?

Again, Paul said that he died. Nothing he said even hints that he was speaking about his "thoughts" dying.

I never said he did.
I said he was convicted of the Holy Spirit. He realized that he was breaking the law instead of keeping the law, which he believed he was doing.

Yes, the wages of sin is death and the death spoken of there is not in regard to a "thought" dying!

In the verses we are dicussing Paul says that it was breaking the law which resulted in his death. Here Paul speaks of exactly that same thing:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away" (2 Cor.3:6-7).

Here the Apostle Paul is contrasting the New Testament with the Ten Commandments (written and engraved in stones). In regard to the New Testament he says that "the spirit giveth life" so this is obviously referring to "spiritual life."

Yes, the Spirit gives life. What does it give life to? It gives life to someone who is dead. Man is dead in their sins before they can be born again. This is very simple soteriology.

We are told to compare "spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Cor.2:13) so in order to maintain a logical consistency in regard to Paul's discourse we must understand that the "ministration of death" refers to "spiritual" death.

If we are to believe your ridiculous ideas we must stand reason on its head and delude our minds into believing that Paul is saying that the Law kills nothing but our "thoughts"!

I never said that.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That is not what regeneration means. It is not a repetition of anything. A person can only be saved (regenerated) once: not again and again and again.

The first time a person is "generated." It is not until the next time that it can be said that he is "REgenerated."

All I ever hear from you on this thread is wothless rhetoric. I have no time for someone who cannot distinguish between "generation" and "REgeneration." You need to go back to junior high school and learn English.

 

[DHK]

The first time a person is "generated." It is not until the next time that it can be said that he is "REgenerated."

All I ever hear from you on this thread is wothless rhetoric. I have no time for someone who cannot distinguish between "generation" and "REgeneration." You need to go back to junior high school and learn English.

You were born once physically; now you must be born a second time, but this time spiritually. That is what Jesus taught Nicodemus. You must be born again.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; that which is born of the spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I say again unto you, You must be born again.

There are two types of birth: physical and spiritual.
Jesus was begotten of Mary, but he was never regenerated.

We are all "begotten" by....
But not everyone is born a second time or regenerated.

 

[convicted1]

If I understood your position correctly, as per previous discussions, you believed a person was born in a state of innocence. But you never mentioned that he was born with "spiritual life." That sounds absurd. To have spiritual life infers that one can communicate spiritually. God has given us life, that is true. Whether that life is depraved or innocent was the discussion, not whether it was spiritual or not. How can it be made spiritually alive at birth. Certainly God breathes into every man a soul. That is life. But it is not spiritual life in the sense of being born again. Born again uses the term "born of the Spirit, the exact phrase that Jerry used with a capital S, indicating born of the Holy Spirit in conception, in the womb. Are you sure you believe that?

Born in a state of innonence, no. State of not guilty, yes. Here's how I have come to understand this. A three year old could theorhetically kill someone by squeezing the trigger of a loaded pistol. Now, did that three year old kill someone? Absolutely. Would that 3 y/o be found guilty in a court of law, and sent to prison to serve with others who have killed, raped, stolen, and anyother ne'er do well? Nope. Why? Because that child did not have the true understanding of what it did.

It is when someone knows to do good, and doeth it not, to him is sin.

 

[convicted1]

If I understood your position correctly, as per previous discussions, you believed a person was born in a state of innocence. But you never mentioned that he was born with "spiritual life." That sounds absurd. To have spiritual life infers that one can communicate spiritually. God has given us life, that is true. Whether that life is depraved or innocent was the discussion, not whether it was spiritual or not. How can it be made spiritually alive at birth. Certainly God breathes into every man a soul. That is life. But it is not spiritual life in the sense of being born again. Born again uses the term "born of the Spirit, the exact phrase that Jerry used with a capital S, indicating born of the Holy Spirit in conception, in the womb. Are you sure you believe that?

Another thing Brother. Sin is what brings condemnation, correct? With condemnation, it brings about seperation, correct? Seperation=spiritual death, correct? So, all this had to take place before a new born baby is ever born. What sins did the baby commit in the mother's womb to be brought forth spiritually dead? If that baby's life comes from God(which it does), then if it is spiritually dead, even in the womb, then where did sin come from? See what I am driving at? The doctrine of Original Sin places sin squarely in God's lap, and not man.

When a baby is born, it is born in a state of "not guilty". In this state, it is under God's Grace, which also has the blood. When God imputes/accounts sin unto that individual, then God's Grace is removed from that person. Then, and only then does condemnation and seperation take place. It is then, that they need to be redeemed and restored.

 

[DHK]

Another thing Brother. Sin is what brings condemnation, correct? With condemnation, it brings about seperation, correct? Seperation=spiritual death, correct? So, all this had to take place before a new born baby is ever born. What sins did the baby commit in the mother's womb to be brought forth spiritually dead? If that baby's life comes from God(which it does), then if it is spiritually dead, even in the womb, then where did sin come from? See what I am driving at? The doctrine of Original Sin places sin squarely in God's lap, and not man.

When a baby is born, it is born in a state of "not guilty". In this state, it is under God's Grace, which also has the blood. When God imputes/accounts sin unto that individual, then God's Grace is removed from that person. Then, and only then does condemnation and seperation take place. It is then, that they need to be redeemed and restored.

Though I disagree with your view, even considering that point of view, it still does not give the infant "spiritual life." It only gives the infant a state of innocence.

(Act 17:28) For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

(Act 17:29) Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Though we do not belong in God's family until we are born again, there is a general sense that we are all the offspring of God.

Yet still an infant cannot be considered to have "spiritual life," not even in your view, if I understand you correctly.

 

[The Biblicist]

So, all this had to take place before a new born baby is ever born. What sins did the baby commit in the mother's womb to be brought forth spiritually dead? If that baby's life comes from God(which it does), then if it is spiritually dead, even in the womb, then where did sin come from? See what I am driving at? The doctrine of Original Sin places sin squarely in God's lap, and not man.

You are confusing PHYSICAL with SPIRITUAL life! God simply gives PHYSCIAL life at birth but the SPIRITUAL life of the infant is passed down from Adam.

If God gave the baby SPIRITUAL life at birth then we would have a DEPRAVED God because the manifest nature of the infant is not the fruit of the spirit but the fruits of the flesh.

If God gave the baby SPIRITUAL life at birth then it would not be subject to death which is the product of SPIRITUAL death which in turn is the consequence of sin.

When a baby is born, it is born in a state of "not guilty".

Not guilty means NOT CONDEMNED and yet PHYSICAL DEATH is condemnation directly due to spiritual death which in turn is the direct consequence of sin. Since infants die, your theory simply evaporates.

 

[convicted1]

You are confusing PHYSICAL with SPIRITUAL life! God simply gives PHYSCIAL life at birth but the SPIRITUAL life of the infant is passed down from Adam.

Look, our physical life revolves around the fact that there is a soul inside our physical body. Take the soul out, and the physical goes dormant, and begins to decay back to the dust. Our soul is what keeps our outer man alive. When God formed Adam, until He breathed the soul into him, he was dead/dormant. Even when sins causes spiritual death(seperation from God), the soul is still alive/functioning. The rich man in hell had all his faculties, and all his senses. He could taste, talk, hear, touch, etc., and he was dead in sin(separated from God).

If God gave the baby SPIRITUAL life at birth then we would have a DEPRAVED God because the manifest nature of the infant is not the fruit of the spirit but the fruits of the flesh.

Blessed is the man who God will not impute sin. A baby is born under God's grace, seeing that it doesn't have the knowledge to know it's right hand from it's left. It is when they know to do good, and in turn, do not do it, then it is sin to them. At that moment, God accounts/imputes sin unto them, and they are in need of being REstored and REdeemed. You can't buy back something that wasn't yours to start with.

If God gave the baby SPIRITUAL life at birth then it would not be subject to death which is the product of SPIRITUAL death which in turn is the consequence of sin.

Nope, wrong again. "In Adam" is our fleshly body. That is why death is passed down, and not sin. Because of Adam's sin, we will all taste the physical death. Only those who die in their sins, will taste eteranl death.

Not guilty means NOT CONDEMNED and yet PHYSICAL DEATH is condemnation directly due to spiritual death which in turn is the direct consequence of sin. Since infants die, your theory simply evaporates.

Nope, but it makes it stand that much stronger. Spiritual death(seperation from God) is condemnation because of sin. Physical death was the result of Adam's sin. Babies aren't born condemned. What sin did they willingly and knowingly commit to place them under condemnation? If they are conceived in the womb a sinner, then that places God as the Author of sin. Are you willing to admit that the doctrine Original Sin does this?

 

[The Biblicist]

:Even when sins causes spiritual death(seperation from God), the soul is still alive/functioning. The rich man in hell had all his faculties, and all his senses. He could taste, talk, hear, touch, etc., and he was dead in sin(separated from God).

Yes, Physical and soulish life is distinct from spiritual life. You can be spiritually dead and yet be in full possession of physical and soulish life. At birth God provided the physical and soulish life but the baby was born spiritually dead due to "by one man's offence many BE DEAD."

I am a trichotomist and therefore, spiritual death has its seat in the spirit of man and what is born of Spirit is spirit. Neither the body or the soul of man is born of the Spirit. Moses uses the PLURAL "breath of LIVES" rather than the singular in describing the creation of man by God. There is spiritual life - spirit; - There is self-conscious life - soul and there is physical life - body. Man functions on three levels (1) other world consciousness - spirit; (2) self-consciousness - soul; (3) outer world consciousness - body (Heb. 4:12; 1 Thes. 5:23).

:Blessed is the man who God will not impute sin. A baby is born under God's grace, seeing that it doesn't have the knowledge to know it's right hand from it's left. It is when they know to do good, and in turn, do not do it, then it is sin to them. At that moment, God accounts/imputes sin unto them, and they are in need of being REstored and REdeemed. You can't buy back something that wasn't yours to start with.

What scripture do you have to support this? None! Lack of knowledge of right and wrong does not mean they are not spiritually dead, it only means they cannot be held accountable for their own personal sinful actions. However, their death proves they are spiritually dead due to the sin of Adam and thus subject to physical death. The salvation of dying infants rests upon Christ removing the singular "sin of the world" (Jn. 1;29) rather than all infants being born without a sin nature or under grace.

:Nope, wrong again. "In Adam" is our fleshly body. That is why death is passed down, and not sin. Because of Adam's sin, we will all taste the physical death. Only those who die in their sins, will taste eteranl death.

It is the SIN NATURE that is passed down and that is why DEATH justifiably occurs in infants.= "by one man's offence many BE DEAD." Romans 5:12 says "death BY SIN"! Both the term "death" and "dead" in Romans 5:12,15 refer to SPIRITUAL DEATH and it is SPIRITUAL DEATH that is passed down due to "one man's offence many BE DEAD" spiritually.

:Nope, but it makes it stand that much stronger. Spiritual death(seperation from God) is condemnation because of sin.

"by ONE MAN'S OFFENCE many BE DEAD" - Rom. 5:15

Spiritual death is condemnation because of "ONE MAN'S SIN"! The text does not say "by MANY men's offences many be dead" but that is exactly what your position demands it should read!

: If they are conceived in the womb a sinner, then that places God as the Author of sin. Are you willing to admit that the doctrine Original Sin does this?

That is purely presumption on your part and a false one! God simply provides PHYSICAL LIFE but man is reproduced after his own kind. The Bible repeatedly and clearly teaches that all men are born sinners by nature (Job. 14;1,5; 15:14; 28:3; Psa. 58:3; etc.)

Isa 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes, Physical and soulish life is distinct from spiritual life. You can be spiritually dead and yet be in full possession of physical and soulish life. At birth God provided the physical and soulish life but the baby was born spiritually dead due to "by one man's offence many BE DEAD."

I am a trichotomist and therefore, spiritual death has its seat in the spirit of man and what is born of Spirit is spirit. Neither the body or the soul of man is born of the Spirit. Moses uses the PLURAL "breath of LIVES" rather than the singular in describing the creation of man by God. There is spiritual life - spirit; - There is self-conscious life - soul and there is physical life - body. Man functions on three levels (1) other world consciousness - spirit; (2) self-consciousness - soul; (3) outer world consciousness - body (Heb. 4:12; 1 Thes. 5:23).





What scripture do you have to support this? None! Lack of knowledge of right and wrong does not mean they are not spiritually dead, it only means they cannot be held accountable for their own personal sinful actions. However, their death proves they are spiritually dead due to the sin of Adam and thus subject to physical death. The salvation of dying infants rests upon Christ removing the singular "sin of the world" (Jn. 1;29) rather than all infants being born without a sin nature or under grace.





It is the SIN NATURE that is passed down and that is why DEATH justifiably occurs in infants.= "by one man's offence many BE DEAD." Romans 5:12 says "death BY SIN"! Both the term "death" and "dead" in Romans 5:12,15 refer to SPIRITUAL DEATH and it is SPIRITUAL DEATH that is passed down due to "one man's offence many BE DEAD" spiritually.








"by ONE MAN'S OFFENCE many BE DEAD" - Rom. 5:15

Spiritual death is condemnation because of "ONE MAN'S SIN"! The text does not say "by MANY men's offences many be dead" but that is exactly what your position demands it should read!




That is purely presumption on your part and a false one! God simply provides PHYSICAL LIFE but man is reproduced after his own kind. The Bible repeatedly and clearly teaches that all men are born sinners by nature (Job. 14;1,5; 15:14; 28:3; Psa. 58:3; etc.)

Isa 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

Isa 46:3 Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:

Isa 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.


God gives physical life to all men at conception. If an infant survives childhood it is becuase of God's mercy. If he survives to middle age it is because of God's mercy. If he survives to old age it is becuase of God's mercy. He is their God from the womb till they die whether they recognize Him as such or not. He sustains their life till death and provides all that they have whether they are thankful or not!

However, it is a misapplication of scripture to take texts that simply convey the above truths and demand that such texts must mean they are born sinless or without a sin nature. If that were true then they would never have a sin nature because God is still their God in middle age and old age till death as he alone sustaints their physical life until death and provides everything good they have whether they recognize Him as such or not!

He is their God from the womb and will be until their death but that does not mean they recognize him as such from the womb unto their death in old age.