Can A Christian refuse believers baptism And not be Sinning?

[MB]

This is a good quote.

However, it was not a command by Peter.

The people asked, and he gave instruction in the process what they were to follow. Look at the following three verses 39-41:

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

I disagree because of two very specific reasons. We are comanded to repent and be Baptized at least by Peter. It is a command because repentance is necessary for Salvation. And Baptism is necessary for the indwelling of the Spirit. I might add that I believe the Bible and therefore have reasoned that with out Being baptized one doesn't have the indwelling of the Spirit. Simply because there are several places where men are saved with out the Spirit for instance before pentecost no one had the Holy Spirit and after that they received by the laying on of hands by one who was already indwelt. Such as Peter did for others to receive.

In Baptisim as I believe it to be a complete dunking under the water. The one who is baptizing places His hand on men and baptizes them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Before the atonement was paid by Christ men were only Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. They could not have the indwelling until pentecost.

Baptism is very important for many reasons. The most important in my opinion is to be baptized in all the members of the God head. The proclaiming of Christ is or should be done before the baptism. I believe with out the public anouncment of believing in Christ no one is saved. Baptism doesn't save it self but it is the will of God. If it is the will of God (and it is). Then do we dare, to not be baptized?
MB

 

[OldRegular]

True but it requires repentance to come to faith and the evidence of salvation is if the person is keeping the commandments (1 John 2:4) and Baptism is the first command after salvation. If that is refused then there is no reason to believe the person is saved.

So the thief on the cross was not saved?

 

[freeatlast]

So the theif on the cross was not saved?

Well if you want to believe that then that is up to you.

 

[OldRegular]

And Baptism is necessary for the indwelling of the Spirit.
MB

Could you please provide Scripture supporting the above assertion?

 

[OldRegular]

True but it requires repentance to come to faith and the evidence of salvation is if the person is keeping the commandments (1 John 2:4) and Baptism is the first command after salvation. If that is refused then there is no reason to believe the person is saved.

Question by OldRegular
So the thief on the cross was not saved?

Answer by freeatlast
Well if you want to believe that then that is up to you.

So your assertion that baptism is necessary is not correct?

 

[freeatlast]

So your assertion that baptism is necessary is not correct?

You and agedman must be eating from the same feed bag. The thief on the cross was not refusing baptism.

 

[agedman]

No you have not shown anything that is accurate.

All you have done is make statements that are not true.

Yes, you did. No, I didn't. No, I did. Yes, you didn't. Shows no support for your statement(s).

Were I posted what YOU said, you can only state a generalization that I all I posted was inaccurate. (Is that not what you mean by "shown anything...")

Actually matt and Acts do state it in a command. The Greek is in a command form.

You have assumed that Baptism is a command and want to approach all Scriptures from that view.

I have already posted that if one were to take the Greek in these areas as command, then the person would be inconsistent when applying the same standard to other scriptures such as those dealing with "women being silent," "Women being covered", ... as I already posted. Could it be that your approach to 1 John provides an inaccurate view toward baptism, too?

Baptism is a command. Any person refusing Baptism shows they probably were not saved.Baptism is not a church ordinance.

Baptists hold that baptism is a church ordinance, to be administered by the authorized representative of the local body.

You don't argue with me on that point but upon the whole of historical Baptist faith and practice in the matter.

Baptism as a result of conversion is one of the holdings that distinguish Baptists from other denominational groupings.

it is a believers testimony from obedience.

Certainly a believer would show "obedience in baptism" - another well used Baptist term.

However, Disobedience does not a disqualification from (or of) salvation make.

 

[MB]

Could you please provide Scripture supporting the above assertion?

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
MB

 

[freeatlast]

Certainly a believer would show "obedience in baptism" - another well used Baptist term.

However, Disobedience does not a disqualification from (or of) salvation make.

Obediance to what? How can we be obediant to somehting that is not a command according to you?

 

[OldRegular]

Certainly a believer would show "obedience in baptism" - another well used Baptist term.

However, Disobedience does not a disqualification from (or of) salvation make.

I agree! x10

 

[freeatlast]

I agree! x10

That just means you are X10 wrong. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[OldRegular]

That just means you are X10 wrong. :smilewinkgrin:

You err again, not knowing Scripture! or posting requirements!

 

[freeatlast]

You err again, not knowing Scripture! or posting requirements!

I have given scripure, but like many today you ignor it.

 

[agedman]

I disagree because of two very specific reasons. We are comanded to repent and be Baptized at least by Peter.

As I have posted the words by Peter do not constitute a command. Peter was exhorting, testifying. When the people asked he told them the processes. Look back at the underlined words of the context.

If as you claim Peter were to command baptism, that would raise baptism to the level of belief for salvation. Peter did not state that one had to be baptized to gain salvation.

It is a command because repentance is necessary for Salvation. And Baptism is necessary for the indwelling of the Spirit.

I disagree. First because "Godly sorrow works repentance to salvation not to be repented of..." That is the sorrow of this world and the repentance of this world work nothing but death. In contrast, the person who is drawn to Christ by the work of the Father experiences Godly sorrow and repentance.

Second, The person being indwelt by the Spirit is not conditioned upon baptism. The Holy Spirit is given to the believer by God for specific reasons and mere mortal man does not prevent God's gift.

Baptism is very important for many reasons. The most important in my opinion is to be baptized in all the members of the God head. The proclaiming of Christ is or should be done before the baptism. I believe with out the public anouncment of believing in Christ no one is saved. Baptism doesn't save it self but it is the will of God. If it is the will of God (and it is). Then do we dare, to not be baptized?
MB

Where do I start? I will give a short itemized statement.

First, Unless God has already done a work in the person to quicken their awareness of the need of Christ, God's measure of faith being implanted in them, and the placement of a new nature within, the person cannot proclaim Christ as their savior, except they lie. The birth of a believer is not unlike that of a birth of child. Evidence of life is the cry. Life is not based upon the cry, nor does the cry bring life.

Second, Certainly there is no doubt that God "wills" that all believer's be baptized, but that doesn't move it into the realm of command.

Believers resist and dismiss the leading of the Holy Spirit every day. The Holy Spirit doesn't carry a base drum, but a very small voice. In the din of living and life experiences, the Spirit of God is easily ignored.

If one (as Cowper) is raised in deprivation of love and cannot rationally accept God's love, does that mean they cannot be saved? John Newton didn't think so. It matters not what the reason one hesitates or refuses baptism.

What really matters that the believer has and will miss out on one of the most high holy worship experiences that is available to them. Given appropriate teaching, and gentle encouragement, the believer will be submissive to the ordinance.

At no time is the ordinance a command, nor is it to be taken as a qualifier of the state of one's relationship to Christ in salvation.

 

[OldRegular]

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
MB

None of these Scripture support your previous assertion!

Originally Posted by MB
And Baptism is necessary for the indwelling of the Spirit.
MB

 

[freeatlast]

As I have posted the words by Peter do not constitute a command. Peter was exhorting, testifying. When the people asked he told them the processes. Look back at the underlined words of the context.

If as you claim Peter were to command baptism, that would raise baptism to the level of belief for salvation. Peter did not state that one had to be baptized to gain salvation.




I disagree. First because "Godly sorrow works repentance to salvation not to be repented of..." That is the sorrow of this world and the repentance of this world work nothing but death. In contrast, the person who is drawn to Christ by the work of the Father experiences Godly sorrow and repentance.

Second, The person being indwelt by the Spirit is not conditioned upon baptism. The Holy Spirit is given to the believer by God for specific reasons and mere mortal man does not prevent God's gift.






Where do I start? I will give a short itemized statement.

First, Unless God has already done a work in the person to quicken their awareness of the need of Christ, God's measure of faith being implanted in them, and the placement of a new nature within, the person cannot proclaim Christ as their savior, except they lie. The birth of a believer is not unlike that of a birth of child. Evidence of life is the cry. Life is not based upon the cry, nor does the cry bring life.

Second, Certainly there is no doubt that God "wills" that all believer's be baptized, but that doesn't move it into the realm of command.

Believers resist and dismiss the leading of the Holy Spirit every day. The Holy Spirit doesn't carry a base drum, but a very small voice. In the din of living and life experiences, the Spirit of God is easily ignored.

If one (as Cowper) is raised in deprivation of love and cannot rationally accept God's love, does that mean they cannot be saved? John Newton didn't think so. It matters not what the reason one hesitates or refuses baptism.

What really matters that the believer has and will miss out on one of the most high holy worship experiences that is available to them. Given appropriate teaching, and gentle encouragement, the believer will be submissive to the ordinance.

At no time is the ordinance a command, nor is it to be taken as a qualifier of the state of one's relationship to Christ in salvation.

Baptism is a command. Any person refusing the first command they have is suspect as to being saved.

 

[agedman]

Obediance to what? How can we be obediant to somehting that is not a command according to you?

Obedience is the act of placing someone or something else as having a higher priority or authority than the one who obeys.

It is a the same with the word "respect."

It cannot be demanded nor earned.

It is always the act of an individual.

Obedience may be encouraged, lack of obedience punished, and the reward / punishment may provide overwhelming rationalization to obey or respect.

But ultimately, it remains with the individual to act or respond (or not) in obedience.

The second part is "to what?"

To whomever or whatever is asking.

For instance, I can be obedient to my children, wife, friends, but that doesn't mean they are commanding - well my wife - nope I won't go there.


My car engine may signal with dash lights and steam that the engine needs attention, but those are not commands. My obedience is voluntary.

 

[freeatlast]

Obedience is the act of placing someone or something else as having a higher priority or authority than the one who obeys.

It is a the same with the word "respect."

It cannot be demanded nor earned.

It is always the act of an individual.

Obedience may be encouraged, lack of obedience punished, and the reward / punishment may provide overwhelming rationalization to obey or respect.

But ultimately, it remains with the individual to act or respond (or not) in obedience.

The second part is "to what?"

To whomever or whatever is asking.

For instance, I can be obedient to my children, wife, friends, but that doesn't mean they are commanding - well my wife - nope I won't go there.


My car engine may signal with dash lights and steam that the engine needs attention, but those are not commands. My obedience is voluntary.

To respond in obedience first requires authority give a command. Your car is making a suggestion. Baptism is a command.There is a big difference. God commands Baptism for those who have been saved.

 

[agedman]

Baptism is a command. Any person refusing the first command they have is suspect as to being saved.

You remind me of the old time preacher who knowing the argument was weak, wrote in the margin of the sermon notes, "Give with much repetition and shout more forcefully.

You have proved by the responses to your posts that:

1) Baptism is not a command - but an ordinance.

2) Baptism is not an indicator of salvation of lack thereof.

3) Both (1) and (2) above are century held Baptist distinctions.

 

[OldRegular]

This argument is a little, silly, judgmental? I suppose all arguments are. The point is that Baptists say the only proper mode of Baptism is immersion or "dunkin" if you prefer.

Are some people on this Forum saying that all those outside the Baptist communion who refuse immersion are unsaved? That is a pretty bold statement, if you believe that salvation is by Grace alone!