glfredrick
New Member
But... They did not. You are trying to write your own version of God's Word!
Jesus said PRECISELY what He said, and that is what we have to go on to base our understanding and inferences.
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Theoretical sinlessness
- Thread starter The Biblicist
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But... They did not. You are trying to write your own version of God's Word!
Jesus said PRECISELY what He said, and that is what we have to go on to base our understanding and inferences.
Not only so, but the very reason Christ sent both the Lawyer and the Rich young ruler to the law is to PROVE to themselves that such a suppositional theory is wrong and impossible!
glfredrick
New Member
It does not surprise me that you disagree. Seems to go that way. In any case, and I completely agree that Jesus did not make "misleading statements" except that every time He spoke a parable there was confusion surrounding the correct interpretation of that parable; Jesus mentioned that in the Gospel accounts, IF the Law is impossible for any human to keep, then what Jesus was in fact saying by telling a man to keep all the Law is, "Sorry, you cannot and we both know it."
An additional issue is the fact that the lawyer was TESTING Jesus. Can one "test" God and win" That in and of itself speaks of a prideful attitude that houses sin, so in fact (again) what Jesus was pointing to was that this man was not quite so perfect in his keeping of the Law as he thought he was.
But, that being said, here are a few FACTS that we must consider before jumping to the conclusion that we potentially can be saved by keeping the Law:
- In fact, we DO have to keep ALL the Law, perfectly, in order to be saved.
- In fact, we CANNOT keep ALL the Law, perfectly, no man save Jesus has ever done so, and because of this the potential to be saved by keeping the Law is removed by the impossibility of doing so.
- Therefore, becasue we have violated the Law and because we must keep the Law perfectly in order to be saved, we CANNOT be saved, just as Jesus said.
EXCEPT, that Jesus, Himself, perfectly kept the Law and we are the recipients of His imputed righteousness -- our salvation is not found in our actions, but rather solely in Christ.
"While we were yet sinners..."
And, finally, Christ Himself may or may not have had the POTENTIAL to fall into sin. Satan certainly thought that He could entice Christ into sin, and he tried to get Him to do just that. But the fact is, Jesus did not fall into sin, and it is BY HIM that we are saved, not by our own "works" of keeping the Law. He kept the Law perfectly, both actively and passively.
What you are missing is that we CANNOT be saved by "works" and keeping the Law, even perfectly, is nothing more than a work.
Eph 2:8-10 (ESV) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Jerry Shugart
New Member
Why do you refuse to answer the question? Of course it is not difficult to see why you just run away without answering it. Suppose a person heard the following conversation between the lawyer and the Lord Jesus:
"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).
Then suppose that person came over to the Lord Jesus and asked Him, "So if a person keeps the law then they will obtain eternal life?"
After all, that would be the logical inference anyone would draw from hearing that exchange between the two men.
In your opinion what would be the Lord Jesus' answer?
Jerry Shugart
New Member
Then why do you refuse to answer my question since what He said is all we have to go on to base our understanding and inferences? Perhaps this time you will actually step up to the plate and answer my question.
glfredrick
New Member
I did if you will spend even a couple of minutes reading my post above.
When Jesus answered the lawyer about keeping the law, it was a rhetorical question. Jesus already knew that the lawyer had blown it. He had NOT kept the law. The statement "wanting to justify himself" proves that he knew he had not kept the law regarding loving God and loving his neighbor. Jesus proved this when he told the parable of the Samaritan who was attacked on his journey. Jews did not consider any non-Jew to be a "neighbor". Therefore, the point Jesus was trying to make with this lawyer was that he had NOT kept the law. Neither has any many kept it perfectly. If we could, we would be perfect as God is perfect and have no need of a Savior.
The intent of the Law is show that we have already sinned. This is the whole point Jesus was making.
Amy, you might be missing the point. No one is saying a man will live a sinless life (or at least I'm not), the question is that IF a man lived a sinless life would he earn eternal life? And the answer to that is YES. When the rich ruler and lawyer asked Jesus what they must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus answered that they needed to keep the commandments. This was a perfectly honest answer. The scholars I quoted all agreed this is what Jesus said.
That said, all of these same scholars said the scriptures are clear that no man (except Jesus) will ever keep all the commandments, and I agree 100% with that.
That what Jesus said is important because it refutes original sin. The reason being, that even if a man did keep all the commandments he would still be guilty of Adam's sin. Do you understand that? Therefore, some cannot accept what Jesus clearly said as true. If OS is true, Jesus could not have told them if they kept the commandments they would enter life. But Jesus did in fact say that.
I disagree.
John 14
6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
There is NO other way to the Father. This is taught from Genesis to Revelation. Works will NOT get you there.
The reason this is important is because if what Jesus said is literal and true, it refutes Original Sin. The entire system of the Catholics and all Reformed churches rests on OS as their foundation, these systems will collapse if OS is proven false.
But there is another issue, and that is denying that Jesus came in the flesh and was 100% human. The scriptures say Jesus took on the NATURE of his brethren, the seed of Abraham. Well, if they were born with a sin nature, then so was Jesus.
So, they are stuck. If they agree OS is false, then they can agree Jesus had the same nature as post-fall men, but their system will collapse.
But if they maintain OS, then they have to deny that Jesus truly had the same nature as his brethren the Jews.
This is why it is important to understand what Jesus said.
But there is another issue, and that is denying that Jesus came in the flesh and was 100% human. The scriptures say Jesus took on the NATURE of his brethren, the seed of Abraham. Well, if they were born with a sin nature, then so was Jesus.
So, they are stuck. If they agree OS is false, then they can agree Jesus had the same nature as post-fall men, but their system will collapse.
But if they maintain OS, then they have to deny that Jesus truly had the same nature as his brethren the Jews.
This is why it is important to understand what Jesus said.
Amy, that is because the scriptures confirm no man will ever keep the law, and so their only way to come to God is through Jesus.
But that does not mean Jesus was not telling the truth when he said, "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Mat 19:17)
Jesus doesn't lie, and he doesn't make misleading statements, this statement is perfect truth. If a man perfectly keeps all of God's laws he will inherit eternal life.
And the scholars I quoted all agreed with this interpretation.
Jerry Shugart
New Member
I read your post. Are you saying that this is your answer?:
That does not answer my question.
Suppose a person heard the following conversation between the lawyer and the Lord Jesus:
"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).
Then suppose that person came over to the Lord Jesus and asked Him, "So if a person keeps the law then they will obtain eternal life?"
After all, that would be the logical inference anyone would draw from hearing that exchange between the two men.
In your opinion what would be the Lord Jesus' answer?
Jesus was more specific than this, in Mat 19:17 Jesus directly said;
"but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
These fellows are in the position of having to prove Jesus did not mean what he directly said.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: If it was understood that one would have to keep the law from the age of accountability onward, His reply would be, absolutely! That by the way is not simply an opinion, but the truth according to the words of Christ Himself. His words are not meaningless. :thumbsup:
Yes, but I hope neither of you fellows is saying any man will ever live a sinless life, I would depart from you there, the scriptures are clear that ALL men have sinned and come short of the glory of God. This applies to all men who will ever live.
You guys are not claiming any man can live a sinless life are you?
Jerry Shugart
New Member
Yes, and have you noticed that they have ALL continued to avoid actually answering the question? They run as fast as the can. They will not be corrected:
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Tim.3:16).
I am in agreement with you up to this point, but please answer my post #35.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: If I said no, that might put you in a camp that is taking some heat. Are you sure you want to join us?:smilewinkgrin:
Seriously my anwser is no. (sorry:laugh
No one in our dispensation will live without sin at some point in their life, for God now calls on 'all' men to repent. All have sinned and came short of the glory of God.HP: If I said no, that might put you in a camp that is taking some heat. Are you sure you want to join us?:smilewinkgrin:
Seriously my anwser is no. (sorry:laugh
No, don't kid around, I take these issues very seriously.
I don't understand what you mean by this dispensation, please explain.
I can tell you right now that I believe the scriptures teach that 100% of men who have or will ever live will sin, except of course Jesus.
I do not believe in sinless perfection whatsoever.
Jerry Shugart
New Member
I have repeatedly said that living a sinless life is only "theoretically" possible.
No man except the Lord esus has ever lived a sinless life and no man in the future will keep God's commandments perfectly.
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