Thank you Jerry, I just wanted to make sure. I am still in agreement with you.
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Theoretical sinlessness
- Thread starter The Biblicist
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Thank you Jerry, I just wanted to make sure. I am still in agreement with you.
19 “Why do you call Me good?” Jesus asked him. “No one is good but One—God. 20 You know the commandments:
Do not commit adultery;
do not murder;
do not steal;
do not bear false witness;
honor your father and mother.”
21 “I have kept all these from my youth,” he said.
22 When Jesus heard this, He told him, “You still lack one thing: Sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.”
Was Jesus saying that the young ruler only had to keep these 5 commandments? By your logic, yes He is. (Which of course He really isn't).
This is the kind of logic you guys are trying to use to say that we can "theoretically" work our way to heaven.
Jesus is teaching about our sinful nature. There is no theoretical anything. It doesn't matter what is "theoretical" because it doesn't exist. Theoretically, if I sprout wings I could fly. So what???
We are sinful beings from birth. Period. The Law CANNOT save even IF it could be kept because we are not saved by works. We are saved by GRACE through FAITH. This is God's way.
I would imagine the Pharisees had this same conversation in Jesus' day.
Do not commit adultery;
do not murder;
do not steal;
do not bear false witness;
honor your father and mother.”
21 “I have kept all these from my youth,” he said.
22 When Jesus heard this, He told him, “You still lack one thing: Sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.”
Was Jesus saying that the young ruler only had to keep these 5 commandments? By your logic, yes He is. (Which of course He really isn't).
This is the kind of logic you guys are trying to use to say that we can "theoretically" work our way to heaven.
Jesus is teaching about our sinful nature. There is no theoretical anything. It doesn't matter what is "theoretical" because it doesn't exist. Theoretically, if I sprout wings I could fly. So what???
We are sinful beings from birth. Period. The Law CANNOT save even IF it could be kept because we are not saved by works. We are saved by GRACE through FAITH. This is God's way.
I would imagine the Pharisees had this same conversation in Jesus' day.
Amy, Jesus directly said, "but if thou wilt enter life, keep the commandments" (Mat 19:17)
Jesus wasn't lying, and he was not using a figure of speech, he was answering the direct question, "what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"
We all agree that no man will ever perfectly obey all of God's commands, but this does not negate that Jesus gave the young rich ruler a perfectly honest and direct answer.
After this he told the young man to give up his worldly possessions, which the man was not willing to do. This was the sin of coveting, which proved he had not kept all the commandments.
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Nowhere does the bible say or imply we can be, theoretically or otherwise, saved by works.
Paul said,
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Does Paul contradict Jesus? Did Jesus say you can be saved by following the Law and then send Paul to the Gentiles to tell them something completely different?
Even before the Law, people were saved by grace through faith. Abraham's faith was accounted to him as righteousness, not his works.
In the days of the Law, it was faith that made one right with God, not works of the Law.
So to even imply that Jesus was teaching that obeying the Law would bring salvation is contrary to the bible from Genesis to Revelation.
He also said, "But IF thou wilt be PERFECT" which is a clear denial he was perfect and thus a clear repudiation of that man's previous claim he had kept all the commandments from his youth up which in turn was proof that "there is NONE good but one and that is God."
Your whole theoretical rationale is based upon the necessity that man is intrinsically "good" by nature.
Man must be essentially good by nature or else there can be no basis for your THEORETICAL assumption!
However, Jesus clearly repudiates the very foundation of your theoretical presumption by declaring "There is NONE good but ONE and that is God."
If there is "NONE GOOD" then there is no basis to THEORIZE any man can obtain eternal life by law keeping because law keeping demands such intrinsic goodness by nature as the basis to obtain eternal life!
glfredrick
New Member
You are reading the passage in the wrong inflection. In essence Jesus is saying that you cannot enter the kingdom based on works, for no one can be perfect in their works and everyone knows that, including, by the way, the Jewish teachers of the Law.
Jesus is clearly denying what the young man is asserting! The man is asserting he is intrinsically good by nature and therefore he can do something to obtain eternal life. - Jesus denies this
He is asserting he has kept all the commandments from his youth up. - Jesus denies this but admits that being "perfect" is what is required.
The problem is making the young man see he is not instrinsically good by nature and has not kept the law from his youth up.
Christ's solution to confront the young man with this reality is to move the argument from DOCTRINAL to a PRACTICAL demonstration that he is not instrinscially good by nature and has not really kept the commandments from youth up.
How? By making him DEMONSTRATE it by forcing him to making a decision that would expose his true condition.
Sell everything - would require complete love for God and absolute trust in God for sustance
Give to the poor - would require complete self-denial and love for his neighbor as he loves himself
Come and follow me - would require complete trust in Christ and a complete death to self life!
Isn't this the DEMONSTRATABLE application of the two Great Commandments which summarize the whole Law of God????
Here is one Jewish teacher that might disagree with you:
Philippians 3:5-6
King James Version (KJV)
5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Of course, it could be argued that he was not a teacher, though I would not.
Biblicist makes an indisputable point, inflection aside: there is none good...among men.
That "In essence Jesus is saying that you cannot enter the kingdom based on works, for no one can be perfect in their works" is also implied is true, but it does not make the point made one that can be contradicted with an additional truth.
Could you restate this? I have read it several times and still have no idea what you are saying.
Amy, you do realize that Jesus as a man lived under the law and completely fulfilled it?
He did not do this supernaturally, as he emptied himself when he became a man. He did it in full obedience and reliance to God.
Even when Jesus performed miracles, he did not do it in his own power, but in the power of the Holy Spirit. And he only did what his Father had shown him to do.
The issue of Jesus's full humanity is at stake here. If a man could not perfectly keep the law, then Jesus was not truly a man. To deny this is the spirit of antichrist.
What Jesus said was a direct truth.
Why coitanly...
Seriously, this was in response to this statement:
I said:
I should have emphasized "blameless" in the first post, it might have made this a bit clearer, as to what point was to be made.
The same word is used here:
Luke 1:6
King James Version (KJV)
6And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Keeping the law could be accomplished, insofar as that is restrained to the human perspective. We can still understand that their righteousness and "blameless" position does not mean sinless.
If they were indeed sinless, then Galatians 2:21 would be in contradiction, and God would indeed have been required to grant eternal life to Zacharias and Elisabeth.
What is more probable is that this position of righteousness and blamelessness was that of those who were familiar with them.
In the case of Paul, he had no doubts, concerning righteousness which is in the law...he was blameless.
It is fortunate that he understood as well that keeping the law did not equate to sinlessness, nor that he would gain eternal life by his "righteousness," which would ultimately be considered, from a divine standard...dung.
God bless.
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' Matthew 22:37
How do we love God and not love His Son? If one loves God, then they must love Jesus.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
Loving God is loving Jesus.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
How do we love God and not love His Son? If one loves God, then they must love Jesus.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
Loving God is loving Jesus.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
You might look at it a different way. A couple chapters later Jesus summed up all the all the law:
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. (Matthew 22:37-38)
--Do you love God?
He that loves God will keep my commandments (1John 2)
What are his commandments?
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 3:3)
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (John 8:24)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)
Would the command of Christ also include loving...Calvinists?
Was Paul contradicting Jesus? Was salvation earned by a Jew, but a gift for a Gentile? Two different types of salvation?
Jesus was fully man but He was also fully God. It sounds like you are saying Jesus was in every way like us.
Whenever I hear a Christian loudly proclaim that they sin, I wonder if there is ANY sin that they gave up, not sins they never committed, but sins they actually gave up.
If I did not have love, I would not care what Calvinists believed.
How many Calvinists, exactly, do you know?
What do you really want to say? Is this your way of loving me?
I said what I wanted to say, can you answer the question?
As far as loving you, I do not know you yet. I do the best I can, I "reckon"...lol.
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