Heavenly Pilgrim
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Excellent post and observations Winman.:thumbs:
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Theoretical sinlessness
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I am not denying that the forces of darkness are not at work in this world, in fact that is part of the explanation for sin. Satan does not have the power to compel, only to suggest and tempt.
And notice Eph 2:2 you quoted, it says "when you followed the ways of this world". There is your answer, the world tempts, as Satan tempted Eve, and we "follow" as Eve did. It is a willful and knowing decision of the will that causes a person to sin.
We are born flesh with natural desires and lusts. These desires are not moral, they can make no decision, but they place a strong temptation on the will. A newborn child has desires, and his will easily gratifies these desires. But it takes time before a child can understand good from evil. The natural desires have a big head start on the intellect. When a child does understand right from wrong and can make a moral choice, the desires have already developed a strong influence over the will. The child will give in to the desires even though his intellect tells him it is sin. When a person does this they become sinful. The more they do this, the more depraved they become. And the stronger hold sin has on him.
This agrees with Ecc 7:29 which says we are made upright, but later seek inventions. Seeking is a willing decision to pursue these temptations, which arise when a man is enticed of his own lust. The world serves to excite these lusts, as Satan excited Eve's natural desires in the garden. The tree looked good for food, was pleasant to the eyes, and desired to make one wise. Satan simply excited these desires, Eve willingly chose to follow or obey them.
You said: Satan does not have the power to compel, only to suggest and tempt.
My reply: Could you tell me the scripture for this teaching?
You said: And notice Eph 2:2 you quoted, it says "when you followed the ways of this world". There is your answer, the world tempts, as Satan tempted Eve, and we "follow" as Eve did. It is a willful and knowing decision of the will that causes a person to sin.
My reply: You are pretending that I say things that I do not. In addition, you are the one who said needs answers. You even contradict yourself. Maybe you do not know for sure what you are arguing against. I know I have no idea what you are arguing against. It is the worst kind of discussion to be in, a person who argues and debates as you do.
You said: We are born flesh with natural desires and lusts. These desires are not moral, they can make no decision, but they place a strong temptation on the will. A newborn child has desires, and his will easily gratifies these desires. But it takes time before a child can understand good from evil. The natural desires have a big head start on the intellect. When a child does understand right from wrong and can make a moral choice, the desires have already developed a strong influence over the will. The child will give in to the desires even though his intellect tells him it is sin. When a person does this they become sinful. The more they do this, the more depraved they become. And the stronger hold sin has on him.
My reply: When you tell someone, that he or she is wrong, you need to address what he or she said that is wrong and explain what you believe is the reason why. You just go on speaking as if I had said something that I did not. In addition, you completely discount the fact that it is JESUS who SAYS sins come from THOUGHTS. I do not want to discuss with you any longer, it is the worst kind of discussion one can be part of, and that is to discuss with a person who accuses others of things that have not been said. If anything, what you say here backs up what I said. Farewell.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Can you explain this remark? Possibly a Scripture? Thanks.Moriah: you completely discount the fact that it is JESUS who SAYS sins come from THOUGHTS.
I did explain why you are wrong, it is unscriptural.
Find in the scriptures where Satan compels, you won't find it. He suggests and tempts as he did Eve and Jesus. He didn't pull the forbidden fruit off the tree and force it down Eve's mouth.
Eve had natural desires before she sinned. The tree looked good for food, that is the lust of the flesh. The tree was pleasant to the eyes, that is the lust of the eyes. The tree was desired to make one wise, that is the pride of life. These are the three lusts (in order) shown in 1 Jn 2:16.
It is not sinful to desire food, we need this desire so we eat and stay healthy. But if a person gives themselves over to this desire, they can become obese and suffer real health issues. Beauty is not sinful, it is a blessing from God to enjoy your wife's beauty. But when you look at other women it is a sin. It is not sinful to be wise, the scriptures tell us to be wise. But if you want to be wise simply to feel superior to others, then it is sin.
Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Temptation is not sin. Temptation becomes sin when you make a willful decision to obey it. For example, you are flipping through channels and see nudity. It is perfectly natural, especially for a man, to be attracted. This is temptation, but it is not sin. Now if you stop there and make a decision to watch it, it is now sin, we are not supposed to watch such things. But if you quickly realize this temptation and go to another channel, then you have not sinned. Sin is a choice. Babies cannot make a choice because their intellect is not developed. When they mature and choose evil, they become sinners.
And I am not confused.
Find in the scriptures where Satan compels, you won't find it. He suggests and tempts as he did Eve and Jesus. He didn't pull the forbidden fruit off the tree and force it down Eve's mouth.
Eve had natural desires before she sinned. The tree looked good for food, that is the lust of the flesh. The tree was pleasant to the eyes, that is the lust of the eyes. The tree was desired to make one wise, that is the pride of life. These are the three lusts (in order) shown in 1 Jn 2:16.
It is not sinful to desire food, we need this desire so we eat and stay healthy. But if a person gives themselves over to this desire, they can become obese and suffer real health issues. Beauty is not sinful, it is a blessing from God to enjoy your wife's beauty. But when you look at other women it is a sin. It is not sinful to be wise, the scriptures tell us to be wise. But if you want to be wise simply to feel superior to others, then it is sin.
Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Temptation is not sin. Temptation becomes sin when you make a willful decision to obey it. For example, you are flipping through channels and see nudity. It is perfectly natural, especially for a man, to be attracted. This is temptation, but it is not sin. Now if you stop there and make a decision to watch it, it is now sin, we are not supposed to watch such things. But if you quickly realize this temptation and go to another channel, then you have not sinned. Sin is a choice. Babies cannot make a choice because their intellect is not developed. When they mature and choose evil, they become sinners.
And I am not confused.
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HP: Can you explain this remark? Possibly a Scripture? Thanks.
I had already given the scriptures. I will give them again.
Ephesians 6:12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Matthew 15:15Peter said to Him, “Explain the parable to us.” 16Jesus said, “Are you still lacking in understanding also? 17“Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? 18“But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. 19“For out of the heart come evil THOUGHTS, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20“These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.” (Capitalization of 'THOUGHTS' are mine.)
Genesis 6:5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
Matthew 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Galatians 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
Ephesians 2:2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Matthew 13:18-19 18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
Ephesians 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Ephesians 4:17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking.
I did explain why you are wrong, it is unscriptural.
Find in the scriptures where Satan compels, you won't find it. He suggests and tempts as he did Eve and Jesus. He didn't pull the forbidden fruit off the tree and force it down Eve's mouth.
Eve had natural desires before she sinned. The tree looked good for food, that is the lust of the flesh. The tree was pleasant to the eyes, that is the lust of the eyes. The tree was desired to make one wise, that is the pride of life. These are the three lusts (in order) shown in 1 Jn 2:16.
It is not sinful to desire food, we need this desire so we eat and stay healthy. But if a person gives themselves over to this desire, they can become obese and suffer real health issues. Beauty is not sinful, it is a blessing from God to enjoy your wife's beauty. But when you look at other women it is a sin. It is not sinful to be wise, the scriptures tell us to be wise. But if you want to be wise simply to feel superior to others, then it is sin.
Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Temptation is not sin. Temptation becomes sin when you make a willful decision to obey it. For example, you are flipping through channels and see nudity. It is perfectly natural, especially for a man, to be attracted. This is temptation, but it is not sin. Now if you stop there and make a decision to watch it, it is now sin, we are not supposed to watch such things. But if you quickly realize this temptation and go to another channel, then you have not sinned. Sin is a choice. Babies cannot make a choice because their intellect is not developed. When they mature and choose evil, they become sinners.
And I am not confused.
YOU SAID: I did explain why you are wrong, it is unscriptural. Find in the scriptures where Satan compels, you won't find it. He suggests and tempts as he did Eve and Jesus. He didn't pull the forbidden fruit off the tree and force it down Eve's mouth.
MY REPLY: You just showed yourself for the hypocrite that you are. You FALSELY accuse me of believing in something UNSCRIPTURAL, YET YOU ADMIT HERE THAT YOUR BELIEF CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURES! I am glad you continued to discuss with me, for you have been exposed. You had the nerve to call me one who believes in superstition, as do witches believe. Be more careful of the awful things you accuse people.
You said: These are the three lusts (in order) shown in 1 Jn 2:16.
My reply: How in the world does 1 John 2:16 disprove what I said? It does NOT.
You said: It is not sinful to desire food, we need this desire so we eat and stay healthy. But if a person gives themselves over to this desire, they can become obese and suffer real health issues. Beauty is not sinful, it is a blessing from God to enjoy your wife's beauty. But when you look at other women it is a sin. It is not sinful to be wise, the scriptures tell us to be wise. But if you want to be wise simply to feel superior to others, then it is sin.
My reply: This is more argument from you that has nothing to do in the area of disproving ANYTHING that I said.
You said: Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
My reply: All these scriptures prove what I said, for I only speak what the scriptures say.
You said: Temptation is not sin. Temptation becomes sin when you make a willful decision to obey it. For example, you are flipping through channels and see nudity. It is perfectly natural, especially for a man, to be attracted. This is temptation, but it is not sin. Now if you stop there and make a decision to watch it, it is now sin, we are not supposed to watch such things. But if you quickly realize this temptation and go to another channel, then you have not sinned. Sin is a choice. Babies cannot make a choice because their intellect is not developed. When they mature and choose evil, they become sinners. And I am not confused
My reply: Yes, you are confused.
Moriah, nobody denies that men have evil thoughts and desires, but this does not mean you were born that way.
Everybody loves to quote Gen 6:5 that says the imaginations of the thoughts of men's hearts was only evil continually, but these same folks always overlook (or ignore) Gen 6:12.
Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
This verse does not say men are born evil, it says men "corrupted" themselves. Look up the definition of corrupt. It means to defile, pervert, to spoil, go bad... Corrupt means to go from a good state to a bad state, like if you leave fruit out and it spoils. You cannot corrupt something that was already corrupt.
In fact, if you read all through the scriptures concerning sin, you will always see this. It will say we have "turned aside" or "gone out of the way", or "gone astray" or "become unprofitable". It always shows us going from good to bad.
People do not notice these words, because their mind has been conditioned to believe men are born evil. That is not what scriptures teach, they teach man turns from God and becomes evil. Read carefully and see for yourself.
Everybody loves to quote Gen 6:5 that says the imaginations of the thoughts of men's hearts was only evil continually, but these same folks always overlook (or ignore) Gen 6:12.
Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
This verse does not say men are born evil, it says men "corrupted" themselves. Look up the definition of corrupt. It means to defile, pervert, to spoil, go bad... Corrupt means to go from a good state to a bad state, like if you leave fruit out and it spoils. You cannot corrupt something that was already corrupt.
In fact, if you read all through the scriptures concerning sin, you will always see this. It will say we have "turned aside" or "gone out of the way", or "gone astray" or "become unprofitable". It always shows us going from good to bad.
People do not notice these words, because their mind has been conditioned to believe men are born evil. That is not what scriptures teach, they teach man turns from God and becomes evil. Read carefully and see for yourself.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Thanks Moriah. I would simply disagree that any of the texts you posted show 'thoughts' in and of themselves as sin. All intentions involve thoughts, but thoughts in and of themselves do not constitute sin. Lust may be a thought but all lust is not sin. When lust is conceived it bringeth forth sin. The will must be involved in forming intents of selfishness for sin to be conceived via a thought.
I might give you one example. The other day on the job a man, knowing I was a Christian, held up his phone to complain about a text sent to him. Before I could look away there was a wicked image on the screen I could not have failed to see. I turned away but the thought was already quickly impressed on my mind. Did I sin?
I might give you one example. The other day on the job a man, knowing I was a Christian, held up his phone to complain about a text sent to him. Before I could look away there was a wicked image on the screen I could not have failed to see. I turned away but the thought was already quickly impressed on my mind. Did I sin?
Men are born evil. The Bible teaches it. This truth is irrefutable.Moriah, nobody denies that men have evil thoughts and desires, but this does not mean you were born that way.
Everybody loves to quote Gen 6:5 that says the imaginations of the thoughts of men's hearts was only evil continually, but these same folks always overlook (or ignore) Gen 6:12.
Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
This verse does not say men are born evil, it says men "corrupted" themselves. Look up the definition of corrupt. It means to defile, pervert, to spoil, go bad... Corrupt means to go from a good state to a bad state, like if you leave fruit out and it spoils. You cannot corrupt something that was already corrupt.
In fact, if you read all through the scriptures concerning sin, you will always see this. It will say we have "turned aside" or "gone out of the way", or "gone astray" or "become unprofitable". It always shows us going from good to bad.
People do not notice these words, because their mind has been conditioned to believe men are born evil. That is not what scriptures teach, they teach man turns from God and becomes evil. Read carefully and see for yourself.
(Jer 17:9) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
(Jer 13:23) Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
(Psa 58:3) The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
(Eph 2:2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(Eph 2:3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Moriah, nobody denies that men have evil thoughts and desires, but this does not mean you were born that way.
Everybody loves to quote Gen 6:5 that says the imaginations of the thoughts of men's hearts was only evil continually, but these same folks always overlook (or ignore) Gen 6:12.
Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
This verse does not say men are born evil, it says men "corrupted" themselves. Look up the definition of corrupt. It means to defile, pervert, to spoil, go bad... Corrupt means to go from a good state to a bad state, like if you leave fruit out and it spoils. You cannot corrupt something that was already corrupt.
In fact, if you read all through the scriptures concerning sin, you will always see this. It will say we have "turned aside" or "gone out of the way", or "gone astray" or "become unprofitable". It always shows us going from good to bad.
People do not notice these words, because their mind has been conditioned to believe men are born evil. That is not what scriptures teach, they teach man turns from God and becomes evil. Read carefully and see for yourself.
You said: Moriah, nobody denies that men have evil thoughts and desires, but this does not mean you were born that way.
My reply: We are born to have thoughts, and the thoughts are not always helpful, good, or right. The Bible says all are sinners.
You said: Everybody loves to quote Gen 6:5 that says the imaginations of the thoughts of men's hearts was only evil continually, but these same folks always overlook (or ignore) Gen 6:12.
Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
My reply: How does this disprove anything that I said? Did not their corrupted way start with a thought? Of course it did! Did the adulterer not first think of the woman in a sexual way? Did not the thief first think about how much he wanted to covet? I want you to answer that question; did not all the sins people commit start first as a thought, a feeling? I want you to admit it.
You said: This verse does not say men are born evil, it says men "corrupted" themselves. Look up the definition of corrupt. It means to defile, pervert, to spoil, go bad... Corrupt means to go from a good state to a bad state, like if you leave fruit out and it spoils. You cannot corrupt something that was already corrupt.
My reply: AGAIN, it starts with a thought!
You said: In fact, if you read all through the scriptures concerning sin, you will always see this. It will say we have "turned aside" or "gone out of the way", or "gone astray" or "become unprofitable". It always shows us going from good to bad.
My reply: AGAIN, IT STARTS WITH A THOUGHT. Nothing you have said disproves what I said.
You said: People do not notice these words, because their mind has been conditioned to believe men are born evil. That is not what scriptures teach, they teach man turns from God and becomes evil. Read carefully and see for yourself.
My reply: Take your own advice and read carefully. I never said we are born evil. You stray from what is said, and that is not good.
Moriah, since you came to BB, you have done nothing but insult people. Your first reply ever to me (when I had never addressed you), was to say I loudly proclaim my sin which is an utterly false accusation. You ask myself and others what sins we have given up. Well, I'll point out a sin you haven't given up, that is judging folks you don't even know. That is called prejudice and is shown as sin in the book of James.
Your belief that the sin nature comes through the air is unscriptural and even ridiculous. If you want to believe that, that is your right, but good luck getting anyone else to buy it, because no such thing is said in scripture.
Why don't we just agree to go our own ways and agree to disagree.
Go insult someone else.
Your belief that the sin nature comes through the air is unscriptural and even ridiculous. If you want to believe that, that is your right, but good luck getting anyone else to buy it, because no such thing is said in scripture.
Why don't we just agree to go our own ways and agree to disagree.
Go insult someone else.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Winman: nobody denies that men have evil thoughts and desires, but this does not mean you were born that way.
HP: I fully agree. Scripture has many such passages as you posted.
HP: Thanks Moriah. I would simply disagree that any of the texts you posted show 'thoughts' in and of themselves as sin. All intentions involve thoughts, but thoughts in and of themselves do not constitute sin. Lust may be a thought but all lust is not sin. When lust is conceived it bringeth forth sin. The will must be involved in forming intents of selfishness for sin to be conceived via a thought.
I might give you one example. The other day on the job a man, knowing I was a Christian, held up his phone to complain about a text sent to him. Before I could look away there was a wicked image on the screen I could not have failed to see. I turned away but the thought was already quickly impressed on my mind. Did I sin?
If that example is proof that I am wrong, then you have proved nothing but that I am right. Did you have thoughts first to look at the picture? No, according to you, you did not. You did not think first that you wanted to look at wicked images. Did the picture you saw make you think about of wicked things? You cannot blame the picture for you to continue in thinking of something wicked. However, if you do continue to think of wickedness because of the picture your co-worker showed you unwillingly, then the co-worker is also sinning by helping you to sin. You would both be sinning. The Bible says we are to think of what is lovely, and what is true…
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I would disagree on this point as I have in the past. Not one of the passages you mention state or imply that me are born evil. Because I have refuted every one of them in times past I will not do so here unless one would request it.DHK: Men are born evil. The Bible teaches it. This truth is irrefutable.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Moriah, at what point would sin be conceived? We agree that the first thought implanted by the screen was not sin, so when would sin occur? What would have to happen for sin to be predicated of my thoughts?
Moriah, since you came to BB, you have done nothing but insult people. Your first reply ever to me (when I had never addressed you), was to say I loudly proclaim my sin which is an utterly false accusation. You ask myself and others what sins we have given up. Well, I'll point out a sin you haven't given up, that is judging folks you don't even know. That is called prejudice and is shown as sin in the book of James.
Your belief that the sin nature comes through the air is unscriptural and even ridiculous. If you want to believe that, that is your right, but good luck getting anyone else to buy it, because no such thing is said in scripture.
Why don't we just agree to go our own ways and agree to disagree.
Go insult someone else.
I have not done as you say. You are guilty of insults. Just read what you wrote to me here. Lol
In addition, my asking someone if he or she sinned was not that I expected him or her to tell me, but something that they were to ask themselves. I HAVE BEEN DEBATING IN POSTS ABOUT SIN. What in the world was wrong about a sin question? Do not bother answering, you keep personally attacking as part of your defense, and that is plain wrong.
As for you telling me to go insult someone else, how about you STOP insulting anyone else.
Moriah, at what point would sin be conceived? We agree that the first thought implanted by the screen was not sin, so when would sin occur? What would have to happen for sin to be predicated of my thoughts?
It would have been your sin if you continued to harbor those thoughts, and did nothing to rid yourself of those thoughts. If you continued to think of them, it would be sin. Since you do not believe thoughts are like the air, what would you compare them? How do they just arrive in your heart, as if from nowhere? Why are they so often naturally negative? Why do they always come before sin?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Moriah, I still have the image in my mind. It is permanently imprinted on my brain. Is it sin?
Moriah, I still have the image in my mind. It is permanently imprinted on my brain. Is it sin?
I already answered this question.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
If you infer it is sin now, you are wrong.
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