Theoretical sinlessness

[DHK]

I have never said that I live a sinless life. Nonetheless what I said in my previous post is true and you said nothing which proves what I said is not true.

There is no doubt a Christian can live and should live a holy life; that his life should be considerably different from those that are in the world, so different that the world should sit up and take notice that this man is a Christian. I believe that.
That is what is theoretically possible; not sinlessness.

And if you have attained that in your life, then God bless you for it.
Everyone of us should strive to live holy lives, separated from the world.
BTW, that word "holy" means "set apart." It has the connotation of being set apart from the world, not only from sin. It also has the meaning of being set apart for God's service.

But a holy life is not a sinless life.
The topic of this thread is "theoretical sinlessness."
In the light of Scripture:

(1Jn 1:8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(1Jn 1:10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

It is impossible to live a sinless life, even theoretically.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, how might you respond to post #233 by DHK?

I am not sure of why he is quoting those verses because I am having trouble keeping up with the substance of your disagreement with him.

With that in mind, let me give you my interpretation of the first verse he quoted:

(Php 1:6) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

This is speaking of a work that God began in a believer earlier and will end on the day of Jesus Christ--the rapture.

He began the work when He sealed us with the Holy Spirit, Who is the earnest of our inheritance until the time when we will receive our new immortal bodies on the day of redemption--the day of Jesus Christ.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

BTW, that word "holy" means "set apart." It has the connotation of being set apart from the world, not only from sin. It also has the meaning of being set apart for God's service.

That is one of the meanings but the setting apart is not done by the Christian but by the Holy Spirit:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (1 Pet.1:2).

But a holy life is not a sinless life.

This verse is speaking about what a Christian is to do:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).

The meaning of the Greek word translated "holy" in this verse is "in a moral sense, pure, sinless, upright" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thanks Jerry.

 

[DHK]

That is one of the meanings but the setting apart is not done by the Christian but by the Holy Spirit:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (1 Pet.1:2).
This verse is speaking about what a Christian is to do:

There is positional sanctification that happens at salvation. That is what the verse you quoted refers to. We are all sanctified initially at salvation. God sets us apart.
Then there is practical sanctification, living a holy life. That is something we must do. God isn't going to do it for us. You must be able to distinguish between these two different concepts.

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service"

(Ro.12:1).

Very evidently this is practical. It is you that must present your body. God doesn't do it. It is your reasonable service. God doesn't serve himself on your behalf. You must make the choice to serve him.

The meaning of the Greek word translated "holy" in this verse is "in a moral sense, pure, sinless, upright" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

You have chosen one meaning out of many--the meaning that best suits your theology. That isn't the way it works. That is not proper hermeneutics. You must choose the word that fits the context, usually the word that is used the most which is usually the meaning that is given first--the most used meaning of the word. What is that? "In a moral sense." You gave one of the minor, least used meanings of the word.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


How would one harmonize this passage with the notion that it is by our own efforts we are to live a holy life, and not by a work of the Holy Spirit in our lives by faith?

I certainly believe the will is involved in every moral act. I still would believe it is the promise of God to those that believe to do a work by faith in our lives to the end we walk holy and righteous before Him. I would disagree with DHK in his position that 1Thess 5:23 speaks of Gods work at initial salvation. Paul was not addressing those that needed to be saved, but rather was addressing those already saved but needed a deeper walk with the Lord. Paul was saying that God would perform this work in them. That does not exclude the will of man in exercising faith for such a work, for we know that without faith it is impossible to please God.


Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You have chosen one meaning out of many--the meaning that best suits your theology.

Then give me the meaning which you think is the correct one for the Greek word translated "holy" in the following verse:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).

 

[glfredrick]

Then give me the meaning which you think is the correct one for the Greek word translated "holy" in the following verse:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).

set apart :thumbs: The entire context of the passage points to that interpretation, especially in light of the fact that God knows that there are no sinless people.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

set apart :thumbs: The entire context of the passage points to that interpretation, especially in light of the fact that God knows that there are no sinless people.

Let us look at the verse again:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).

This is in regard to something a Christian himself does and the following verse is speaking about what we are to do in order to make ourselves "holy":

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Psa 37:1Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
Psa 37:2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
Psa 37:3 Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.
Psa 37:4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.
Psa 37:5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.
Psa 37:6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.
Psa 37:7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him:

HP: Here is yet another Scriptural example of what God will give to his children who seek Him with their whole heart. Just think about the implications of this verse if one was just to have a desire in their heart, and seek God to help them walk a holy walk before Him. It all starts with "Delighting thyself in the Lord!" Then we are told to committ our way to the Lord, to trust in Him and He promises to bring it to pass.

Does anyone on board have a desire to put God's promises to the test? Is there any on board that honestly have a desire to walk holy before God? Are there any on board that want to delight themselves in the Lord? Are there any that would be willing to trust God to bring it to pass? The Psalmist says, "Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for Him!

Oh Lord, I believe, help thou now mine unbelief!

 

[DHK]

Let us look at the verse again:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).

This is in regard to something a Christian himself does and the following verse is speaking about what we are to do in order to make ourselves "holy":

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).

Does your theology match your Christian life?

Have you done what you teach?
Have you "perfected holiness" in your life, that is lived in perfect sinless, as you say the verse means>
Do you live a sinless life?
Does your interpretation of the verse match your life?
Are you sinless?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Are you sinless?

I have already said numerous times that I am not sinless and you know it.

You have chosen one meaning out of many--the meaning that best suits your theology.

Then give me the meaning which you think is the correct one for the Greek word translated "holy" in the following verse:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).

 

[DHK]

I have already said numerous times that I am not sinless and you know it.

Then give me the meaning which you think is the correct one for the Greek word translated "holy" in the following verse:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).

Glfriedrick already did. It means "set apart." Holy means "set apart."

(YLT) I call upon you, therefore, brethren, through the compassions of God, to present your bodies a sacrifice--living, sanctified, acceptable to God--your intelligent service;

The words: holy, sanctified and saint are all related. They mean: set apart. A saint is a "set apart one." They all come from the same root word.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

We'll all be there when a bunch of educated individuals stand in judgment and try to give God Himself a lesson or two concerning the narrow confines the word 'holy' must be understood. I wonder how that will go.......

Do you suppose DHK that when it is your turn to give an account that you will be able to call up glf or some other self proclaimed GK scholar to explain your position on the word 'holy' and how you might have applied those notions to your life, again when you stand before a 'Holy' God?

 

[glfredrick]

We'll all be there when a bunch of educated individuals stand in judgment and try to give God Himself a lesson or two concerning the narrow confines the word 'holy' must be understood. I wonder how that will go.......

Do you suppose DHK that when it is your turn to give an account that you will be able to call up glf or some other self proclaimed GK scholar to explain your position on the word 'holy' and how you might have applied those notions to your life, again when you stand before a 'Holy' God?

That isn't really all that helpful, HP. Do you also try to manipulate your congregation in the same manner? Really...

I thought that you were a studied man who merely held a different theological take. Starting to re-think that.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Glfriedrick already did. It means "set apart." Holy means "set apart."

Let us look at the verse again:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).

Earlier you correctly said the following about Romans 12:1:

Very evidently this is practical. It is you that must present your body. God doesn't do it. It is your reasonable service. God doesn't serve himself on your behalf. You must make the choice to serve him.

Yes, it is practical and something we ourselves must do. And what else could that be but this:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).

We are to cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit so that means "sinlessness."

 

[DHK]

Let us look at the verse again:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).

Earlier you correctly said the following about Romans 12:1:

Yes, it is practical and something we ourselves must do. And what else could that be but this:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).

We are to cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit so that means "sinlessness."

Your interpretation contradicts your statements made about yourself. You can't reconcile your theology with practical Christian living. You say it means one thing and admit you can't do it. It is impossible.

For example you have already admitted that you are not sinless.
Yet you maintain this word means sinless.
You are insisting that Paul is giving us this command (that is possible to keep) and turning it into something that neither you nor anyone else can keep at any time. Your interpretation is ludicrous. Why would Paul command the believers to do something they cannot do? He doesn't.

Holiness is not sinlessness. You have the wrong definition.
Holiness is "to be set apart." It is to set oneself apart from the world,"
"to set oneself apart from sin." Yet at the same time we are not sinless. That would contradict 1John 1:8,9,10; 2:1,2.

Are you sinless? No.
Your interpretation contradicts the meaning of the verse.
You can't keep the command that Paul gives.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your interpretation contradicts your statements made about yourself. You can't reconcile your theology with practical Christian living.

Of course I can.
For example you have already admitted that you are not sinless.

Yet you maintain this word means sinless.

Yes, that is one of its meanings and the Greek experts affirm that truth.

You are insisting that Paul is giving us this command (that is possible to keep) and turning it into something that neither you nor anyone else can keep at any time.

Of course a Christian can do what Paul tells us to do and here is what he says:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).

We are to cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit so that means "sinlessness."

Holiness is "to be set apart." It is to set oneself apart from the world,"
"to set oneself apart from sin." Yet at the same time we are not sinless. That would contradict 1John 1:8,9,10; 2:1,2.

You do not understand that once a Christian confesses his sin then that sin is no longer credited into his account and is sent away:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "forgive" is "to send away" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So once a Christian confesses his sin that sin is sent away from him and he is cleansed from the defilement which that sin causes. At that time he can be described as sinless.

Are you willing to argue that a Christian is not capable of cleansing himself rom ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit?:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).

Are you saying that we cannot keep ourselves pure?:

"Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure" (1 Tim.5:22).

 

[glfredrick]

None of that means that we can ACTUALLY be sinless.

It DOES mean that we should strive to lead godly sanctified lives, ever becoming more conformed to the image of Christ, but we will NEVER live sinless lives.

It is seldom that DHK and I agree on theological issues but in this debate he is right on the money. You, however, remain in your rebellion against God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

None of that means that we can ACTUALLY be sinless.

It DOES mean that we should strive to lead godly sanctified lives, ever becoming more conformed to the image of Christ, but we will NEVER live sinless lives.

It is seldom that DHK and I agree on theological issues but in this debate he is right on the money. You, however, remain in your rebellion against God.

So I remain in rebellion since I insist that we do what the Apostle Paul urges us to do?:

"Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure" (1 Tim.5:22).

I would say that if anyone is in rebellion against God it is those who say that we cannot keep ourselves pure.