Bible Prophecy & Eschatology & 2 Thes 2:6-7

[evangelist6589]

There seems to be allot of overlap between the two fields of study but they are different in a sense as prophecy gets into more than just Eschatology, and eschatology fixates on millennial views, and rapture views (among premill types). Reading some of David Jeremiah yesterday whom is probably the best in todays age in the field of prophecy I came across a section in one of his books where he explains 2 Thes 2:6-7 and states that the "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit. I remember reading a eschatology book and there given a bit of space to debate who the restrainer actually is, but Jeremiah made the assumption that is was the Holy Spirit and did a very good job at explaining his view. I think he did a better job at it than Millard Erickson or whomever the author was in the book that I read and cant remember.


John

 

[Iconoclast]

There seems to be allot of overlap between the two fields of study but they are different in a sense as prophecy gets into more than just Eschatology, and eschatology fixates on millennial views, and rapture views (among premill types). Reading some of David Jeremiah yesterday whom is probably the best in todays age in the field of prophecy I came across a section in one of his books where he explains 2 Thes 2:6-7 and states that the "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit. I remember reading a eschatology book and there given a bit of space to debate who the restrainer actually is, but Jeremiah made the assumption that is was the Holy Spirit and did a very good job at explaining his view. I think he did a better job at it than Millard Erickson or whomever the author was in the book that I read and cant remember.


John

Did he explain that the antichrist was Nero because,

The temple was still standing,and in verse 5 they knew what he told them already? The mystery of iniquity was already working as he had explained to them. vs7

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

 

[evangelist6589]

Sorry I am not a replacement theologian, nor am I a preterist. I have read literature by those camps and its all hogwash. For a real and biblical explanation check out books by David Jeremiah, Walvoord, and many others.

Did he explain that the antichrist was Nero because,

The temple was still standing,and in verse 5 they knew what he told them already? The mystery of iniquity was already working as he had explained to them. vs7

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sorry I am not a replacement theologian, nor am I a preterist. I have read literature by those camps and its all hogwash. For a real and biblical explanation check out books by David Jeremiah, Walvoord, and many others.

I am not a replacement theologian , or ....a full preterist. Dispensationalism is error. Are you saying that when paul wrote vs,5 to the thessalonians.....they did not know what he was saying to them......or that the temple was not still standing?

 

[asterisktom]

Sorry I am not a replacement theologian, nor am I a preterist. I have read literature by those camps and its all hogwash. For a real and biblical explanation check out books by David Jeremiah, Walvoord, and many others.

For a real and biblical explanation check out the Bible. I won't call David Jeremiah, Walvoord, Macarthur, and those others "hogwash", but I do think that they are much more influenced by each other (or by other modern sources) than by the Bible.

And, yes, I am a Preterist and a Fulfillment (not Replacement) theologian. That term "replacement" always amused me. As if we are "cheating" the Jews by merely giving them Christ and the Gospel of Grace rather than a doleful continuation of their Law of Death.

 

[OldRegular]

For a real and biblical explanation check out the Bible. I won't call David Jeremiah, Walvoord, Macarthur, and those others "hogwash", but I do think that they are much more influenced by each other (or by other modern sources) than by the Bible.

Haven't read Jeremiah, David that is! Read some Walvoord on prophecy but since he is dispensationalist doesn't mean much. Have read several MacArthur's books but none on prophecy. I like those his that I have read.

My own personal opinion of dispensationalism is that it does not flow from Scripture, which talks about covenants, not dispensations.

And, yes, I am a Preterist and a Fulfillment (not Replacement) theologian. That term "replacement" always amused me. As if we are "cheating" the Jews by merely giving them Christ and the Gospel of Grace rather than a doleful continuation of their Law of Death.

Some dispensationalists use the term "robbing the Jews" for those who believe as I do that the Church is the fulfillment of the promise made in Genesis 3:15. Israel and the Law were simply the means God used to accomplish His purpose, the redemption of all His elect, by bringing the Savior into the world!

 

[evangelist6589]

For a real and biblical explanation check out the Bible. I won't call David Jeremiah, Walvoord, Macarthur, and those others "hogwash", but I do think that they are much more influenced by each other (or by other modern sources) than by the Bible.

And, yes, I am a Preterist and a Fulfillment (not Replacement) theologian. That term "replacement" always amused me. As if we are "cheating" the Jews by merely giving them Christ and the Gospel of Grace rather than a doleful continuation of their Law of Death.

I actually started this thread to speak with like minded brethren, as in other dispensationalists. Read the Bible? Yes these authors read and study it daily. Its too bad that some people do not care much for teachers and the people God has ordained to be leaders.

 

[evangelist6589]

So in others words because you do not read the Bible for all its worth, then Jeremiah & Walvoord are wrong?

Haven't read Jeremiah, David that is! Read some Walvoord on prophecy but since he is dispensationalist doesn't mean much. Have read several MacArthur's books but none on prophecy. I like those his that I have read.

My own personal opinion of dispensationalism is that it does not flow from Scripture, which talks about covenants, not dispensations.



Some dispensationalists use the term "robbing the Jews" for those who believe as I do that the Church is the fulfillment of the promise made in Genesis 3:15. Israel and the Law were simply the means God used to accomplish His purpose, the redemption of all His elect, by bringing the Savior into the world!

 

[OldRegular]

I actually started this thread to speak with like minded brethren, as in other dispensationalists. Read the Bible? Yes these authors read and study it daily. Its too bad that some people do not care much for teachers and the people God has ordained to be leaders.

It is a little far fetched to say that God has ordained certain dispensationalists to be teachers and leaders and we should listen to them. The error of dispensationalism has been around less than 200 years. Where were the leaders and teachers for the previous 1800 years? Did God choose to leave us ignorant? Perhaps you think He did. But you do err grievously!

 

[Iconoclast]

It is a little far fetched to say that God has ordained certain dispensationalists to be teachers and leaders and we should listen to them. The error of dispensationalism has been around less than 200 years. Where were the leaders and teachers for the previous 1800 years? Did God choose to leave us ignorant? Perhaps you think He did. But you do err grievously!

:thumbsup::applause::thumbsup::applause:

 

[convicted1]

It is a little far fetched to say that God has ordained certain dispensationalists to be teachers and leaders and we should listen to them. The error of dispensationalism has been around less than 200 years. Where were the leaders and teachers for the previous 1800 years? Did God choose to leave us ignorant? Perhaps you think He did. But you do err grievously!

:thumbsup::applause::flower::thumbsup:

 

[JesusFan]

:thumbsup::applause::flower::thumbsup:

don't know, did God leave His Church ignorant of the Gospel of Grace for 1500 years, until Luthor/Calvin and the band got the message from God?

 

[asterisktom]

don't know, did God leave His Church ignorant of the Gospel of Grace for 1500 years, until Luthor/Calvin and the band got the message from God?

There have always been people who knew God's grace, though largely forgotten by history. We have the Lollards, Petrobrusians, Albigensians, and plenty others.

 

[Darrell C]

I actually started this thread to speak with like minded brethren, as in other dispensationalists. Read the Bible? Yes these authors read and study it daily. Its too bad that some people do not care much for teachers and the people God has ordained to be leaders.

Hello E6589, I am a likeminded brother, though I could not be properly termed a dispensationalist, a covenant theologian, a calvinist/lutheran, et cetera.

I guess you could call me a "mutt."

But I can recognize the contribution to a well-rounded, honest look at scripture, and despite the terms applied to certain theological positions, and the subsequent attacks upon them as a whole without regard for whether they hold reasonable as well as valid points which have to be at the very least addressed, I try to examine the beliefs of other groups.

And would be glad to step away from the seemingly endless argument and step into a discussion.

Concerning the "Restrainer," I also believe this to be the Holy Spirit. He is not taken out of the world, but out of the way. Only God can restrain sin, and I believe that it is God that will determine, and has, the time in which we will see the Rapture (catching away) and the Tribulation begin.

God bless.

 

[evangelist6589]

It is a little far fetched to say that God has ordained certain dispensationalists to be teachers and leaders and we should listen to them. The error of dispensationalism has been around less than 200 years. Where were the leaders and teachers for the previous 1800 years? Did God choose to leave us ignorant? Perhaps you think He did. But you do err grievously!

I cant cite the sources but I dont think this is correct. In my studies in Eschatology I read some outside reading that stated that early church leaders did hold to Dispensationalism, they just had a different name for it.

 

[JesusFan]

I cant cite the sources but I dont think this is correct. In my studies in Eschatology I read some outside reading that stated that early church leaders did hold to Dispensationalism, they just had a different name for it.

"Historical pre Mill"

Also many of them still held that Jesus would return and have the Kingdom over this earth, ruling from jerusalem, as they did see His return as being a literal/physical return to earth!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Did he explain that the antichrist was Nero because,

The temple was still standing,and in verse 5 they knew what he told them already? The mystery of iniquity was already working as he had explained to them. vs7

My history may be faulty, but I can't recall reading that Nero ever sat in the Temple. The only Roman who ever did that was Pompey somewhere round about 60 BC.

My best bet for the Antichrist is still the Pope. Not the dear old fellow who occupies the post at present, but the office itself which contrives to blaspheme the entire Trinity. If this is the case, then it will be the Holy Spirit who was the restrainer.

Someone else as fvourite for Antichrist may emerge at some point, and one should always hold such views tentatively. We are told that our Lord will come 'suddenly,' 'like a thief in the night,' and also at a time when most (non-Christian) people are saying 'Peace and safety!' (1Thes 5). We are therefore to watch and be sober because we do not know the day nor the hour (Matt 25:13); that is, we know neither the exact time nor the approximate time (Mark 13:32-37). Therefore the practical lesson we draw is that we should be prepared for the Lord's return at any time. The details surrounding the event may be unclear, but our Lord's command is not. "And what I say to you, I say to all; Watch!"

Steve

 

[OldRegular]

There have always been people who knew God's grace, though largely forgotten by history. We have the Lollards, Petrobrusians, Albigensians, and plenty others.

Thanks Tom. You beat me to it!

 

[convicted1]

don't know, did God leave His Church ignorant of the Gospel of Grace for 1500 years, until Luthor/Calvin and the band got the message from God?

His Church(the body of Christ) is never ignorant. This is who the promises of God belong to, not the little nation of the mid-east.

 

[convicted1]

Hello E6589, I am a likeminded brother, though I could not be properly termed a dispensationalist, a covenant theologian, a calvinist/lutheran, et cetera.

I guess you could call me a "mutt."

But I can recognize the contribution to a well-rounded, honest look at scripture, and despite the terms applied to certain theological positions, and the subsequent attacks upon them as a whole without regard for whether they hold reasonable as well as valid points which have to be at the very least addressed, I try to examine the beliefs of other groups.

And would be glad to step away from the seemingly endless argument and step into a discussion.

Concerning the "Restrainer," I also believe this to be the Holy Spirit. He is not taken out of the world, but out of the way. Only God can restrain sin, and I believe that it is God that will determine, and has, the time in which we will see the Rapture (catching away) and the Tribulation begin.

God bless.

Well hello "mutt". Where's "Jeff"? :laugh: J/K. Please do not take offense. If this offended you, I apologize in advance.