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Imagine:
- Thread starter Havensdad
- Start date
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
It keeps getting said that we killed more than the terrorists. Let's look at some numbers I got off the websites provided to me:
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/09/07/afghanistan-civilian-deaths-airstrikes
In 2006, America accidentally killed 116 civilians in Afghanistan. Terrorists purposely killed 699.
In 2007, America accidentally killed 321 civilians in Afghanistan. Terrorists purposely killed 1633.
In the first 8 months of 2008, America accidentally killed 119 civilians in Afghanistan. Terrorists purposely killed 367.
By the way, when I say "America", I am actually quoting the numbers from any NATO strike, not just America. So it stands to reason that the numbers are actually lower for us.
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/09/07/afghanistan-civilian-deaths-airstrikes
In 2006, America accidentally killed 116 civilians in Afghanistan. Terrorists purposely killed 699.
In 2007, America accidentally killed 321 civilians in Afghanistan. Terrorists purposely killed 1633.
In the first 8 months of 2008, America accidentally killed 119 civilians in Afghanistan. Terrorists purposely killed 367.
By the way, when I say "America", I am actually quoting the numbers from any NATO strike, not just America. So it stands to reason that the numbers are actually lower for us.
That's an inaccurate portrayal of what is going on. In your scenario, it would be more like he sees you coming, and grabs his own family and starts killing them. Then to both avenge your family and stop his from getting killed by him, you kill him. If someone accidentally gets hit with a ricochet bullet, then that is on him.Havensdad said:
Robert Snow
New Member
Why is it our job to fight for their country? If they want freedom let them rebel and overthrow their evil dictator.
I'm grateful the nations that helped us gain our freedom didn't have this self centered view.
Robert Snow
New Member
I don't care what you think. France helped us because they hated England. This has nothing to do with our interfering with Muslim countries that will hate us no matter what we do.
Its one thing, when a country develops a resistance on their own (as we did), rises up (as we did) to throw off tyranny, and a country tries to help.
It is another thing altogether, to go around TRYING TO START conflict, and organizing the resistance in another country, in order to try and increase our own defensive posture.
We overthrow democracies to install dictators.... the opposite of what was done in America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWZIR6BIGSQ
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
You mean like we did when we helped dethrone Hussein, and then helped establish a democratic government to elect leaders?
What is driving me insane is not that some people think that we shouldn't have been over there. It's very possible that we should never have been over there in the first place. What is going on though is people are taking their opinions (which may or may not be correct) and then adding an obvious bias in order to sway people.
You might have a valid opinion on our interests in the middle east. I happen to disagree, but that's moot to my point. My point is, no matter what your opinion is, even if it is right, it is wrong to add made up facts in order to sway people to your opinion.
They did try to overthrow Saddam, in 1991, and without outside help they failed.
You have set up a false moral equivalence and have presented the deaths of civilians as being done with the same purpose of the terrorists. This is a dishonest attempt to justify your position when you have no real ground to stand on.
America is not intentionally killing civilians in any country in the same way terrorists killed civilians on 911. There is no moral equivalence and no comparison to be made.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Yup. :thumbsup:
IMAGINE: Being on a plane that morning, and witnessing terrorists taking over this plane, and telling you what they are going to do, and watching them fly the plane right into a building, knowing you are going to die, never to see your loved ones again. Imagine the horror and torture they went through. You can't, but just imagining what they must have heard and felt is a nightmare. And, imagine the people in the buildings, and the terror they felt. There was nothing any of these people did to deserve this.
IMAGINE: Harboring terrorists in your country and seeing them and others pay the price for what they've done. Watch as they warn us about it happening to us again with their videos and statements, and that it is in their plans to do so, and see how as they make these statements how much they hate every soul here, and then look at your children whom they would slay in a heartbeat. All who harbor these know the potential for themselves to be attacked and that other "innocent" persons could be killed also, yet they harbor them anyhow. These who are harboring terrorists bring the consequences for doing so on themselves and others. They then deserve to pay for it.
IMAGINE: One who is an "American" who cannot see the difference between the two when it is so blatantly obvious that one scenario is completely different than the other. It's just what the political correctness agenda wants as an outcome, and this is their "product."
The thing is in 9-11 these people were murdered. In our fighting against another similar attack, or against terrorists abroad it's called killing. But even if one disagrees with that definition, havensdad is still incorrect and out on a broken limb with his politically correct theory he's been indoctrinated into believing. You really cannot help a person who has been a frog in the kettle, rendering such incapable of making a proper judgment.
Last edited by a moderator:
Robert Snow
New Member
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
After the 1991 uprising, Human Rights Watch wrote about the response from govt forces, the sorts of things that would take the starch out of any freedom fighter, if they even survived.
Yeah, cause the fact that we are protecting our interests in another person's country, gives us the right to "accidentally" blow up their kids.
Tell me, how would YOU feel, if China came over here, because some of our people (not our country), blew up one of their buildings? They said they "have to protect their strategic interests"? Decided that a small farming village in north Texas was a group that was "sympathetic" to these people, and so blew it up? Killed 93 people? Then basically said "oops, my bad?"
You would probably say what every other sane person in the world would say....why are you over here in our country, blowing people up, for a CRIME? Its not a war. Afghanistan and Iraq, neither one, declared war on the U.S. A group of men, perpetrated a CRIME.
And no, its not acceptable. We should have found the men, put them on trial in the military courts, and hung them. And then we should have came home. But that is NOT even the stated purpose of us being in those countries anymore (and never was, with Iraq)!
You obviously didn't read ALL the links, did you...
No, its not. Tell me, your a soldier. What would you do if the U.S. got invaded by foreign troops, and while you were fighting them, a large group of the soldiers under your command defected to the enemy camp? They started hanging out with the enemy troops, and were giving them invaluable information that was costing you hundreds and thousands of lives? Tell me, who would YOU be targeting when you attacked their convoy?
Um, these people did not rise up on their own. This was more of our meddling. Did you not read this very crucial sentence?
"The United States government also played a role in encouraging the uprisings"
So you quote me and then ignore my words you quoted? You set up a false moral equivalent comparing apples and oranges. And do not pretend to know what I "would say". You can claim it is not a war if you like. You have the right to be as wrong as you want. I am ok with that.
Apples and oranges. Iraq was an established nation already with a homicidal dictator already intact. You keep talking about protecting "our" best interest when in fact we (the US and OTHER nations) were trying to protect the interests of innocent Iraqis and the rest of the world.
...and I know the next tired line will be "they never found wmd's"
Apples and oranges. Iraq was an established nation already with a homicidal dictator already intact. You keep talking about protecting "our" best interest when in fact we (the US and OTHER nations) were trying to protect the interests of innocent Iraqis and the rest of the world.
...and I know the next tired line will be "they never found wmd's"
No, (although they didn't), my next line is, whose weapons did he use to aquire such monumental power over his people? Who do you think propped Sadaam up IN THE FIRST PLACE? We gave him weapons and support for years, increased his power, and helped him, while ignoring his atrocities. Why? Because it was in OUR strategic interest (we believed...) to do so!
Listen, there were countries that abused their people FAR WORSE (still are, FYI) than Saddam. Why did we get involved their, and not in these other, poor countries? Cause it does not serve the war machine. It does not enrich the greedy people at the top.