The KEY is by the Door Revelation 1:1

Tom

I have read Hendrickson. I picked up on his remarks about the word "signified" in verse 1. Hendricksen writes somewhere in his book: "The Apocalypse is meant to show us that things are not what they seem." Philip Edgecumbe Hughes in the introduction to his commentary on Revelation [His book reads almost like a devotional book.] also points out that much of the language in Revelation is apocalyptic.

I wrote the following on another post:

"The Book of Revelation teaches eternal, theological principles and portrays on a cosmic scale the struggle between good and evil, between the Triune God and Satan, from the incarnation of God the Son until His return in power and glory, the General Resurrection and General Judgment, ending with the New Heavens and New Earth where God will tabernacle with the redeemed of all time."

Sadly Tom you see Revelation fulfilled in 70 AD. I don't believe that does justice to the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Incidentally I agree with many of your comments above.​

 

You make some good points, Tom.

I want to look at the two witnesses in Rev. 11. They are described as "two lampstands" (or candlesticks)and "two olive trees" in v. 4.

In Revelation 1:20 we read Jesus' words: "...and the seven lampstands are the seven churches." Those churches are named in the next chapters. So, there is a case to be made that one of the two witnesses (two lampstands) could represent churches. Why two lampstands? Why not one, five, seven? Do they signify two congregations? Or is this symbolic of "The Church." I don't buy that view, by the way.

Now, another witness, who is two olive trees. Let's check Zechariah 4:2-3. Here's a reference to one lampstand and two olive trees. The two olive trees appear to represent Israel. This is reinforced by Romans 11:17, where Paul speaks of the Romans (as Gentiles) who have been grafted into the olive tree (Israel).

Now, I'm not wedded to this view of the two witnesses. I'd welcome any other views. But I would like to know from scripture why this view won't work.

 

My understanding is that the two witnesses simply represent Christian evangelism. They are described as olive trees because they are filled with the Holy Spirit (Zech 4:6, 11-14) and lampstands because they are sent by the Church. They go out two by two (Luke 10:1) and they witness (Matt 24:14) to the world of its wickedness and the world hates them for it (Rev 11:10). Their witness is authoritative because there are two of them (Deut 19:15).

They witness all through the age from Pentecost until just before the Return of Christ. All that time they cannot be stopped (Rev 11:5) because God will have His message proclaimed all over the earth. Just before Christ's return is Satan's Little Season (Rev 13:6-10; 20:7-9). During this time, open Christian witness will be under such persecution that it will be effectively dead (11:8-9). But very quickly, Christ will return (11:12ff) to the joy of His saints and the despair of His enemies. 'Even so. Come, Lord Jesus!' I think this is roughly in line with Hendriksen's position, though it's a long time since I read him. I offer these views tentatively, and would welcome alternative thoughts.

More Than Conquerors was the book that opened my eyes to eschatology as quite a new Christian. Once I got the idea of 'Progessive Paralellism,' the whole thing seemed to fall into place. I should add that Hendriksen was an Amillennialist and would, I'm sure, have been horrified to think that someone would use his work to argue against a coming physical Return of Christ in which he very plainly believed.

Steve

 

Hendricksen's idea of Progressive Parallelism made sense, particularly when you consider it in light of the text of Revelation. I had read a similar concept though more limited in a commentary on Revelation by Herman Hoekema. There he considered only the parallelism of the seals, the trumpets, and the vials.

The New Geneva Bible, now the Reformation Bible, has a somewhat different breakdown of the parallelism than that of Hendricksen and one I think agrees better with the text of Revelation.

A am of course amillennial [Not a particularly good choice of names but no one has developed a better one.] in a region and denomination where dispensationalism is rampant. In the late 1990's in the midst of all the hype about the turn of the millennium I had the opportunity to teach the Book of Revelation to a Senior Adult Sunday School Class.

Whether the class learned much I cannot say since most were pre-trib rapture and that is all they knew about dispensationalism. I learned much!. Revelation is just that, a wonderful picture of the victory of Jesus Christ over sin and Satan. The message for the "true believer" is "We Win through Jesus Christ, our faith is vindicated."

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In the Book of Revelation:

We see Jesus Christ revealed on a cosmic level, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, whereas in the Gospels we see Jesus Christ revealed primarily on a personal level, the Son of Man, the Suffering Servant, the Lamb of God, and our Saviour.

We see, as no where else in Scripture, the Triune nature of God clearly revealed and emphasized, particularly in the Apostle John’s vision of the throne room of God as recorded in Chapters 4 & 5.

We see the sovereignty of God again clearly revealed and emphasized as no where else in Scripture, in the salvation of His elect, in His providential care over His chosen ones, and in His control of history to achieve His purpose.

We see time after time, in fact through seven different pictures, the triumph of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords over Satan and the dreadful wrath of God meted out to those who continue in rebellion against Him.

We see perhaps more clearly than elsewhere in Scripture the joy unspeakable and full of glory [Ephesians 1:4]. that awaits the Saints of God. As the Apostle Paul writes, paraphrasing the Prophet Isaiah: Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.[1 Corinthians 2:9]

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In his commentary Hughes notes the difficulty in understanding the Revelation. However, he commends the book for the same reason I do writing: "there are numerous passages that are both readily comprehensible and also full of beauty and rich is spiritual truth. .... Its wealth is there to be mined by every believing mind and heart."

 

Yes, I agree as well. It was many years ago that I made the same discovery about the root word "signify-semaino"

semaino has a dual meaning: to mark or to signify/indicate.

According to the discussion in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol 7, pgs 262-265) it is a mark, a sound or visible entity used in conformation of a truth.

What is helpful is usage for this word as found in other NT passages.

John 12

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.​

John 21
18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.​

Acts 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.​

Acts 25:27 For it seemeth to me unreasonable to send a prisoner, and not withal to signify the crimes laid against him.​

2 Thessalonians 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.​

So, its usage does not necessarily mean that the "signifying" is totally divorced in meaning from the ultimate meaning or purely metaphorical although it may be the case.​

The Book of Revelation certainly lends itself to the interpretation of its obvious symbolism(s) yet mingled in with the literal.​

Which leads to the issue of determining the literal from the symbolism.​

e.g. What of the seven churches? Were they actually local churches?
If so, was this book actually sent to be read aloud in these actual local churches? ​

Another fact concerning the literary style of the Book of Revelation is the use of the chiasmus (yes, inspiration does not exclude a literary style).​

chiasmus [ky-AZ-mus] (plural -mi), a figure of speech by which the order of the terms in the first of two parallel clauses is reversed in the second. This may involve a repetition of the same words or just a reversed parallel between two corresponding pairs of ideas … . The figure is especially common in 18th century English poetry, but is also found in prose of all periods. It is named after the Greek letter chi (x), indicating a "criss-cross" arrangement of terms. Adjective: chiastic.

The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Literary Terms, Chris Baldick.

A chiasmus; When you fail to plan, you plan to fail.

Some view the entire Book of Revelation as a chiasmus.

Found online in the Public Domain at: http://www.666beast.net/chiastic.htm

Here is another interesting chiastic site:
http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception-Revelation_prophecy_chiasm_eschatological.html


HankD

 

Contrasts in Revelation

Hank D

If I have heard of chiasmus it was many years ago when I studied literature. In my study of Revelation [Actually I think it was while I was reworking my notes.] I was struck by the many contrasts presented in the Book.


Light and joy contrasted with darkness and despair is a continuing theme in the Book of Revelation.

1. The book opens with the promise of the return [The Second Coming] of Jesus Christ in power and glory followed by John’s vision of the Saviour in His glory. As each letter to the seven churches is read [Chapters 2 & 3] we see the promise of glory for those who persevere in the faith contrasted with chastening of those true believers who have fallen into sin and the judgment promised those who are unregenerate.

2. After the message to the churches we are shown [Chapters 4 & 5], as clearly as human language can express, the glory of the Godhead. In this picture we see revealed and emphasized, more vividly than elsewhere in Scripture, the Triune Nature of God. We also are given a glimpse of the joy unspeakable and full of glory that is in store for those whom the Father has chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4]. The picture reminds us, however, of the infinite price paid for the redemption of the elect To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved [Ephesians 1:6, KJV]. We see the price of that redemption, the Beloved, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, ... a Lamb as it had been slain [Revelation 5:6, KJV].

3. Also in Chapter 5 we are introduced to a book or scroll sealed with seven seals held by the hand of God the Father. The Apostle weeps because no man is found able to open the Book but is comforted that the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof [Revelation 5:5, KJV]. Yet when John turns to look upon the Lion of Judah he sees instead a Lamb as it had been slain[/color][/i].

4. As the Lamb opens each seal in turn [Chapter 6] we are shown, symbolically, events that portray the unfolding of the conflict between good and evil, a conflict which persisted long before the first advent of Jesus Christ. The Book of Revelation reveals in apocolyptic language the conflict that will continue until His return in power and great glory to sit on His White Throne of Judgment [Revelation 20:11-15]. The opening of the first seal pictures the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ as it conquers sin and death. Yet as the three following seals are opened we are shown in vivid contrast that sin and death will persist until the prayers of the Saints under the altar [the fifth seal] are answered and the redeemed who have suffered for the Gospel’s sake are vindicated. And vindicated they are for as the sixth seal is opened we are shown a picture of the last day, the day of judgment, when the unregenerate cry out to the mountains and rocks Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb/color]. [Revelation 6:16, KJV].

5. With the opening of the seals we have seen the suffering that the conflict between good and evil brings, suffering that the Saints must also endure. When the sixth seal is opened we see a picture of the last day and the question: who shall be able to stand? Before the seventh seal is opened God provides an answer. First we are comforted by a picture of the sealing of the Saints on earth, those redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, a seal that is the guarantee of their eternal security. Then we are given a glimpse of what awaits these Saints. We see a great multitude, which no man could number. This multitude, in striking contrast to those in the closing passage of Chapter 6, are in the very presence of God, standing before His throne. They constitute those of the Church, the redeemed of both the Old and New Testaments, who have departed this life and are ever present with the Lord, awaiting the redemption, the resurrection, of their bodies. They are able to stand because they are clothed in white robes, symbolic of the righteousness which is theirs through Jesus Christ. They are before the throne and the Lamb, crying: Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

6. When the seventh seal is opened, all heaven, which has been ringing with praise of God, falls silent about the space half an hour. The silence is absolute, something the mankind has never experienced. This silence is a prelude to what is next revealed to John. An angel casts a censor of fire to the earth and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake [Revelation 8:5, KJV]; then seven angels prepare to sound seven trumpets.

7. As each angel sounds his trumpet in turn God brings forth judgment upon the earth. The terror that is unleashed following the sound of each trumpet stands in stark contrast to the joy of the white robed multitude that worships before the throne. The severity of the first four judgments that fall upon mankind apparently cannot compare to what is yet to come. An angel is sent to announces the woe, woe, woe that is to follow the sounding of the remaining trumpets, woe from which the Saints of God are to be spared. Though spared, the Saints of God see a symbolic picture of the woe that befalls the unregenerate following the sounding of the fifth and sixth trumpets [Chapter 9] and their stubborn refusal to repent.

8. After the sixth angel had sounded his trumpet of judgment we see a damning indictment of the unbelievers:

Revelation 9:20,21, KJV
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

The unbelievers repented not of their sins even under the redemptive judgment of God. It is the lot of these men that they will come under the wrath of God as manifested through outpouring of the seven vials. It is these of which the final Chapter of Revelation states:

Revelation 22:15, KJV
15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

9. Before the sound of the seventh and last trumpet we are comforted by a picture [Chapter 10] of the mighty angel who lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, ......, that there should be time no longer but when the voice of the seventh angel ... shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished [Revelation 10:6, 7, KJV]. The comfort to the Saints that the time is short is accompanied by a reminder, by the experience of the two witnesses [Revelation 11:7-10], that the redeemed, though spared the wrath of God, are not spared the wrath of unregenerate mankind. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever [Revelation 11:15, KJV].

10. Perhaps the most startling contrast presented in the Book of Revelation is that between the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, and Babylon, the Mother of Harlots, the apostate church, and the bride of the antichrist. In the Book of Revelation we see the ultimate and final triumph of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Church over Satan and all who reject the grace of God. Of particular note is the providential care of Jesus Christ over His Church as described in Chapters 2 & 3 and in Chapter 12. In contrast we are shown the destruction of Babylon, the apostate church, in graphic detail in Chapters 17 & 18.

11. Finally, the message of the Book of Revelation is that the Church, the elect of God; those who are accepted in the beloved and regenerated by the Holy Spirit will emerge vindicated and victorous. In contrast, those who reject the gracious offer of salvation, those who choose to dwell in darkness rather than light, those who crave the pleasures of sin for a season rather than the righteousness of God throughout eternity, will be cast into the lake of fire along with Satan

 

Thanks OR.

Yes. Everytime I do a study of the Book of Revelation it is new again.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.​

HankD​

 

IF he has already come though, as per Tom, why is it in there?

 

HankD

The Apostle John lists seven blessings for those reading the Book of Revelation. I am blessed every time I read in it.

 

Whenever it was written it is still valid. I might disagree with some on whosever will.

 

Wait a minute, if "all" scripture has been fulfilled after AD70 (ala full preterism) then Revelation 22:17 is presently part of "all" having been fulfilled.

Therefore, the days of "whosoever will" ended after AD70.


HankD

 

My previous post leads to other questions which have been asked but not answered by full preterism (at least when I asked them).

Why does sin and death still reign over the earth and will sin and death continue on forever?

How will this universe end or will it?


HankD

 

That is a significant question. I have posed a similar one to Tom. According to the Second Law of Thermodynamics the universe is winding down, entropy is increasing.

I have a thermo book by Gordon VanWylen from a university in Michigan. He speculates that God may intercede on occasion and reset entropy. Obviously an old book [50+ years]. Doubt if it could get published today with mention of God. Been a long time since I looked at the book. I believe he was Dutch Reformed. May have been a full-preterist.

 

I agree. IMO, the significance is that the scripture gives the account of the beginning of the material universe (Genesis 1-3).

But if one discounts 2 Peter Chapter 3 and Revelation 21 as something other than the material universe ceasing to exist then there is no account of the end.
Sin and death are present there as is evident today.

Also, if all is fulfilled, then how would anyone in the subsequent centuries after the events of AD70 know that there were/are any promises of God left for them?


HankD

 

Then doesn't it follow that "all" is not fulfilled until the last person is saved and the Temple of livingstones is completed?

1 Peter 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.​

HankD