Have any of your views changed?

[convicted1]

Yes, I'm afraid there will be a lot of us eating heavenly crow. :laugh:

If you eat that, that will make you a cannibal, ya know? :laugh:

 

[Tom Butler]

I don't know what "views" means to the originator of the OP.

If any person on here hasn't learned something from others, and voted that way, that it has never happened, frankly, well, I'll let you guess what that means.

I didn't say I hadn't learned anything. I said my views had not changed. And I don't know what you mean.

The OP (knowing the author via the BB) is merely written with the objective end, that no non-cal has learned a thing from a cal, and that all cal attempts have failed in that endeavor, that is, to change the "views" of non-cals.

I'd say this would be the objective of this thread.

That may have been the point of the thread, but I answered the question as posted. I'm not much into reading subtlety.

 

[preacher4truth]

I didn't say I hadn't learned anything. I said my views had not changed. And I don't know what you mean.



That may have been the point of the thread, but I answered the question as posted. I'm not much into reading subtlety.

Hi Tom,

My post wasn't directed at you personally nor was it written in light of anything you said. I wanted you to be aware of that. My post is more of a general response. I think if we all sat back and thought about it, we all have learned something from someone.

Changed views? Well that's another story altogether.

 

[Crabtownboy]

oh, and what you said wasn't true either. It would be interesting if anyone on here actually believes that God is responsible for our sins and not us. Could you share with us anyone that has actually said that? Or did you just make that up. Again, you post was out of line and not with the OP.

Truthfully this has been said by some members of the board. Also one member gave a link to a John Piper video where he says that God predestined every rape, every murder, ever child beating, etc. that has ever occurred. I have searched but not found that video. I have checked the current members and could not find him as a current member.

Regardless, I believe the folk who make these claims are not really Calvinists ... that is I do not believe Calvin would recognize as true what they are saying that he, Calvin, said.

I did not say they have rejected Christ. That is a totally different topic. I have said that to say that God predestined all and every sin is to make God into a monster. As well, to say he did this for his own glory is an error. It would be like a father breaking his son's arm so he could show how compassionate he was in taking care of that son as the arm healed.

I was quote neutral on Calvinism until I followed a number of threads on this BB. They convinced me that Calvinism, at least as espoused by some here has to be in error.

Also, no one has total understanding. Everyone of us has error in our belief system and God understands.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Crabtownboy]

I have not changed my views since joining the Baptist Board, but about 15 years ago, I underwent a radical re-evaluation of the way we as Baptists present the gospel.

This came as the result of a mission trip to Romania. After observing Romanian Baptists and talking with some of their pastors, I came to question the invitation system, the use (or mis-use) of the Roman Road, and the Sinners' Prayer.

It was a painful process, because I had taken those things for granted. To have to question the way they were abused was unpleasant, to say the least.

Notice that I did not say that they were wrong. It was their mis-use and abuse. I came to believe that this explains why churches have difficulty getting half their members to church on any Sunday.

Excellent post. A little travel gives a big education and, indeed, does make us examine what we have taken for granted in the past. Experiencing another culture teaches that there are different ways that life can be lived and neither is wrong or we may find, to our own sorrow, that we have been wrong about something in the past and must change. This is all a part of maturing and gaining wisdom.

I would like to know more about your experience in Romania.

 

[glfredrick]

I have not changed my views since joining the Baptist Board, but about 15 years ago, I underwent a radical re-evaluation of the way we as Baptists present the gospel.

This came as the result of a mission trip to Romania. After observing Romanian Baptists and talking with some of their pastors, I came to question the invitation system, the use (or mis-use) of the Roman Road, and the Sinners' Prayer.

It was a painful process, because I had taken those things for granted. To have to question the way they were abused was unpleasant, to say the least.

Notice that I did not say that they were wrong. It was their mis-use and abuse. I came to believe that this explains why churches have difficulty getting half their members to church on any Sunday.

I made similar changes from my early church life after salvation.

Once I derived that God was in fact sovereign over salvation I retired most of the anthropologically-centered techiques used to motivate men to action, but which cannot actually save the soul. Action does not equal salvation, or else every Mormon, Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, Christian Scientist, and Branch Davidian would be saved, for their zeal and belief often outshines that of the Baptist.

I now use prayer as my cheif evangelistic tool, and find that when God does the drawing all I have to do is share the kerygma of the gospel as per Scripture.

 

[MB]

Can anyone discuss the doctrines of Jesus Christ and not be changed by it?. Because of debate I've learned that things aren't always as they might seem. I've learned that sincerity doesn't always mean we have it right. I've learned that the gate we all must go through is truly narrow indeed. Just finding it is difficult enough but going through it is another matter.
I've learned that most everyone is different somewhat in there theology. I'm glad we all think differently other wise there would be no exchange.
MB

 

[Van]

How My Views Have Changed

I used to think if I presented evidence from scripture, others would see what I see and agree with me. I know now that scripture means nothing, my fellow posters simply say it means something not said.

 

[preachinjesus]

Few of my views have changed since I started posting here. What has changed, as a result of my interaction with individuals in this forum, are aspects of arguments that have been strengthened.

Having a PhD has, certainly, meant that most of my major views have been settled and fortified for some time now. These categories are not going to change (nor would I consider any major change) since I took excruciating steps to define, refine, and fortify these beliefs. They are vital to my positions and identity.

This doesn't mean that I am averse to challenges and unwilling to engage in conversation. Most of what is discussed around here is (imho) so broad or undefined that I could easily maintain my positions and still offer thoughts that would appease any of the sides without causing harm to my position. This isn't a slam on anyone, just pointing out that often we dwell in roughly undefined categories which do little to effect a substantive conversation.

One thing that has changed (this isn't a belief) is that I am entirely convinced that the pointless dualism between Calvinist and Arminian is a red herring not worth exploring. Often individuals camped out in either of these points fail to see the broader discussion and that there is nuance within the positions so vast you could reasonably have a multiplicity of positions without endangering your own.

Nevertheless, I do enjoy many of these discussions...though would ask the administrators to put a threshold on the number of innane topics that can be posted in a given day.

 

[drfuss]

I used to think if I presented evidence from scripture, others would see what I see and agree with me. I know now that scripture means nothing, my fellow posters simply say it means something not said.

I also learned that a couple years ago here on BB. That is why I no longer participate in debates on here. When it comes to doctrinal issues, people tend to get out of a scripture what they take to it.

 

[jbh28]

I used to think if I presented evidence from scripture, others would see what I see and agree with me. I know now that scripture means nothing, my fellow posters simply say it means something not said.

It's interesting how most have kept this a pretty good conversion. Sadly, posts like this one are hostile towards others. If someone interprets Scripture differently, that doesn't mean that "scripture[sic] means nothing" to him. Maybe you should have said that you have learned that others might interpret the Scripture differently from you. Let's try to keep this civil and leave the prideful comments out. Let's not think that we are perfect interpreters of Scripture.

 

[Winman]

I don't know what "views" means to the originator of the OP.

If any person on here hasn't learned something from others, and voted that way, that it has never happened, frankly, well, I'll let you guess what that means.

Everyone has learned something here, and I'm not talking negative things, positives are included. Let the pugnacious take off from this and express themselves as such.

May I suggest that this isn't what the OP is getting at, but is rather the following instead.

The OP (knowing the author via the BB) is merely written with the objective end, that no non-cal has learned a thing from a cal, and that all cal attempts have failed in that endeavor, that is, to change the "views" of non-cals.

I'd say this would be the objective of this thread.

And you would be wrong. I didn't specify any subject, I left that completely open. This thread doesn't have to be about the Calvinism versus non-Cal view unless that is what you wish to address. It could be on anything whatsoever such as Dispensational versus Covenant theology, Lordship Salvation, Baptism, Preterism, Pre-Mill, Amill, whatever... No one has to post if they don't want to, and you can discuss whatever you choose.

I was simply curious to see if anyone's views or beliefs had been changed as a result of the debates here. It often seems no one ever changes their position,so, I thought I would ask.

 

[jbh28]

And you would be wrong. I didn't specify any subject, I left that completely open. This thread doesn't have to be about the Calvinism versus non-Cal view unless that is what you wish to address. It could be on anything whatsoever such as Dispensational versus Covenant theology, Lordship Salvation, Baptism, Preterism, Pre-Mill, Amill, whatever... No one has to post if they don't want to, and you can discuss whatever you choose.

I was simply curious to see if anyone's views or beliefs had been changed as a result of the debates here. It often seems no one ever changes their position,so, I thought I would ask.

Where would you fall as far as your OP question asks. Have you changed anything?

 

[Winman]

Where would you fall as far as your OP question asks. Have you changed anything?

Not really, although I think I have learned about many subjects. I have learned more about Calvinism than I used to know. I have learned more about Preterism. I don't agree with either, but I have learned why people believe this way.

It seems to me that folks tend to select certain scripture to focus upon.

 

[Tom Butler]

Hi Tom,

My post wasn't directed at you personally nor was it written in light of anything you said. I wanted you to be aware of that. My post is more of a general response. I think if we all sat back and thought about it, we all have learned something from someone.

Changed views? Well that's another story altogether.

I didn't think it was directed at me, and I accepted it as you intended. We're good.

 

[jbh28]

Not really, although I think I have learned about many subjects. I have learned more about Calvinism than I used to know. I have learned more about Preterism. I don't agree with either, but I have learned why people believe this way.

It seems to me that folks tend to select certain scripture to focus upon.

Same here, I've learned a lot from people I don't agree with. Of course some of the people I disagree with are ones you agree with. :laugh:

 

[Mexdeaf]

Some are so stubborn they would never admit if they DID change. It's a Baptist trait, I think.

 

[drfuss]

Some are so stubborn they would never admit if they DID change. It's a Baptist trait, I think.

Let's cut the ministers on here a little slack. Some cannot afford to admit doctrinal changes on here, because it could adversely affect their career. Also, because of career implications, some cannot afford to even admit doctrinal changes to themselves because it could complicate things for them.

For these reasons, I don't expect to convince anyone of doctrinal changes. I participate on BB for information exchange reasons only. No debates.

We are all human.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Let's cut the ministers on here a little slack. Some cannot afford to admit doctrinal changes on here, because it could adversely affect their career. Also, because of career implications, some cannot afford to even admit doctrinal changes to themselves because it could complicate things for them.

For these reasons, I don't expect to convince anyone of doctrinal changes. I participate on BB for information exchange reasons only. No debates.

We are all human.

I understand, I am a minister also, but I prefer to be honest with myself and that requires confessing the change.

 

[Van]

Reply to slander

It's interesting how most have kept this a pretty good conversion. Sadly, posts like this one are hostile towards others. If someone interprets Scripture differently, that doesn't mean that "scripture[sic] means nothing" to him. Maybe you should have said that you have learned that others might interpret the Scripture differently from you. Let's try to keep this civil and leave the prideful comments out. Let's not think that we are perfect interpreters of Scripture.

As demonstrated above, the posters here would rather engage in personal attacks upon those who hold differing views, saying their opponents are driven by pride, ect.

I post a discussion of my understanding of a specific verse and am met with deep theological thoughts such as "you demean God" or "you are mistaken" or "why do you think you are the perfect interpreter of scripture." Whatever the ad hominem of the day might be.