Salvation in Catholic and Baptist Theology

The sacramental view of justification is explicitly condemned by Paul and so the Roman Catholic view is simply wrong and if they are wrong on the sacramental view of justification the entire Roman Catholic soteriology falls with it.

 

Romans 5:1 "Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
We are justified by faith and faith alone. There is no other way of salvation but by faith and faith alone. There never has been.

 

And we do know what opinions are like now don't we! :laugh:

 

You just hit the nail directly on the head! If you truly understood regeneration you would KNOW it is of the heart, the spirit. One who is born of God CANNOT "change their mind". It has already been changed, converted, along with the heart, their spirit. One is a NEW creation in Christ. There is no such thing as "changing one's mind" once saved, regenerated, converted.

 

So we have freedom to choose before we are regenerated but not after. So God, who gives us freedom as an inherent part of His nature, takes away that freedom once we accept salvation.

I don't believe this for a second.

 

That is because you do not believe Jesus Christ - Jn. 6:39

That is because you do not believe Paul - Philip. 1:6

That is because you do not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ but a gospel of works or an "accursed" gospel.

 

Talk about judging people. So are you telling us that you believe the only time you have freedom of Choice is before your regeneration? Ha! Calvin would not have agreed. The only people who had choice according to reformed theology is Adam and Eve and Jesus. Apart from that no one has a choice. God regenerates a man then that man is indubed with irrisistable grace in which he can do no other than choose God. Those not regenerate will stay in their sin because they are not elect.

 

You are speculating in the right way. Read Romans 7:14-25 and Galatians 5:16-25. Paul is describing himself as born again child of God who coexists with two natures. The fallen nature or indwelling sin abides still in "the flesh" and that is precisely why the flesh MUST physically die or be transformed at the coming of Christ because the law or principle of corruption is still at work in "my members."

However, in contrast to the law of sin in "my members" or "the flesh" is the "inward man" who delights in the Law of God. This Law of God is the "law of my mind" that is at war with the "law in my members" and "I" is the battle ground or what each law seeks to control.

This is the Christian battle within. This daily battle is not about winning entrance to heaven as the war has already been won by Jesus Christ and heaven obtained. This daily battle is about EXPERIENTIAL VICTORY over the reign of death which wars against the soul by the power of indwelling sin in my members. This is the daily battle we fight to make our daily life count for the glory of God, for spiritual growth, to experience salvation that we have been given freely. This is the daily battle we fight to experience assurance, joy, and other fruit of the Spirit. This daily battle is fought and won but one way and that is by submitting to the power of the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 8:1-27). This how a child of God is transformed from "glory to glory" by the Spirit of God (2 Cor. 3:18).

This is how we redeem the time (Eph. 5:17) and this is what it means to be "filled with the Spirit" (Eph. 5:18) and this is what it means to "walk in the Spirit" and not after the flesh (Gal. 5:16,25).

This is what Paul is talking about in Philippians 3:12-15.

When we fail to win a daily skirmish with indwelling sin we confess our sins and he is faithful and just to forgive us (1 Jn. 1:7) and forgetting the past we take up the battle a new and press on toward the mark (Philip. 3:12-15).

When a child of God continues to walk after the flesh he EXPERIENCES chastening by God (Heb. 12:5-10) loss of joy, loss of fellowship, loss rewards, loss of usefulness, wasted time that can never be regained but not loss of salvation (1 Cor. 3:14-15).

Spiritual growth is determined by how consistent we are in winning daily battles. Ephesians 6:12-18 provides us the armour of God to daily fight this battle.

Our life and works do not determine entrance into heaven as Christ's life and works have determined that and that is precisely why Christ declares that not one single person that the Father has given him will fail to come to him and not one single person who comes to him will he lose but that person shall be raised up to eternal life.

Jn. 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

You understand exactly where I am coming from doctrinally. If a person claims that a true child of God can become lost there is but one way that is possible and that is if their own works determine that and thus that is a gospel of salvation ultimately determined by works. Hence, only a person who believes in justification by works makes that kind of judgement and that is precisely the one who preaches the "accursed" gospel of justification by works.

No, I am not telling you that the only time you can make a choice is before regeneration. I am simply saying that true children of God are kept through faith (which is of grace) BY THE POWER OF GOD so that it is God who works in them both TO WILL and to DO of His glood pleasure and that is why they NEVER make that choice because God has forever changed their WANT TO!

 

In the true child of God, regeneration has removed indwelling sin from controlling the inclination of the human will and the regenerated inward man now controls the inclination BUT IS WITHOUT POWER to enforce the inclination. Only the indwelling Spirit of God has power to enable the inclination of the inward man to express itself in the life of the believer. The redeemed "I" stands between this "inward" or "new man" and the outer or old man which the old man controls - the flesh, my members, the body.

In Romans 7:14-25 you will notice that the human will is ALWAYS disposed to choose the things of God but it does not have POWER in and of itself to enable the will to overcome indwelling sin:

Rom. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

The redeemed will has been inclined to obey God because of the new regenerated heart or inward man which determines the inclination of the will. However, the inward man is overpowered by indwelling sin because although the inward man is always willing to obey God it has no POWER to overrule the power of indwellling sin. Hence, in every contest between the inward and outward man the outward man ALWAYS wins but despite of the CONTINUING RESISTANCE of the inward man:

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Note that even when Paul is sinning he is sinning, it is sin overpowering his will - "If I do that WHICH I WOULD NOT...it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me"

The new inward man NEVER chooses to reject Jesus Christ even under the power of indwelling sin.

The new inward man NEVER has power to overcome indwelling sin.

The POWER to overcome indwelling sin is found only in the INDWELLING SPIRIT of God - Romans 8:10-13

So the inward man is NEVER inclined to disobey God or reject Christ even when overpowered by indwelling sin.

1 Jn. 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

I didn't see Peter mention the Catholic Church in his remarks. That's an inference that you are making and one that could be directed against any church or denomination.

Complete hogwash!
If it is blasphemous to "...call any one on earth 'father'..." then there were plenty of blasphemous Christians in the Bible. First, the imperative "call no man father" does not apply to one’s biological father. It also doesn’t exclude calling one’s ancestors "father," as is shown in Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to "our father Abraham," or at Stephens stoning he declares in Acts 7 "Then said the high priest, Are these things so? 2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; “ -- here he addresses his audience, some of whom were as “fathers”!

WM

 

No, what I am saying is that regeneration forever changes the inclination of the will so that it FOREVER is inclined to righteousness. The reason true children of God sin is because the inclination of the inward man is without power to overcome the power of indwelling sin. However, even when indwelling sin overpowers the will to sin it is inspite of continued resistance by the inward man:

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

In verse 17 Paul is not denying responsibility for sinning. He is merely pointing out from whence within him sin arises. It does not arise from the new inward man or the inclination of His will. It arises from the power of indwelling sin that overpowers his inclination to do righteousness but even when it over powers his inclination to do righteousness it does NOT CHANGE THAT INWARD INCLINATION to do righteous because he sins MORE THAN HE WANTS TO or in his words "WHAT I HATE that I do."

It is not a problem of willingness to do right - "for to will is present with me" but it is a problem of POWER to enforce his desires to do right "but how to perform that which is good I FIND NOT."

He does not find the power in the inward man or himself. He finds it in the power of the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 8:1-27). However, even in sin the redeemed man HATES what he is doing but finds himself doing it because he has relied upon his own power to overcome sin and thus yeilded to indwelling power of sin.

 

You don't hear anyone calling their biological father "holy" father! There is but only one father in the entire Bible addressed "holy" father and that is God the Father. Hence, it is blasphemous to call the Pope "holy" father. He is usurping a title that the Bible ONLY gives to God.

 

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that you are a complex being and there is more to you than singleness.

There is what Paul refers to as "I" throughout this passage in distinction between "my members" and "the inward man".

Willful sin originates in only one of these three aspects - "it is no more I that do it but sin which dwelleth in me...that is in my flesh"

That is where it originates within you but how does it originate within you? Glad you asked!

It originates when "I" in connection with the unchangable inclination to do good after the "inward man" attempt to resist sin IN MY OWN POWER.

Whenever "I" attempt to resist indwelling sin by my OWN POWER "I" always lose and the power of indwelling sin ALWAYS wins.

However, does that mean "I" love to willfully sin even WHEN "I" am sinning? No!

"That which I HATE that I do"

The "I" will never LOVE sin but sins MORE THAN I WANT TO. The "I" will NEVER be inclined to sin:

"to will is present with me but HOW to perform that which is good I find not"

Hence, the "I" will NEVER EVER choose to reject Christ in spite of yeilding to sin by failure to resist sin in the power of the Indwelling Spirit of God.

God has created the inward man in TRUE HOLINESS and RIGHTEOUSNESS (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) and the Holy Spirit indwells that aspect of our nature and so the inclination and power to do righteousness permenantly remains within the child of God so that what is born of God (inward man) cannot sin because of the indwelling seed (I Jn. 3:9). Sin originates from indwelling sin in my member, my flesh and my flesh has not been born of God.

 

You yourself admit right here that the warning from the Paul could be about any church or denomination! The Catholic Church is full of falseness, doing everything it can to do the opposite of what God commands.

I have already explained what you think you are explaining. Abraham was not among these Christian brothers and sisters. Jesus was speaking to the sisters and brothers in Christ; this is about our spiritual sisters and brothers in Christ, not physical brothers and sisters in Christ.
As I said before, it should make you cringe to call the Catholic leader “Holy Father.” What blasphemy that you are a part of, giving sinful man the name reserved for God, putting that man in long flowing robes, taking the seat of most importance, people even kissing his feet! How is it that you do not see the evil in all this? I would like to help expose it to you.