War crimes? Really?

[Gina B]

http://news.yahoo.com/perry-urges-no-criminal-charges-over-marines-video-170256198.html

This news story doesn't mention it, but another I read spoke of these Marines possibly being charged with war crimes. According to the news, their actions are "as bad as it gets."

Now I'm not going to sit here and say what they did was just fine, but I AM going to say "Sorry they did that, it's done, now move on."

Maybe it was juvenile. Maybe it was petty. And maybe being expected to be 100% patriotic even when it means shooting other humans means that some people cope with the mental harshness of it all by desensitizing themselves or disassociating from the reality of it so they can CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR THE SAME PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING THEY SHOULD BE PUNISHED.

I just can't believe any American would have the nerve to sit behind their comfy desk in their safe little office and decide that these men should be given the harshest punishment under the sun for this. My mind can't conceive of the thinking behind that.

Give 'em metals for not TOTALLY cracking under the severe strain.
Thank them.
Have someone else who has been there tell them they understand the stress, and offer them other ways of coping with it that won't make our country look silly. Have them make a simple public apology to ease the ridiculous attempts to make this into something major and be done with it. It's hard enough to keep morale up among troops without them living in fear that their own country sides with the enemy if they happen to have a relatively minor lapse of judgment after they do things that most of us couldn't do if our lives depended on it and under stress that most Americans cannot fathom. Even people who defend themselves from just one burglar or rapist end up needing all kinds of therapy. These guys are out there in a foreign country where they live under the fear and threat of being killed every second of the day and they still do it. Sure, there are others who handle it different, or what would be considered better by some people, but not everyone deals with things the same way. (and maybe the ones who handle it do have negative coping skills that we just don't see, but the answer is to provide them help, not condemnation when we discover negative coping skills are being used)

Especially considering the source of the major complaints. WHAT did they do to OUR men? How did the other side treat their dead bodies? Do I remember wrong when I flash to images of them being dragged through streets and hung from bridges? Some suffering slow, torturous, video-taped deaths in the name of that country's infamous religion, then they use that same religion to claim that their religion calls for respect for dead bodies? The one that has women being beaten and stoned to death in the streets? The one that thinks exploding women and children is a good thing? These are the same people screaming foul?

And we're siding with THEM?

Why?

Someone who believes these Marines should be guilty of war crimes and punished to the highest extent, get over here and explain this to me please. Tell me why you think like that. I've read comments on sites from others who claim they have been in the same situation (dunno what to believe on internet comments) and say that these particular men are a disgrace. So I'm especially interested in someone who has been there in that situation and had to take lives. I want to know how you feel about what these men did and why. Help me understand why you think that way.

 

[billwald]

Boggles my mind that anyone, even Marines, would screw up and then brag about it in the web.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Here you go, from someone who is there -

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1787356&postcount=2

 

[Gina B]

Thank you C4K. I checked the news forum to make sure it wasn't here but hadn't thought to look under politics. If he doesn't mosey on over here sometime soon, I'll go talk to him. I definitely would appreciate a deeper explanation of his logic than what is posted.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Thank you C4K. I checked the news forum to make sure it wasn't here but hadn't thought to look under politics. If he doesn't mosey on over here sometime soon, I'll go talk to him. I definitely would appreciate a deeper explanation of his logic than what is posted.

I've not been there, but here is my take. We lose the battle when we let our standards of right and wrong be set by the enemy. We are not them, we don't act like they are. These were American Marines and American marines and soldiers and seamen and airmen don't act in a way that shames their country. When they do they get fully punished.

 

[mandym]

As wrong as it is it does not reach the level of war crimes or dishonorable discharge. Or in fact any discharge at all. They should receive punishment under article 15 of the UCMJ and then everyone move on and quit buying into the PR scheme of the enemy. good grief.

 

[freeatlast]

What these men did was wrong, plain and simple, but it is not a war crime nor should they get medals. :BangHead: Also I do not agree that they should be discharged by force.
Because of this act they have dishonored their country, their branch of service, and themselves I think that the person who was in charge should lose two rank with a reprimand letter in his file never being able to advance in rank again. The rest should have reprimand letters in their file and never be allowed to advance in rank and all should be removed from serving in any combat situation and none of them allowed to re-inlist at the end of their term, but all should have to remain and finish their term, not in combat, or if they want to take a dishonorable discharge that should be accepted.

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[Christos doulos]

We are not them, we don't act like they are. These were American Marines and American marines and soldiers and seamen and airmen don't act in a way that shames their country. When they do they get fully punished.

Who is we or them? sinners?

These marines are heathens and act as heathens act-no more and no less. Now if you want to hold them to military standard (if there is such a thing) by dishonorably discharging them, then fine, but charging them with war crimes is going over the top.

I think Americans need to come off their high horse a bit.

 

[Don]

While our enemy doesn't care about it, we abide by the Geneva Convention, where we agreed to treat our enemy with respect.

There was a speech at West Point once that mentioned "duty, honor, country"; these Marines did not do this thing out of a sense of duty, nor country; nor were these actions honorable. They showed no respect to the enemy, who were men just like them, with families, wives, parents, sons and daughters; they showed no respect to the Marine Corps, which--like all branches are required to do--taught them about the Geneva Convention and how they're supposed to act in war (in a nutshell: don't become animals, don't let the baser nature of humanity take over, don't be evil); nor did they show any respect to their country that agreed to those "rules of conduct." Those young men have given to the world an example of every American, even if that example isn't true.

And whether the enemy follows the rules of conduct or not has no bearing on whether I follow them or not. It is our honor, our dignity, our humanity that is in question. Just because they choose to act like animals and be evil does not make it acceptable for us to do the same.

Hopefully that provides somewhat of an explanation of the seriousness of what they did. That said, I agree with everyone else: court-martial and discharge. However, what I believe and fear will happen is that these young men will be made examples of, as a way for our nation's leadership to "apologize" to the world.

 

[Salty]

What these men did was wrong, plain and simple, but it is not a war crime nor should they get medals. :BangHead: Also I do not agree that they should be discharged by force.
Because of this act they have dishonored their country, their branch of service, and themselves I think that the person who was in charge should lose two rank with a reprimand letter in his file never being able to advance in rank again. The rest should have reprimand letters in their file and never be allowed to advance in rank and all should be removed from serving in any combat situation and none of them allowed to re-inlist at the end of their term, but all should have to remain and finish their term, not in combat, or if they want to take a dishonorable discharge that should be accepted.

Free, your suggestions simply show your ignorance of military justice and policies.

My recommendation:
Field Grade Article 15 (similar to a misdemeanor)
Letter of reprimand (Bn Cdr)
Removal from promotion list - if applicable
Fine of $250 x 6 months
Extra duty 45 days
Restriction 45 days
Reassigned to non-combat zone

In addition their next Fitness Report will presumably be scored below average - which would affect re-enlistment potential. In addition their Re-code would be lower as well as as the SPD code.

In the US Army, you could have a score of 85% - but that would put you in the bottom 40% of soldiers. The higher the rank, the higher % you need on your EER to remain in the service. I suspect the USMC has similar policies


Salty
SFC
NY Guard, Ret

 

[mont974x4]

Justice would demand punishment. However, it would also demand a punishment that fits the crime. I would suggest a company grade article 15 would suffice.

A period of non-combat duty would simply be good policy. Too much time in the AO can have detrimental impacts on anybodies judgment. It would be good for these Marines, the people they serve with, and the locals to have them spent some time in the rear. Admittedly, for Marines, that is a punishment in itself.

 

[freeatlast]

Free, your suggestions simply show your ignorance of military justice and policies.

My recommendation:
Field Grade Article 15 (similar to a misdemeanor)
Letter of reprimand (Bn Cdr)
Removal from promotion list - if applicable
Fine of $250 x 6 months
Extra duty 45 days
Restriction 45 days
Reassigned to non-combat zone

In addition their next Fitness Report will presumably be scored below average - which would affect re-enlistment potential. In addition their Re-code would be lower as well as as the SPD code.

In the US Army, you could have a score of 85% - but that would put you in the bottom 40% of soldiers. The higher the rank, the higher % you need on your EER to remain in the service. I suspect the USMC has similar policies


Salty
SFC
NY Guard, Ret

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]Salty that is almost exactly what I stated although in different terms. Also I could care less what or how the military states it as the military is totally out of control just like the rest of the country. This is the reason that I have stated over and over that these men and women who return home have absolutely no business in civilian police work.
I would add that although the military is covering this kind of thing up as best it can this kind of behavior is not uncommon. All one has to do is go to YouTube and find videos that our own military people have made of their undisciplined actions to see what they have been doing in these countries. It is alarming.
I watched a video of some of our solders in some kind of military truck running through the streets of Bagdad during peak hour traffic smashing into vehicles like bumper cars all the while these guys laughing and having a good time. I am sure someone from the military can justify it in some manner.
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[Gina B]

That's part of what really gets me, when a behavior happens pretty often and suddenly, someone is chosen to be made an example of.

Reminds me of a recent incident in Oklahoma with an ambulance driver. He came to an intersection, a car crossing didn't pull over and stopped, the driver of the car was killed in the crash.

The ambulance driver lost his job and it was all over the news that policy says that ambulance drivers cannot go more than ten miles over the speed limit.

It is rare to see them going only ten miles over in an emergency and quite frankly, I don't want them to. Other drivers are saying "hey, we NEVER follow that and nobody ever gets punished because when someone's life is on the line, seconds count."

And I repeatedly see people not pulling over for them or not moving over and it makes me so mad.

But this particular driver, because the other person didn't follow the rules and pull over and because the driver was not following a policy that hardly anyone follows, he's being made an example of.

So now when Gramma stops breathing, don't expect an ambulance to get there anytime soon. Police enforcement out here is rather rare, so if an ambulance doesn't go ten miles over the speed limit, it'll probably take longer to get there than it would for you to drive her to the hospital yourself since they'll have to be more careful since most people on the road will be driving faster than the ambulance. You're better off taking the slight chance of a ticket and getting her to the hospital yourself.

If one is only going to enforce rules if the wrong people find out they're being broken, maybe the rules need to be re-evaluated and for sure, don't scream and jump up and down over the one when you haven't done it over the others. It's nothing short of exploiting the person for the sake of making someone else look better and means nothing because it wasn't done out of honest concern, it was only done to appease others.

 

[Salty]

...[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]Also I could care less what or how the military states it as the military is totally out of control just like the rest of the country. ...[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

Let me get this straight - you don't care how the military handles its affairs, but then you complain they are out of control ?

 

[Don]

[SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]Salty that is almost exactly what I stated although in different terms. Also I could care less what or how the military states it as the military is totally out of control just like the rest of the country. This is the reason that I have stated over and over that these men and women who return home have absolutely no business in civilian police work.
I would add that although the military is covering this kind of thing up as best it can this kind of behavior is not uncommon. All one has to do is go to YouTube and find videos that our own military people have made of their undisciplined actions to see what they have been doing in these countries. It is alarming.
I watched a video of some of our solders in some kind of military truck running through the streets of Bagdad during peak hour traffic smashing into vehicles like bumper cars all the while these guys laughing and having a good time. I am sure someone from the military can justify it in some manner.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

The only "justification" needed is that you don't know what you're talking about. For example, you speak of a military vehicle rolling through Baghdad; they don't travel alone. Especially in Baghdad. In other words, there was no cover up; there were a minimum of two vehicles, more likely four, that were fully aware of what the other vehicles were doing...because they have explicit instructions to not let any civilian vehicles break the integrity of their convoy. No one wants a civilian vehicle to stop in front of them, cutting them off from the rest of the convoy. Secondly, the civilian populace is warned that American convoys are not to be interfered with. Along with notifications through local agencies, signs are placed on the vehicles in local dialects, warning civilians to stay away from the military vehicles. Civilians whose vehicles are damaged because they ignored these notifications, can submit through local offices for compensation of damages (and often receive it).

A week before I left Afghanistan, two military members got into an armored vehicle and drove off into downtown Kabul. I never heard what the exact situation was. The two bodies were found a month later. While I mourn their loss, they violated standing rules about traveling alone; and the only way they could have been stopped was by not ramming other vehicles, and yes, running over civilians. They didn't do all they could to survive.

You watch videos and make judgments, but you have no knowledge to properly put those videos in context. You continue to make judgments about the military, without actually knowing anything more about the military than what you want to believe. You talk about military members being brainwashed; but brainwashing is an extension of belief and self-delusion. Woody, I, and others speak from experience; you speak only from your belief of what you have deluded yourself into thinking the situation is. Your belief is without foundation, as has been proven many times; but you hold on to that belief.

Before you call anyone else brainwashed, pull the beam from your own eye.

 

[mont974x4]

The only "justification" needed is that you don't know what you're talking about. For example, you speak of a military vehicle rolling through Baghdad; they don't travel alone. Especially in Baghdad. In other words, there was no cover up; there were a minimum of two vehicles, more likely four, that were fully aware of what the other vehicles were doing...because they have explicit instructions to not let any civilian vehicles break the integrity of their convoy. No one wants a civilian vehicle to stop in front of them, cutting them off from the rest of the convoy. Secondly, the civilian populace is warned that American convoys are not to be interfered with. Along with notifications through local agencies, signs are placed on the vehicles in local dialects, warning civilians to stay away from the military vehicles. Civilians whose vehicles are damaged because they ignored these notifications, can submit through local offices for compensation of damages (and often receive it).

A week before I left Afghanistan, two military members got into an armored vehicle and drove off into downtown Kabul. I never heard what the exact situation was. The two bodies were found a month later. While I mourn their loss, they violated standing rules about traveling alone; and the only way they could have been stopped was by not ramming other vehicles, and yes, running over civilians. They didn't do all they could to survive.

You watch videos and make judgments, but you have no knowledge to properly put those videos in context. You continue to make judgments about the military, without actually knowing anything more about the military than what you want to believe. You talk about military members being brainwashed; but brainwashing is an extension of belief and self-delusion. Woody, I, and others speak from experience; you speak only from your belief of what you have deluded yourself into thinking the situation is. Your belief is without foundation, as has been proven many times; but you hold on to that belief.

Before you call anyone else brainwashed, pull the beam from your own eye.

Brother,
Those who have never been there simply cannot know.

 

[freeatlast]

The only "justification" needed is that you don't know what you're talking about. For example, you speak of a military vehicle rolling through Baghdad; they don't travel alone. Especially in Baghdad. In other words, there was no cover up; there were a minimum of two vehicles, more likely four, that were fully aware of what the other vehicles were doing...because they have explicit instructions to not let any civilian vehicles break the integrity of their convoy. No one wants a civilian vehicle to stop in front of them, cutting them off from the rest of the convoy. Secondly, the civilian populace is warned that American convoys are not to be interfered with. Along with notifications through local agencies, signs are placed on the vehicles in local dialects, warning civilians to stay away from the military vehicles. Civilians whose vehicles are damaged because they ignored these notifications, can submit through local offices for compensation of damages (and often receive it).

A week before I left Afghanistan, two military members got into an armored vehicle and drove off into downtown Kabul. I never heard what the exact situation was. The two bodies were found a month later. While I mourn their loss, they violated standing rules about traveling alone; and the only way they could have been stopped was by not ramming other vehicles, and yes, running over civilians. They didn't do all they could to survive.

You watch videos and make judgments, but you have no knowledge to properly put those videos in context. You continue to make judgments about the military, without actually knowing anything more about the military than what you want to believe. You talk about military members being brainwashed; but brainwashing is an extension of belief and self-delusion. Woody, I, and others speak from experience; you speak only from your belief of what you have deluded yourself into thinking the situation is. Your belief is without foundation, as has been proven many times; but you hold on to that belief.

Before you call anyone else brainwashed, pull the beam from your own eye.

Don you would not believe it if you were riding in the vehicle. You deny the truth about what is happening in the military every opportunity possible. It is people like you that will bring the destruction of this nation just like under every other nation that has fallen.

 

[freeatlast]

Let me get this straight - you don't care how the military handles its affairs, but then you complain they are out of control ?

Salty I doubt you have ever gotten anything straight in your life so why now? Seeking such just continues to confuse you.

 

[Don]

Don you would not believe it if you were riding in the vehicle. You deny the truth about what is happening in the military every opportunity possible. It is people like you that will bring the destruction of this nation just like under every other nation that has fallen.

Your phrasing is incorrect; I didn't deny anything. If anything, I reinforced the concept that military members are ramming civilian vehicles, and then I explained why. It's your choice to accept that explanation or not.

 

[freeatlast]

Your phrasing is incorrect; I didn't deny anything. If anything, I reinforced the concept that military members are ramming civilian vehicles, and then I explained why. It's your choice to accept that explanation or not.

An excuse is nothing but a denial.