Romans 7:14-25

[Moriah]

Well...let's see how you.... being sinless....post to edify the brethren:

No sin or lack of love here...:laugh::laugh::laugh:

laugh laugh laugh laugh. You and your silly smileys and the mocking you do is loving?

Answer the question.

Here it is again:

This is how a Christian and Calvinist discussion goes:

Christian: Hear the message, believe, and be saved.
Calvinists: They cannot believe until after they are saved.
Christian: Cornelius believed in God before he heard the message that saves.
Calvinists: Cornelius believed because he was already saved, and he was already saved before he heard the message.
Christian: But it is called the message that saves.
Calvinists: They were saved before they heard the message, and even before the creation of the world.
Christian: Then why does God tell us to repent before we perish?
Calvinist:

What say you Calvinist? What is your next false answer?

 

[Iconoclast]

laugh laugh laugh laugh.

You and your silly smileys and the mocking you do is loving?

Well Moriah...I just am following your sinless example,,,as you come in here and try to speak down to us.

Answer the question.

Here it is again:

This is how a Christian and Calvinist discussion goes:

Calvinists are christians.....so you start with error.

Christian: Hear the message, believe, and be saved.


Calvinists: They cannot believe until after they are saved.

calvinists preach the gospel to all men,every where

Christian: Cornelius believed in God before he heard the message that saves.

Cornelius was a proselyte...an OT believer

Calvinists: Cornelius believed because he was already saved, and he was already saved before he heard the message

.

"]Cornelius was a proselyte...an OT believer....ot belevers needed to come in to the nt

Calvinists: They were saved before they heard the message, and even before the creation of the world

.

All who are going to be saved...were given to Jesus as lost and guilty sinners...before the world was...he comes to seek and save them...all
They are elected by God...They are saved by God

Christian: Then why does God tell us to repent before we perish?

Calvinist:

What say you Calvinist? What is your next false answer?

If they do not repent and believe..they will perish:thumbs:

 

[Moriah]

If they do not repent and believe..they will perish:thumbs:

According to Calvinists, ONLY THOSE ALREADY SAVED CAN REPENT, SO ANSWER HOW THEN COULD THEY PERISH? God would not tell people to repent our perish if He made them incapable of repenting!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Excellent point Moriah.:thumbs:

 

[Moriah]

Excellent point Moriah.:thumbs:

Thank you so much for blessing me with this encouragement.

 

[Iconoclast]

According to Calvinists, ONLY THOSE ALREADY SAVED CAN REPENT, SO ANSWER HOW THEN COULD THEY PERISH? God would not tell people to repent our perish if He made them incapable of repenting!

this is what we believe

Chapter 15: Of Repentance Unto Life and Salvation
1._____ Such of the elect as are converted at riper years, having sometime lived in the state of nature, and therein served divers lusts and pleasures, God in their effectual calling giveth them repentance unto life. ( Titus 3:2-5 )
2._____ Whereas there is none that doth good and sinneth not, and the best of men may, through the power and deceitfulness of their corruption dwelling in them, with the prevalency of temptation, fall into great sins and provocations; God hath, in the covenant of grace, mercifully provided that believers so sinning and falling be renewed through repentance unto salvation.
( Ecclesiastes 7:20; Luke 22:31, 32 )

3._____ This saving repentance is an evangelical grace, whereby a person, being by the Holy Spirit made sensible of the manifold evils of his sin, doth, by faith in Christ, humble himself for it with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrency, praying for pardon and strength of grace, with a purpose and endeavour, by supplies of the Spirit, to walk before God unto all well-pleasing in all things.
( Zechariah 12:10; Acts 11:18; Ezekiel 36:31; 2 Corinthians 7:11; Psalms 119:6; Psalms 119:128 )

4._____ As repentance is to be continued through the whole course of our lives, upon the account of the body of death, and the motions thereof, so it is every man's duty to repent of his particular known sins particularly.
( Luke 19:8; 1 Timothy 1:13, 15 )

5._____ Such is the provision which God hath made through Christ in the covenant of grace for the preservation of believers unto salvation; that although there is no sin so small but it deserves damnation; yet there is no sin so great that it shall bring damnation on them that repent; which makes the constant preaching of repentance necessary.
( Romans 6:23; Isaiah 1:16-18 Isaiah 55:7 )


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Moriah]

this is what we believe

I know what you believe, and it is false.

 

[Iconoclast]

I know what you believe, and it is false.

You do not know what you do not know....and you cannot answer anything scripturally.......It seems as if you are part of this little group who all are sitting under a false teacher....Do you go to the same church as these others?
Why do you not answer? I think we see what might be happening here....
Post your church website....so we can see how the sinless believe:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

According to Calvinists, ONLY THOSE ALREADY SAVED CAN REPENT, SO ANSWER HOW THEN COULD THEY PERISH? God would not tell people to repent our perish if He made them incapable of repenting!

This kind of post shows you have no clue what you are talking about.
It does not even make any sense...I explained that to you last week.

 

[Moriah]

This kind of post shows you have no clue what you are talking about.
It does not even make any sense...I explained that to you last week.

Iconoclast,
You are being deceitful here when you post your beliefs AND LEAVE OUT THE CALVINISTS PARTS. You were speaking of the saved, but you left out the part about how you believe you were saved, and that is by being born first BEFORE YOU BELIEVED. None of us here who know the Truth falls for your tactics.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast,
You are being deceitful here when you post your beliefs AND LEAVE OUT THE CALVINISTS PARTS. You were speaking of the saved, but you left out the part about how you believe you were saved, and that is by being born first BEFORE YOU BELIEVED. None of us here who know the Truth falls for your tactics.

No...you just do not understand it when you see it;
Chapter 14: Of Saving Faith
1._____ The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word; by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened. ( 2 Corinthians 4:13; Ephesians 2:8; Romans 10:14, 17; Luke 17:5; 1 Peter 2:2; Acts 20:32 )
2._____ By this faith a Christian believeth to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word for the authority of God himself, and also apprehendeth an excellency therein above all other writings and all things in the world, as it bears forth the glory of God in his attributes, the excellency of Christ in his nature and offices, and the power and fullness of the Holy Spirit in his workings and operations: and so is enabled to cast his soul upon the truth thus believed; and also acteth differently upon that which each particular passage thereof containeth; yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come; but the principal acts of saving faith have immediate relation to Christ, accepting, receiving, and resting upon him alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.
( Acts 24:14; Psalms 27:7-10; Psalms 119:72; 2 Timothy 1:12; John 14:14; Isaiah 66:2; Hebrews 11:13; John 1:12; Acts 16:31; Galatians 2:20; Acts 15:11 )

3._____ This faith, although it be different in degrees, and may be weak or strong, yet it is in the least degree of it different in the kind or nature of it, as is all other saving grace, from the faith and common grace of temporary believers; and therefore, though it may be many times assailed and weakened, yet it gets the victory, growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance through Christ, who is both the author and finisher of our faith.
( Hebrews 5:13, 14; Matthew 6:30; Romans 4:19, 20; 2 Peter 1:1; Ephesians 6:16; 1 John 5:4, 5; Hebrews 6:11, 12; Colossians 2:2; Hebrews 12:2 )

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast,
You are being deceitful here when you post your beliefs AND LEAVE OUT THE CALVINISTS PARTS. You were speaking of the saved, but you left out the part about how you believe you were saved, and that is by being born first BEFORE YOU BELIEVED. None of us here who know the Truth falls for your tactics.

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

...............................................

 

[preacher4truth]

None of us here who know the Truth...

Which doesn't include you which is why he is giving you truth now.

 

[Moriah]

Iconoclast and all Calvinists trade the truth of God for a lie. They believe in man's assumptions.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast and all Calvinists trade the truth of God for a lie. They believe in man's assumptions.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

As I said earlier.....new birth is required to understand the truth of God...

Come back when you can work through the last two posts...and be prepared to discuss it biblically...your ungodly accuasations are getting old and make you sound as one to be pitied...maybe consider finding a church that believes the scripture...because the "teaching" and ideas you are getting now....are not getting it done.

 

[Romans7man]

Those who teach living above sin must interpret this passage by Paul to speaking of Paul as a lost religious man.

Those who deny eternal security of the believer must interpret this passage to be speaking of Paul as alost religous man.

However, this passage speaks directly of the saved man's struggle with sin for many contextual reasons.

1. The description of the lost man and sin is found in Romans 1:18-3:23

2. This descrption is part of the answer of the question in Romans 6:1 concerning a saved man and sin:

Roman 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

The answer of this question falls under the same repeated question:

a. "Know ye not" - Rom. 6:2-15
b. "Know ye not" - Rom. 6:16-23
c. "Know ye not" - Rom. 7:1-8:13

The question in Romans 6:1 concludes with the following answer:

Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


3. There is a change from the past tense in Romans 7:5-13 to the present tense Romans 7:14-25


4. The man in Romans 7:14-25 "hates" sin and "delights" in the law of God in direct contradiction to the lost man described by Christ in John 3:19-20 and the carnal mind in Romans 8:7.

Rom. 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Rom. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

5. The lost man has no "inward man" that "delights in the law of God" but rather the opposite - "is at ENMITY with God and is NOT SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF GOD AND NEITHER INDEED CAN BE" - Rom. 8:7


6. The man in this context is WILLING to do right but does not have POWER to right:

Rom. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

7. The man in this context denies that he is responsible for the origin of evil but rather it originate from indwelling sin in one aspect of his person:

Rom. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
25 So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

8. This man idenitifes one aspect of his being which has not yet been REDEEMED from sin and from whence SIN not only originates within him ["my members" "this body of death"] but operates as a "law" "the flesh"

14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

When Paul says "I am carnal sold under sin" he makes it clear he is talking about one aspect of his nature called "the flesh" while emphatically denying that what is sold under sin refers to "I" and his "inward man".

The conclusion to Paul's question in Romans 6:1 is that the child of God does not "continue in sin" for the following reasons:

1. What we have received (justification/regeneration) symbolized in Baptism. Baptism symbolically declares us to have died to sin by identifying us with his death and burial and have risen with Christ in regenerative life "that we might no longer serve sin" - Rom. 6:2-6 - Hence, we are judicially "free" (justified) from sin by Christ's death (v. 7) that we might live with Christ in serving God (v. 8) no more legally under the dominion of sin (v. 9). Having the resurrected life of Christ we should reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God under his servants under grace rather than under law (vv. 10-15). Responsibility to implement what we have received by grace.

2. Justified persons are no longer the servants of sin but servants of Righteousness by regenerative life - Rom. 6:16-23

3. Justified persons are no longer under the law but that does not they are free to sin - Romans 7:1-5 - nor does that mean the law is sin - Romans 7:6-13 - nor does that mean we live without or live above sin - Romans 7:14-25

4. Justified persons do not continue in sin under condemnation because of the Indwelling Spirit of God - Rom. 8:1-9. By the power of the indwelling Spirit of God the power of indwelling sin can be put to death and therefore we are not debtors to sin to continue in sin - Rom. 8:10-13.


CONCLUSION:

1. The body of the saved man has not been regenerated and is still unredeemed - the flesh - members - and is subject to physical death - corruption due to sin - thus "sold under sin" and must die or be transformed.

2. Sin dwells in "the flesh" of regenerated persons and operates as a "law" that is in active opposition to the inward regenerative nature of man.

3. The regenerated man "delights" in the law of God, has the presence of "will" for Good but lacks POWER to conquer indwelling sin and always loses in a power struggle.

4. The answer to indwelling sin and its power is not the "will" of man but the power of the indwelling Spirit of God.

5. Regenerated persons do not "continue in sin" although they do sin, and always will lose to sin if they operate by the power of their own will, but they do not "continue in sin" because the Holy Spirit within them provides not merely power to express the regenerative life of Christ but God works in them both to will and to do of His good pleasure according to His good purpose (Rom. 8:26-28).

I see you have put some time and thought to your argument here. For those that see this as a saved man, there will be no changing of your minds and for those of us that see this as a lost man, there is no changing of our minds. It's not that we have different facts, but rather its how those facts are interpreted.
It always come down to, sinless perfection versus Christians still continue in sin. I, as many like my self, don't believe it is impossible for us to be able to sin after being born again, but we just don't live in sin. Sin is not a way of life for the believer.

Just for the record, I believe Romans 7 is a lost man still trying to please God by keeping the law, but failing. Even lost people delight in the Law of God, those were the ones Paul dealt with on a continual basis and those would be the ones Paul was trying to bring to faith and not works by the law.
The present tense is present tense because it is speaking of a carnal man sold unto sin, in other words he is lost. Lost men are still in their sin and have not yet been bought by the blood of Christ. That is historical present tense and fits in well with the past tense of 7:7-13.
Just as Paul contrasts one thing to another continually, here he is contrasting a saved man (chapters 6 and 8) to a lost man (chapter 7).

Paul has already shown us where he is going with his argument in 7:1-6.
7:4 is about chapter 6. present tense.
7:5 is about 7:7-25. past tense.
7:6 is about chapter 8. present tense.

 

[The Biblicist]

I see you have put some time and thought to your argument here. For those that see this as a saved man, there will be no changing of your minds and for those of us that see this as a lost man, there is no changing of our minds. It's not that we have different facts, but rather its how those facts are interpreted.
It always come down to, sinless perfection versus Christians still continue in sin. I, as many like my self, don't believe it is impossible for us to be able to sin after being born again, but we just don't live in sin. Sin is not a way of life for the believer.

Just for the record, I believe Romans 7 is a lost man still trying to please God by keeping the law, but failing. Even lost people delight in the Law of God, those were the ones Paul dealt with on a continual basis and those would be the ones Paul was trying to bring to faith and not works by the law.
The present tense is present tense because it is speaking of a carnal man sold unto sin, in other words he is lost. Lost men are still in their sin and have not yet been bought by the blood of Christ. That is historical present tense and fits in well with the past tense of 7:7-13.
Just as Paul contrasts one thing to another continually, here he is contrasting a saved man (chapters 6 and 8) to a lost man (chapter 7).

Paul has already shown us where he is going with his argument in 7:1-6.
7:4 is about chapter 6. present tense.
7:5 is about 7:7-25. past tense.
7:6 is about chapter 8. present tense.

First, our position does not teach that Christians "live in sin" but they "live in the Spirit" but in addition should also "walk in the Spirit" (Gal. 5:25) instead of "after the flesh" even though they do not live "in the flesh" (Rom. 8:8-9).


Your analysis is purely speculative without any real support. Instead, Romans 6:1 is the question being answered from Romans 6:2-8:13. This answer is divided under three divisions each introduced by "know ye not" and concluded in Romans 8:13.

a. "Know ye not" - Rom. 6:2-15
b. "Know ye not" - Rom. 6:16-23
c. "Know ye not" - Rom. 7:1-8:12

Hence, Romans 6:1 and Romans 8:12-13 when placed side by side show the distinct beginning and ending of this section:

Rom. 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?


Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


However, if you are going to insist Romans 7:14-25 deals with a lost religious man then here are some doctrines you will be forced to embrace.


1. Total inability of the human will:

for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Indeed, the good "I would, I do not" is the constant theme of a powerless will in this passage.


2. The lost man can justly deny that he is responsible for sin:

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


3. That lost people can truly serve the Law of God WITHOUT SINNING but only their flesh sins:

So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 7:25 plainly and explicitly teaches that one aspect of human nature can serve God WITHOUT SIN as only the flesh serves the law of sin.

 

[Moriah]

I see you have put some time and thought to your argument here. For those that see this as a saved man, there will be no changing of your minds and for those of us that see this as a lost man, there is no changing of our minds. It's not that we have different facts, but rather its how those facts are interpreted.
It always come down to, sinless perfection versus Christians still continue in sin. I, as many like my self, don't believe it is impossible for us to be able to sin after being born again, but we just don't live in sin. Sin is not a way of life for the believer.

Just for the record, I believe Romans 7 is a lost man still trying to please God by keeping the law, but failing. Even lost people delight in the Law of God, those were the ones Paul dealt with on a continual basis and those would be the ones Paul was trying to bring to faith and not works by the law.
The present tense is present tense because it is speaking of a carnal man sold unto sin, in other words he is lost. Lost men are still in their sin and have not yet been bought by the blood of Christ. That is historical present tense and fits in well with the past tense of 7:7-13.
Just as Paul contrasts one thing to another continually, here he is contrasting a saved man (chapters 6 and 8) to a lost man (chapter 7).

Paul has already shown us where he is going with his argument in 7:1-6.
7:4 is about chapter 6. present tense.
7:5 is about 7:7-25. past tense.
7:6 is about chapter 8. present tense.

Paul was speaking of himself before Jesus saved him. The people who think Paul was speaking of himself after Jesus saved him they are the Calvinists.

If Calvinists admit that Paul was speaking of himself BEFORE Jesus saved him, then it destroys their Calvinist beliefs, it destroys their Calvinist beliefs because Paul said he wanted to do good. As you probably know, Calvinists believe no one can even want to do good before they are saved.

Calvinists are now forced to admit people ARE capable of doing good before they become a Christian. Calvinists now claim they can do good before they are a Christian because they were really saved before the creation of the world. Their beliefs are not stable, to say the least.

 

[The Biblicist]

Paul was speaking of himself before Jesus saved him. The people who think Paul was speaking of himself after Jesus saved him they are the Calvinists.

If Calvinists admit that Paul was speaking of himself BEFORE Jesus saved him, then it destroys their Calvinist beliefs, it destroys their Calvinist beliefs because Paul said he wanted to do good. As you probably know, Calvinists believe no one can even want to do good before they are saved.

Calvinists are now forced to admit people ARE capable of doing good before they become a Christian. Calvinists now claim they can do good before they are a Christian because they were really saved before the creation of the world. Their beliefs are not stable, to say the least.

Doesn't it bother you at all that you are incapable of responding to the Biblical evidence I set forth before you and all you can do is PHILOSOPHIZE, SPECULATE in return??????? All you do is ignore the evidences and simply ASSERT your unproven speculations????????

If I could not directly deal with Biblical evidence being set forth, I would not embarass myself in making unfounded assertions.

Try for once to deal with the evidence being placed before you face! I gave SCRIPTURAL and TEXTUAL reasons why you are wrong - deal with it or keep your hot air to yourself as it is simply that - hot air.

 

[Moriah]

Doesn't it bother you at all that you are incapable of responding to the Biblical evidence I set forth before you and all you can do is PHILOSOPHIZE, SPECULATE in return??????? All you do is ignore the evidences and simply ASSERT your unproven speculations????????

If I could not directly deal with Biblical evidence being set forth, I would not embarass myself in making unfounded assertions.

Try for once to deal with the evidence being placed before you face! I gave SCRIPTURAL and TEXTUAL reasons why you are wrong - deal with it or keep your hot air to yourself as it is simply that - hot air.

Everything you falsely accuse me of, it is what you are guilty of doing. I do not think that you should be embarrassed; rather, you should humble yourself and repent for following a false religion.
There is no way you can give a scriptural, biblical answer to your false beliefs, because they are beliefs not stated in the Bible. No amount of Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic that you can learn that will make one bit of difference to help you in your life and doctrine of error. No amount of English classes you take will help you. There is no seminary school either.

Calvinist beliefs are NOWHERE in the scriptures, it is not even implied. God simply and plainly gives us the truth, but some men prefer Calvinists ASSUMPTIONS. It is the work of Satan that you have been ensnared to do. You help cause confusion to those who are not as knowledgeable. I will continue to explain the scriptures and correct Calvinists and all those who teach falseness. For Satan takes away what is sown when anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. I love explaining God’s truth. I love correcting, refuting, rebuking and teaching the truth.