preacher4truth
Active Member
Like I've already requested Winman, stop derailing this proof texting thread with your original sin agenda. Go start your own thread on original sin.
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What Is "Proof Texting"...
- Thread starter preacher4truth
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Like I've already requested Winman, stop derailing this proof texting thread with your original sin agenda. Go start your own thread on original sin.
Hank was right when he said:
Ezek.18:20 you use as a proof-text (the topic of this thread), and you have taken it out of context, as the context dictates that it speaks of just punishment due to murder, cruelty, etc. Children should not pay for the actual crimes (as murder) that their parents have done. That is the teaching of the verse. It doesn't have anything to do with Original Sin. But it is a very good example of you proof-texting.
Be that as it may, there are other individuals here that would like you to take this particular conversation on OS and the depravity of man to another thread. And they are right. Please don't derail this thread. You have given us all a fine example of proof-texting. Now leave it at that. Start another thread for OS, etc.
Again, I don't know how you can discuss proof-texting without discussing actual examples of proof-texting and whether they are valid or not. If the question is whether folks use proof-texts, the answer is yes, and the conversation is over. Is that alll P4T wanted to know?
Here's another example of a famous proof-text;
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Here is a famous verse used by the JWs to claim that Jesus is not God, but a lesser "god". It is a proof-text. Is it a valid use of a proof-text?
So, how in the world can we know whether this is a valid use of a proof-text without discussing the verse?
But if all P4T wants to know is whether folks proof-text, the answer is yes. Discussion over.
You simply don't like the proof-texts I have chosen to discuss. And I would disagree with your interpretation of Ezekiel 18, it is speaking of dying "in" sin, it is speaking of forgiveness of sins, it is not speaking of civil law, but the eternal ramifications of sin.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
You're even struggling with the OP. Intentionally I might add. The OP is "what is proof texting and why is it a weak apologetic?" Now, unintentionally and being oblivious to doing so, you've answered both of these questions. :thumbsup:
Winman, all of your examples are proof texting, you just don't know it, or what it means, or how serious an error it is.
Talk about famous proof texts. What about yours? Let's not forget your proof text from Psalm 82 where you dogmatically use it to prove that all ("we") are the children of God, not the devil. Now that's famous!
Winman, you've thoroughly showed us not only that proof texting exists, but have also shown that it is a weak apologetic, and is what you in fact use relentlessly. Now, will you ever see this, admit it, change, grow, seek interpretational help, and accept how it has lead you to many fallacious doctrines and errors? Heavens sakes no.
One simple thing for you to do, go start your own thread on original sin. I'm certain you can accomplish that. Thanks.
It is valid as a propositional "proof-text" to be offered as a challenge for the support of a specific dogma. That is what debate is all about. These kinds of debates have gone on since the birth of the church.
I agree and here are a few helps (which I'm sure you already know, but others might not).
Be diligently in the word of truth
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Pray for wisdom
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Ask
Matthew 7:7
(A)sk, and it shall be given you;
(s)eek, and ye shall find;
(k)nock, and it shall be opened unto you:
(A)sk, and it shall be given you;
(s)eek, and ye shall find;
(k)nock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Search the scriptures:
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Pay attention to every single word:
4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
If possible, know the grammar
Similarly to English there are synonyms and homonyms in the Greek and Hebrew of the Bible (probably more in Hebrew)
e.g. pneuma/ruach In both Greek and Hebrew there is a word in each which could mean wind or spirit. Proof-texting is of little value without the context.
The word/concept of death as another example. "death" can have more than one meaning.
The soul that sinneth it shall die.
Children have souls, some die an untimely death before a knowledge of good and evil.
Whose sin are they dying for seeing that according to your view they have no sin and therefore should not die?
Again, you are wrong and this time it is not an opinion. I love the word of God, every word and I love to discuss it as I have proven by my posts with you.
Perhaps you would like to give an opinion on my "proof-text" as to its meaning:
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Again, if children die (the soul that sinneth it shall die) before the knowledge of good and evil who is responsible for their death seeing that they have not sinned according to your theology?
HankD
IMO, This is good that these examples have appeared in this post.
It clearly shows the error folks (not saying who is in error, obviously someone is) can fall into by "proof-texting" and citing human authors to support the "proof-texting" (in either case, for or against) such as Augustine, Calvin, Arminius, Matthew Henry, etc, etc...
BTW winman, to be consistent, if you are a Trinitarian and believe that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, then you should reject these two beliefs (The Trinity, the Incarnation) also because Augustine believed both as well as the adamic origin of the universal and unlearned ability and propensity of man to sin.
Again, you are IMO wrong because Ezekiel is speaking of offenses against the Law of Moses.
In addition, how is the global destruction of the flood of Noah and the death of the entire human race (save Noah and family), men, women children and infants included explained by Ezekiel 18?
Or the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?
Or the destruction of Jerusalem, the starvation and slaughter of almost one million men women and children of its citizens in AD70?
We are born in a state of alienation from God.
Adam is the root we are the branches of families descendant from Him.
The ability and propensity of sin is passed on from Adam to every one of us.
An apple tree is an apple tree whether it bears fruit or not.
The fruit proves it is an apple tree which is determined by the root and the seeds which it subsequently bears passing on its nature to its progeny.
A child's first sin proves he/she was a sinner (unproven until the sin, but a sinner nonetheless) all along and of the root of Adam.
Romans 5
2 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
This can only be changed by a new birth from a new root.
HankD
to the extreme Charasmatics such as the hagins/Copelands/Hinns etc...
faith itself is a powerful force, there is power in your spoken words and thoughts...
"write your own ticket with God, create own reality, what yuo confess you will receive"
basically, master the Force and you can become a god to them, "bossing" God around . as even he HAS to be bound by His own 'spiritual law and rules!"
preacher4truth
Active Member
Making man himself god.
Errant theologies have lent themselves to this mess, along with their false view that faith resides within man. Faith comes from God!
- Peace
I do not disagree with the trinity, there are many scriptures that point to a trinity (Mat 18:19, 1 Jhn 5:7, Jhn 1:1, 14)
What? Are murder, stealing, and adultery no longer sins? You will not see one civil penalty mentioned in Ezekiel 18, it speaks of a person dying "in his sins" or "his trespasses will not be mentioned". It is speaking of eternal damnation or forgiveness which only God can grant. This passage is not speaking of civil penalties for sin whatsoever.
You are mistaking physical death with spiritual death. All men die as a consequence of Adam's sin, God cursed the ground that passed on all creation. Animals that cannot sin die, plants die, sea-life dies, even non-living things grow old and wear out. Stars burn out, metals corrode, mountains erode, etc...
All men die physically as a consequence of Adam's sin, just as a bus driver who gets drunk and drives off a cliff. All of his passengers die as a consequence of the bus driver's sin, but they are not guilty of the bus driver's sin.
Romans 5 is not speaking of physical death, look at the terms used such as condemnation, trespasses, justification, righteousness, etc... This chapter is not speaking of physical death at all.
The scriptures NEVER say we are born in a state of alienation, they say we are alienated by wicked works.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
The scriptures show that newborn children commit no wicked works.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
Jacob and Esau were alive when God spoke to Rebecca, and Paul says they had done no evil.
Again, you are speaking of our physical bodies. We do inherit our bodies from our parents. But the scriptures teach we receive our soul and spirit from God.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Would you accuse God of giving you an evil spirit?
Isa 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
Does God make evil souls?
Adam and Eve had the ability to sin from the day they were created. They did not have a sin nature, yet they both sinned. A sin nature is not required to sin, Adam and Eve prove that.
Jesus showed that we ourselves determine whether we bear good or evil fruit.
Mat 12:33 Eithermake the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Jesus did not teach we are born with a sinful nature that compels us to sin, Jesus taught that a man himself determines whether he is a good tree that bears good fruit, or a corrupt tree that bears corrupt fruit. By the way, the definition of "corrupt" means to go from a good or pristine state to a polluted, tainted, perverted state, etc... Look up the definition in any dictionary. You cannot corrupt that which is already corrupt.
Adam was not a sinner but he sinned. Committing sin DOES NOT prove you are a sinner. You do BECOME a sinner once you sin.
Romans 5:12 does not say Adam's SIN passed on us, it says DEATH passed on all of us "because" or "for that" all have sinned. Spiritual death passes on every man when he knowingly and willingly sins as Adam did.
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I'm just pointing out that if you are passing judgment on Augustine for one thing (original sin) but agree with him on others (Trinity) perhaps you should withhold all judgement.
Huh? Ezekiel 18 is speaking of the law and the statutes and judgments.
Ezekiel 18
6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, ...
7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
Most of these are dealt with in the Law of Moses and the penalty is physical death by stoning (for instance) for defiling a married woman.
You can't stone a soul.
Except in Romans 5 we are linked to Adam both by sin and death.
The bus driver analogy fails because the passenger's death is a consequence of his actions, he doesn't pass it on to the entire human race of which no one will escape...no not one.
I might believe you winman but the wording of Romans 5:12 holds me back
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Sin entered into the world. Adam was the source, the origin of sin.
He committed the "original" sin, the source and progenitor of all who sin and ALL sin.
His physical death
Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
That is because of your interpretation of:
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Granted , but they had received the propensity and ability to sin from Adam though they had not borne its fruit yet.
If only a few sinned or even many or even most then what you say would be believable but becausue ALL will and do eventually sin being universal and unlearned then we must have received this ability passed from Adam.
Not from the beginning. Just as the creation is good even today as it suffers the entropy that Adam brought to it and we as well, but in the beginning it was "very good".
We are a different case. After they sinned they lost immortality, and were separated from God and cast out of the Garden of Eden. The ability to know good and evil, sin, death and separation from God were passed on to the entire human race.
This is exactly what Romans 5:12 teaches:
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
I already said this. We need a new birth, a new root. He is talking about regeneration.When that happens then we bear the fruit of the Spirit, the good fruit, as opposed to the works of the flesh
I'm sorry winman but that is a total fallacy. What then does committing sin prove?
Suppose a man commits murder and tells the judge - well it was only one murder and therefore it does not make me a murderer
Its all the same package that we receive from Adam
Psalm 14
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Sin is universal and an unlearned activity of humankind and therefore it has to be part of our natural equipment otherwise there would be some who would not die. This is why we all die, even children who have not yet done good or evil sometimes die. If it were otherwise there would be those human beings who would choose not to sin and would live beyond the average life span - hundreds maybe thousands of years, maybe forever.
Again, what you say might be believable except for Romans 5:12
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
We have come to the usual protracted ending when we discuss this and use our various "proof-texts". Take the last word if you wish. I'll bow out unless you make another challenge.
I wanted folks to know there is another view even using the same proof-texts.
HankD
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The devil tells some truth, he was telling the truth when he told Eve they would become as gods, knowing good and evil. That was 100% truth. But he mixed it with falsehood when he told Eve she would not surely die.
Read more carefully, you will see no mention of civil penalties. What you will read is that God says men will die "in" their sin, while those who repent, "their transgressions will not be mentioned". Only God can forgive sin.
Eze 18:18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
God is not saying that a man who commits murder or adultery if he repents shall go unpunished in this world, God is saying his sins will be forgiven, they will not be mentioned unto him. In verse 18 God speaks of a man dying "in his iniquity". This is speaking of spiritual and eternal death as Jesus spoke of in John 8:24.
Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
That little word "in" is very important, it is speaking of dying in an unforgiven state, under the condemnation of your sins. This is speaking of a lost person who will be lost for eternity. This is shown even more clearly in verse 24.
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Again, notice it says this man shall die "in" his sin and "in them". This is speaking of eternal separation from God.
There is not one civil punishment mentioned in this chapter. There is nothing said of stoning a murderer, or putting a thief in prison, none of that. This chapter is speaking of the eternal, not temporal.
I will answer the rest tomorrow, got to go to bed.
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Ask and ye shall receive!
Already posted up a new thread for original sin!
Come on in and start posting reasons for/against that doctrine!
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preacher4truth
Active Member
I think you forgot to make your new thread.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Yes, back to the OP.
When proof texting one major problem lies with those looking for "one verse" as proof ("show me one verse where it says that!") typically a request from those using proof texting as their theological methodology. If one verse cannot be found, worded as they desire, then they cannot receive a truth that is expressed throughout the pages of Scripture in principle. The thing is, these are aware there is no such "one verse" in most cases, which is why they are requesting this, or, begging the question.
Anyhow, this is from where the error stems, it is within ones poor apologetic and demand for "one verse." Generally these will answer any theological question with a one verse "bomb" as if this one verse represents all truth. Unfortunately, the verse employed in this endeavor is almost always robbed from its context and intended meaning, thus truth is not expressed. There is nothing differing this methodology and weak apologetic from what is practiced within cults. Somehow others think it is OK to do it if they belong to a Baptist church, or, at the least, they've never considered their methodology to be deficient and errant. Nevertheless these are just as wrong in their methodology as those within cultic groups; they both arrive at spurious conclusions, as this is the only logical end to a weak proof texting apologetic. This is one major reason as to why there is so much theological error among church members today.
- Peace
different ways to proof text!
Isolate lone passage, interprete it as being against majority of verses teaching other wise!
take passage out of context
NOT going back to the Greek/hebrew, as JUST sticking to English versions
taking a truth of the Bible exclusive to all else, not teaching "all the oracles of God!"
Reading our own system back into the Bible, as seeing it through lense of cal/Arm/Dispy/Cov/Charasmatic etc
basically, taking certain "pet verses' to support ones own theology, not what the bible intended!