Loving the Return Of Christ

[Grasshopper]

So the great and blessed hope for the Church, second coming of christ and us being glorified and this earth and all Creation being restored was JUST for first century church?

So we have NO hope now, we missed that?

JesusFan if you would spend half the time actually reading and trying to understand what others write as you do starting endless new topics, you would see how your question is foolish.

 

[OldRegular]

So those who die remain in their grave and are not presently in the presence of God?

Not at all and you know that is not what Steve is saying!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So those who die remain in their grave and are not presently in the presence of God?

Not at all. It is clear that as disembodied spirits we are in some way with the Lord from the moment of death until our Lord's return (eg. Rev 6:9). I cannot imagine what it will be like to be a spirit without a body. But that is not our destiny (Job 19:26; 1Cor 15:20ff). At Christ's return, we, united with our glorified bodies, shall rise to meet our Saviour (1 Thes 4:16-17). As I said, the mechanics of this I leave to God, but the Scriptures are clear enough for us to see what will happen.

Steve

 

[DaChaser1]

Not at all. It is clear that as disembodied spirits we are in some way with the Lord from the moment of death until our Lord's return (eg. Rev 6:9). I cannot imagine what it will be like to be a spirit without a body. But that is not our destiny (Job 19:26; 1Cor 15:20ff). At Christ's return, we, united with our glorified bodies, shall rise to meet our Saviour (1 Thes 4:16-17). As I said, the mechanics of this I leave to God, but the Scriptures are clear enough for us to see what will happen.

Steve

IF there is NO physical resurrection of the body and reuniting with our souls/spirits that are in heaven waiting for time of second Coming...

We would NOT have the full completed salvation promised of the lord...

We NEED to have glorified our physical bodies to receive the full inheritance God promised us in Christ!

 

[HankD]

So those who die remain in their grave and are not presently in the presence of God?

This is confusing grasshopper, that is what we are wanting you to tell us.

The full preterist believes that "all has been fulfilled".

What about :

1 Thessalonians 4

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

The implication of this passage is that it is a one-time occurrence at His coming after which we go off somewhere with Him to be with Him forever.

What then of all those who have died after the supposed AD70 fulfillment of this passage.

What other scripture or what hermeneutic of this scripture of the full preterist view offers us any hope?

I believe this is the Achilles Heel of full preterism.

After AD70 the scripture becomes a closed book because it cannot be proved otherwise. "all has been fulfilled", all the hope promises, the resurrection, the old heaven and earth has been burned up in a great noise, the new heavens and new earth have been esablished, the New Jerusalem has come down from heaven and been populated, etc, etc, ...

Show us scripture(s) otherwise... but you can't because "all has been fulfilled".

If in the 21st century (and all centuries after AD70) the New Jerusalem is still being populated then "all has not been fulfilled".

Even at the end of the Book of Revelation He had not come yet.

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.​

HankD

 

[Grasshopper]

This is confusing grasshopper, that is what we are wanting you to tell us.

I believe upon death we are in the presence of God. I was responding to the line of thought that says we are all awaiting the blessed hope of Christ's return so we can see Him:

*Quote:
I agree Steve, the Blessed Hope of the Saints was and should be the visible return of Jesus Christ as promised in Scripture!

Will we not see Him upon death? Are we unable to because we are disembodied souls floating around heaven with no eyes waiting to be sent back to our graves and united with our old body? This is the picture that was painted for me. What say you?

The full preterist believes that "all has been fulfilled".

Depends the brand of full preterist. I divide eschatology into two groups, futurism and preterism. I am on the preterist side. Within preterism you have different degrees, partial preterism to full preterism. I have come to the conclusion I am not going to get all the answers so I consider myself just a preterist not favoring nor hostile to either view. Kind of fluid throughout the preterist view.

What about :

1 Thessalonians 4

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

For a full preterist view of this subject: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0979933757/?tag=baptis04-20

The implication of this passage is that it is a one-time occurrence at His coming after which we go off somewhere with Him to be with Him forever.

Are we not with Him forever upon death?

What then of all those who have died after the supposed AD70 fulfillment of this passage.

The FP would say they go directly into the prescense of God. Perhaps Tom will see this thread and comment further.

What other scripture or what hermeneutic of this scripture of the full preterist view offers us any hope?

My hope is in the finished work of Christ. Was this letter written to the Church? If so, then why is Paul talking to Christians about seeing the coming of the Lord? According to pre-mill Dispies won't the church be gone by then?

After AD70 the scripture becomes a closed book because it cannot be proved otherwise. "all has been fulfilled", all the hope promises, the resurrection, the old heaven and earth has been burned up in a great noise, the new heavens and new earth have been esablished, the New Jerusalem has come down from heaven and been populated, etc, etc, ...

May I recommend a couple of new articles by someone who is not a full preterist:

http://americanvision.org/5523/the-promise-of-his-appearing-2-peter-3/

**http://americanvision.org/5526/a-new-creation-adorned/

Show us scripture(s) otherwise... but you can't because "all has been fulfilled".

I do not believe all has been fulfilled, that is a problem I have with some forms of full preterism. I am more post mill in my worldview. The parable of the mustard seed with the kingdom spreading is my view along with the Revelarion passage with sinners entering the city to drink from the river of Life. A passage futurist must put in the future.

If in the 21st century (and all centuries after AD70) the New Jerusalem is still being populated then "all has not been fulfilled

".

Bingo!

Even at the end of the Book of Revelation He had not come yet.

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.​

There we are with another troublesome time indicator. Only preterism can deal with that passage without redefining quickly, or artificially inserting some sort of delay, or push a notion that was using some technique to keep us all on our toes.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I believe upon death we are in the presence of God. I was responding to the line of thought that says we are all awaiting the blessed hope of Christ's return so we can see Him:

*Quote:
I agree Steve, the Blessed Hope of the Saints was and should be the visible return of Jesus Christ as promised in Scripture!

Will we not see Him upon death? Are we unable to because we are disembodied souls floating around heaven with no eyes waiting to be sent back to our graves and united with our old body? This is the picture that was painted for me. What say you?

Do spirits have eyes, legs, arms? As I said, I have no idea what it would be like to be a disembodied spirit. Do you know? On what basis then?

The most detailed account concerning this matter comes in 2 Cor 5:1-8:-

'For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.'
2 Cor 5:1-8 (NKJV)

I hope we can agree that the 'tent' that Paul speaks of in verse 1 is our mortal bodies. In verse 4, he tells us that he does not desire to 'be unclothed, but further clothed.' What he is looking forward to is not being a disembodied spirit, but to have a brand new resurrection body that does not age or wear out. However, knowing that he has the Spirit as a guarantee that this will come about, he is aware that so long as he is in his present body he is away from his Lord (v6). So he will be quite ready to leave this old body behind and go to be with Christ (v7), but that does not contradict what he has said before- that what he is really looking forward to is that new resurrection body.

For a full preterist view of this subject: http://www.amazon.com/Shall-Meet-Wed...7789193&sr=1-1

I have no intention of spending money on what I believe to be a totally aberrant theology. If you want to persuade me of this view, you're going to have to do it yourself.

I do not believe all has been fulfilled, that is a problem I have with some forms of full preterism.

I am delighted to hear it. I do not fall out with anyone, premil or postmil, who believes that Christ is yet to come. However, I do believe that Hyper-preterism (quite apart from its ridiculous anti-Biblical stance) is outside of the doctrine of Christ as it has been established for 2,000 years. I also believe that it goes directly against our Lord's command for Christians to 'watch' and 'be ready.' Why should be watch for the Lord's return if He has already come and is not coming again? So we will fall into the condemnation of Matt 24:48-51.

I am more post mill in my worldview. The parable of the mustard seed with the kingdom spreading is my view along with the Revelarion passage with sinners entering the city to drink from the river of Life. A passage futurist must put in the future.

An Amillennialist sees the parable as being both present and future.

Steve

 

[Grasshopper]

Do spirits have eyes, legs, arms? As I said, I have no idea what it would be like to be a disembodied spirit. Do you know? On what basis then?

I Think you have already determined by your previous statements that those in heaven cannot see Christ. You said the Blessed hope is the visible return of Christ. Obviously if one could see in heaven then they would already have their visible blessed hope. Since you believe all Christians dead or alive will experience the Blessed Hope at His return then they must be blinded to Him now waiting on their buried body.

Can God see? He is Spirit.

The most detailed account concerning this matter comes in 2 Cor 5:1-8:-

'For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.'
2 Cor 5:1-8 (NKJV)

Interesting, the dead go into the presence of God where their body is waiting for them but they are not allowed in it until the second coming. Is this your belief?

I hope we can agree that the 'tent' that Paul speaks of in verse 1 is our mortal bodies.

Not necessarily but that is another discussion.

I have no intention of spending money on what I believe to be a totally aberrant theology. If you want to persuade me of this view, you're going to have to do it yourself.

I've found I learn best by reading from those who espouse a certain view. So this is all free so it won't cost you a penny:

http://www.eschatology.org/articles-mainmenu-61

Too deep a subject for this forum especiall using an iPad.

I am delighted to hear it. I do not fall out with anyone, premil or postmil, who believes that Christ is yet to come. However, I do believe that Hyper-preterism (quite apart from its ridiculous anti-Biblical stance) is outside of the doctrine of Christ as it has been established for 2,000 years.

My biggest problem with FP has Always been the lack of historical evidence. However you are sorely wrong if you think they don't use scripture to arrive at their conclusions. That's why it is important to see their arguments from their own words, then make your case against them.

I also believe that it goes directly against our Lord's command for Christians to 'watch' and 'be ready.' Why should be watch for the Lord's return if He has already come and is not coming again? So we will fall into the condemnation of Matt 24:48-51.

Context is the fall of Jerusalem as many non FP would acknowledge.

An Amillennialist sees the parable as being both present and future.

I see it as present and continuing.

 

[asterisktom]

Depends the brand of full preterist. I divide eschatology into two groups, futurism and preterism. I am on the preterist side. Within preterism you have different degrees, partial preterism to full preterism. I have come to the conclusion I am not going to get all the answers so I consider myself just a preterist not favoring nor hostile to either view. Kind of fluid throughout the preterist view.

Although I call myself a full-preterist I mean it in a limited sense. That is, the real blessing (and it would necessarily be a future blessing!) is what happens after death. So, in that sense, I am a partial-preterist. I cannot, at any rate, say that "all has been fulfilled". That comes on the other side of 2 Cor. 5:8.

But I don't see any outward Scriptural event still to come for the Christian, just the personal outworking of the ongoing Parousia of Christ for His own.

I'll keep this short for now, not knowing if it will go through. Chinese Internet can be screwy.

 

[asterisktom]

It would be interesting to see how full-preterists on this forum explain Revelation 21, 22!

The same way we explain Isaiah 7:14.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I Think you have already determined by your previous statements that those in heaven cannot see Christ.

You are entirely wrong. I never said that. I said I don't know. Nor do you.

You said the Blessed hope is the visible return of Christ.

It is not I who said that. It is the Apostle Paul (Titus 2:13). Perhaps it would be good if you directed your attention to this verse and the other texts I provided in the link on my OP.

Obviously if one could see in heaven then they would already have their visible blessed hope.

Obviously not, since the Bible says otherwise.

Since you believe all Christians dead or alive will experience the Blessed Hope at His return then they must be blinded to Him now waiting on their buried body.

Whether or not disembodied Christians can see without eyes, Paul and others are very clear that their 'Blessed Hope' is not death, which is always regarded as an enemy (Isaiah 25:7-8; 1 Cor 15:6 etc.), but the return of Christ when death will be defeated for ever.

Can God see? He is Spirit.

God is God; you and I aren't. God made Man to have a body and it is clear that we are incomplete without it, otherwise He wouldn't have given us one. Also, we were made to live upon the earth, not float about as spirits; and that is our destiny as the following verses show:-

'Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth' (Matt 5:5). Have the meek been doing that since AD 70? I don't think so.

'For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, butb through the righteousness of faith' (Rom 4:13). Did Abraham's seed inherit the world in AD 70?

[You] have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign upon the earth' (Rev 5:10). How are Christians reigning upon the earth in North Korea or Saudi Arabia just now?

We often think of Christians going to heaven, but again, that is not our final destiny. Heaven comes to us! 'Then I, John, saw the holy City, New Jerusalem, coming down from heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them.....' (Rev 21:2-3).

Context is the fall of Jerusalem as many non FP would acknowledge.

How would a First Century Christian living in Corinth or Philippi watch for the invisible return of Christ to Jerusalem? What would it have meant to them? They wouldn't have heard about it for some weeks or months, and in any case their lives would scarcely have changed as a result.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

A couple of verses in 1 Thessalonians occurred to me this evening.

2:19-20. 'For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming? For you are our glory and joy.'

Paul would be rejoicing at the Return of Christ, but the crown or pinnacle of his rejoicing would be seeing so many of the Thessalonian Christians saved alongside of him. That would be the vindication of his ministry. Note that Paul doesn't say that he will be rejoicing when he dies and goes to be with the Lord. No, his rejoicing will be at the Return of Christ.

3:12-13. And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.'

Paul is praying for love, the first and greatest fruit of the Spirit, to abound in the hearts of the Thessalonians, in order that when the Lord Jesus returns, there will be evidence of their conversion at the great day of Judgement.
Now the Letter to the Thessalonians was written about 19 years before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. Some of the Thessalonians would have died in that time and some would still be alive. Paul doesn't say that he wants the Thessalonians' hearts to be abounding when they die; he wants them abounding here and now because the Lord may come at any time. If Christ returned in AD 70, what judgement did the folk who were still alive face at that time? They didn't even know that Jerusalem had fallen for some weeks or months after the event. The world ended, the new heavens and new earth came into being and they didn't even know about it? I don't think so!

Steve

 

[kyredneck]

What was it that was shared by 1st Century believers in Israel, Corinth, Phillipi and Thessalonika? Probably quite a few few things, but one of them was that they were eagerly awaiting, longing for and loving the Return of Christ.

http://marprelate.wordpress.com/2012/01/20/the-forgotten-doctrine-loving-the-return-of-christ-1/

Steve

In the revelation [apocalypse] of Jesus Christ, please pinpoint the passage that you believe coincides with the any of the 'comings' you've cited.

 

[asterisktom]

A couple of verses in 1 Thessalonians occurred to me this evening.

2:19-20. 'For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming? For you are our glory and joy.'

Paul would be rejoicing at the Return of Christ, but the crown or pinnacle of his rejoicing would be seeing so many of the Thessalonian Christians saved alongside of him. That would be the vindication of his ministry. Note that Paul doesn't say that he will be rejoicing when he dies and goes to be with the Lord. No, his rejoicing will be at the Return of Christ.

3:12-13. And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.'

I believe you miss the emphases here. Consider this:

2:19-20. 'For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not you in the presence [Parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming? For you are our glory and joy.'

3:12-13. And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.'

It is all a matter of perspective, albeit sheathed (in this case) by eschatology. What is more important: an event or the abiding reality? The abiding reality is Christ's eternal Parousia, His presence among those whom He redeemed. I believe this was Paul's emphasis. You see it in many of Paul's letters, and in the rest of the Bible.

To make the timing of the event such a Shibboleth - as opposed to the timeless reality of His presence - is to go far afield, needlessly - not to say unscripturally! - making enemies out of friends and brothers.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In the revelation [apocalypse] of Jesus Christ, please pinpoint the passage that you believe coincides with the any of the 'comings' you've cited.

In short, all of them. In line with Acts 1:11, I see only one Return of Christ, and that is a visible one. Of course, different accounts concentrate on different aspects of the Event.

Steve

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I believe you miss the emphases here. Consider this:

2:19-20. 'For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not you in the presence [Parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming? For you are our glory and joy.'

I'm afraid you are somewhat confused here. The word translated 'in the presence' in this verse is not parousia but emprosthen which means 'before,' in the presence of' or 'in the face of.' It is 'coming' which is the translation of parousia. Now parousia certainly has the meaning of 'coming and abiding' and this is exactly what the Lord Jesus will do when He returns at the end of time. But in what way were the Thessalonian Christians 'in the face of' the Lord Jesus at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70? They can have known nothing of the event for some weeks or months after it happened.

3:12-13. And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.'

Once again, 'before' here is a translation of emprosthen. The Thessalonians will be standing in the presence of God the Father at the return of Christ.

It is all a matter of perspective, albeit sheathed (in this case) by eschatology. What is more important: an event or the abiding reality?

There is no reality without the event. If Christ does not return visibly (as per Acts 1:11), the joy of meeting Him face to face at that time is a myth.

The abiding reality is Christ's eternal Parousia, His presence among those whom He redeemed. I believe this was Paul's emphasis. You see it in many of Paul's letters, and in the rest of the Bible.

Absolutely not! As I showed in my O.P., the great hope and longing of the 1st Century Christians was for the physical return of Christ.

To make the timing of the event such a Shibboleth - as opposed to the timeless reality of His presence - is to go far afield, needlessly - not to say unscripturally! - making enemies out of friends and brothers.

Tom, what I'm going to say now is in sorrow, not in anger. I would much sooner be in unity with you than at variance.

Where is the basis of our Christian unity or brotherhood? We can't even recite the Apostles' Creed together. 'From thence He shall come to judge both the living and the dead.' You believe in a Christ who is never coming back. I'm sorry, but I don't believe in that Christ.

You have set yourself apart from your 'Christian friends and brothers' by espousing a doctrine that flies in the face of all Christian creeds and confessions right from the start, including the one espoused by the Chinese house churches. You are denying part of the doctrine of Christ, just as much as if you denied His virgin birth or His Deity. [If saying that gets me thrown off the baptist Board, I'm quite ready to go]

In the love of Jesus Christ I implore you to think again about this vital doctrine; to ask yourself if setting your supposed wisdom against the settled position of the Church down the ages is not an act of pride and arrogance, and to ponder if some of the texts that I and others have set before you do not entirely refute your position.

Steve

 

[asterisktom]

I was indeed mistaken on the "parousia" references in the beginning of my post. I miswrote from memory. There is more I need to say on this, however, but for now I want to focus on the last part of your post. The parts I want to emphasize I underlined:

Tom, what I'm going to say now is in sorrow, not in anger. I would much sooner be in unity with you than at variance.

Where is the basis of our Christian unity or brotherhood? We can't even recite the Apostles' Creed together. 'From thence He shall come to judge both the living and the dead.' You believe in a Christ who is never coming back. I'm sorry, but I don't believe in that Christ.

You have set yourself apart from your 'Christian friends and brothers' by espousing a doctrine that flies in the face of all Christian creeds and confessions right from the start, including the one espoused by the Chinese house churches. You are denying part of the doctrine of Christ, just as much as if you denied His virgin birth or His Deity. [If saying that gets me thrown off the baptist Board, I'm quite ready to go]

In the love of Jesus Christ I implore you to think again about this vital doctrine; to ask yourself if setting your supposed wisdom against the settled position of the Church down the ages is not an act of pride and arrogance, and to ponder if some of the texts that I and others have set before you do not entirely refute your position.

Steve

"Pride and arrogance": If I were to use that phrase to you you would rightfully call me to task for judging a brother. But it is OK for you to do that to me. I only call this inconsistency to your attention. Preterists are pretty inured to that charge. I would lie if I said there was no pride in my life (Is there in yours'?), but it was no pride that led me Preterism. I didn't think, "Gosh, how can I be different from all the other Christians and stick out like a sore thumb." No, it was Scripture. And a willingness to begin to consider that traditions need to first of all be examined.

Which brings me to the other thing: The great emphasis you lay on creeds and confessions. Do you not see that those are not on par with Scripture? That they, in some cases, take away from the force of pure Scripture? Inevitably, those who rail against Preterism as supposed enemies of Christ, use creeds and confessions as their clobbering sticks.

When Christ spoke of traditions of men making the Word of God of none effect do you suppose He was referring to something that only was relevant only to first-century Jews? Or that their experience exhausted the application? No. Rather, He was pointing to an ongoing downtrend in faulty human reasoning, a mission-creep in theology that must be ever guarded against. That is why we must always base our beliefs - and defend our positions - from Scripture.

Where do you find anywhere in Scripture warrant for such a magisterial use of Creeds and Confessions as we see today?

Please don't put words in my mouth: I do believe in Christ who came, and is here. There is a world of difference between this and your odd "believe in a Christ who is never coming back."

There is much, also, that you are mistaken on concerning those house churches, but you have more liberty to discuss that than I do now, so I'm not going to go further on this.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I was indeed mistaken on the "parousia" references in the beginning of my post. I miswrote from memory.

I am glad that you agree that you were mistaken, on this point at least. I look forward to seeing how this modifies your previous post.

"Pride and arrogance": If I were to use that phrase to you you would rightfully call me to task for judging a brother.

It must surely be clear to you by now that I cannot in all conscience treat you as a brother in Christ. 'And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.'

But it is OK for you to do that to me. I only call this inconsistency to your attention.

I make it a point never to take offense at anything that is said to or about me on a discussion forum.

I would lie if I said there was no pride in my life (Is there in yours'?), but it was no pride that led me Preterism. I didn't think, "Gosh, how can I be different from all the other Christians and stick out like a sore thumb." No, it was Scripture. And a willingness to begin to consider that traditions need to first of all be examined.

What else but pride can lead a man to think that he is wiser than the Church Fathers, the Reformers, the Puritans and everyone else down through history, especially to come up with such a crackpot unbiblical nonsense as Hyper-preterism? This is the spirit of the Unitarians, 7th Day Adventists and assorted heretics. They all reject Creeds and say they 'just believe the Bible.'

Time is pressing on me so I leave your comments on creeds and confessions for the moment except to say that I believe they are vital to the health of the churches. If the Church of England had kept to the XXIX Articles, it might not be the appalling mess it is today. If PCUSA had kept to the WCF, the same might be true of it. Also, if Mark Driscol and others knew the Reformed confessions, they might not have given T.D. Jakes a free pass on the Trinity in the Elephant Room just recently.

There is much, also, that you are mistaken on concerning those house churches, but you have more liberty to discuss that than I do now, so I'm not going to go further on this.

I will simply refer you to the Statement of Faith which the Chinese House Church leaders found it necessary to publish, not as a cause of division, but as a spur to unity and as a bulwark against false teaching.

http://www.chinaforjesus.com/StatementOfFaith.htm

I draw your attention to Article Seven:

7. The Last Days

We believe Christ will return, but no one except the Father knows the date of His return. On the day when Christ returns, He will come in glory and power on the clouds with the angels. On that day, the angels will blow the trumpet, and those who were dead in Christ will rise first. After that, all born again Christians who are still alive will also be transformed. Their bodies will all be glorified, and they will all be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

The saints will then reign together with Christ for a thousand years, during which Satan will be cast into the Abyss. When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released temporarily and will go out to deceive the nations until he is finally thrown into the lake of burning sulphur. After that, Christ will sit on the great white throne to judge man from each nation, tribe and people. Everyone will rise from the dead and be judged before the throne. If anyone’s name is not found written in the book of life, he’ll be thrown into the lake of fire. The former heaven and earth will be consumed by fire. Death and Hades will also be thrown into the fire.

Those whose names are found written in the book of life will enter into the new heaven and the new earth, living there with God forever. We believe that while waiting for the coming of the Lord, believers should serve the Lord with great diligence, preach the Word of life, and bear abundant fruits in their words, actions, faith, love and holiness. We also believe that those who do this shall receive all kinds of rewards.

As for whether the rapture happens before, during or after the great tribulation, we recognize that each denomination has its own conviction, and therefore there is no absolute conclusion in regard to this. The duty of each Christian is to be alert and prepare himself for the coming of the Lord.

It's a wee bit premillennial for my own tastes, but I don't fall out with anyone who believes in the coming return of Christ.

Steve