To say that Christ did not return in wrath on that generation, and entered into His kingdom while some of those at that time were still living, is pretty much the same as calling Christ and His apostles liars.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
War of Northern Aggression
- Thread starter agedman
- Start date
To say that Christ did not return in wrath on that generation, and entered into His kingdom while some of those at that time were still living, is pretty much the same as calling Christ and His apostles liars.
No, as jesus and His Apostles saw the Second Coming as time that the King would set up the Kingdom upon whole earth and reverse effects of the curse from the fall!
AD 70 did NOTHING about that!
beameup
Member
Actually, there is no mention of a "second coming" in Ezekiel 38-39.
The thread through Ezekiel 36,37,38, & 39 is the REGATHERING
of Jacob/Israel into the land "that the Fathers possessed" and
their National Revival and reestablishment of the ONLY religion given by God.
So, in this respect, it is precursor to the Tribulation, a precursor to the
"abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel" Matt 24.
Pouring wrath upon the Jerusalem and destruction of the worship center of the Jews is NOT an indicator of Christ's return.
The didn't the angels say, "Why y'all standin' around star gazin? Ya got work ta do! This very same Jesus that ya saw a goin' up, will come aga'n in about the same way. So get busy!" (southern version).
Had the Lord returned at the time of the wrath upon Jerusalem and entered into His kingdom, then John would have no cause to write the Revelation using the specific signs he wrote.
And you base this on what? Late dating of Revelation?
There's ample proof been provided the book was written pre AD70.
Nope, not pre 70.
Both Peter and Paul were long off the scene and the seven churches John wrote in the Revelation were not only started but significant in size and influence at the time of writing. John had started the churches of Smyrna, Pergamos, Sardis, Thyatira, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.
John had been the pastor of the church of Ephesus before placement on the island of Patmos by the Emperor Domitian who ruled from 81 - 96. His successor was Emperor Nerva who released John. It was while John was on the island that the Revelation was written. Rev 1:9
In my opinion, the reason John was released was because of the influential members of the churches communicating their desires to the local authorities who would then appeal to the various authorities above them. This could not have happened earlier than after the destruction of Jerusalem for there would have been no favor shown to any believer in the succession of Emperors until Nerva.
You knew all this already, didn't you.
Ref Rev 15:3. Do you know what the Song of Moses is? It had only one purpose. You'll find it in Dt 31:16 - Dt 32.
Have to read and interprete prophecy in the plain and literal meaning of the text, and with the truth of dual fulfillment, imminent partial, future fullness!
Spoken like a true dispy.
There is no problem molding the two when you consider that the account in the Revelation includes the song of the lamb.
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,
"Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."
In Deuteronomy the song of Moses was the law. You are correct for there is only one purpose in the song of Moses, and there is no other explanation for nor other words are given to the context other than the law and certain judgment pronounced upon not keeping the law.
The song of Moses and the Lamb found recorded in the Revelation shows that there was a both fulfillment and promise.
"Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other," the psalmist states.
It's TWO songs in 15:3, not one. The Song of Moses, AND, The Song of the Lamb.
Am I understanding you and JF correctly? You're saying TWO fulfillments of the Song of Moses just as you say TWO invasions by Gog and Magog?
Wow, I guess there's a dispy manual somewhere that explains all this stuff (don't get me wrong, I DON"T want one).
Last edited by a moderator:
It's TWO songs in 15:3, not one. The Song of Moses, AND, The Song of the Lamb.
Am I understanding you and JF correctly? You're saying TWO fulfillments of the Song of Moses just as you say TWO invasions by Gog and Magog?
Wow, I guess there's a dispy manual somewhere that explains all this stuff (don't get me wrong, I DON"T want one).
THANKS! Just spit my soda all over my screen laughin so hard.
But the song or songs does not disprove what I posted. The song of Moses was the law. There is no other words for the song other than what is given by Moses as the law.
The song of the lamb is actually quoted:
"Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."
The fact that there are two different songs not only show agreement between Moses and the Lamb, but the lyrics of the Lambs song show victory, glorification, justice, truth, judgments and that all nations will come and worship before the lamb.
Has ever sense Eden all nations come to worship before the Lamb?
Never, until the millennial reign will this earth be at such peace.
I am not certain what you mean by two fulfillments of the song.
Do I think the song can be sung more than once? Certainly, and with full authority. For whenever the law of Moses is read or spoken the lyrics of that song of his are certainly used. Whenever the song of the Lamb will be sung by the saints in the present heaven, then certainly the lyrics of the song are to be used.
There are portions of the Lambs song used even in the modern church.
Wow, I guess there's a dispy manual somewhere that explains all this stuff (don't get me wrong, I DON"T want one).
Just the word of God.
I don't think anyone is claiming there view is the only one worthy of endorsement by all Scripture.
But, when a view does specifically hold as literal a greater number of Scriptures, and that view does so in the acceptable way of contextual and text building and supporting one upon another, then it would seem that view should certainly be examined and tested by all who would make an inquiry.
Other than that, a person is left to review some "dispy manual" and never come to an understanding of the truth by use of the Scriptures.
The following verses ring the death knell of dispensationalism & the collective salvation of the state of Israel through a reestablishment of the Law in a temporal 1,000yr period of time. Howbeit, some refuse to listen. God no longer views us as Jews or Gentiles. He sees us all as His Israel by the New Covenant in Christ's blood.
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? (Rom 2:28-3:1)
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Rom 9:6-8)
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.(Gal 3:24-29)
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (Eph 2:14-19)
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. (Col 3:10-11)
And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments: Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel. But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them: Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people: And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house? And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil. (1Ki 9:4-9)
And as for thee, if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe my statutes and my judgments; Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel. But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them; Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations. (2Chronicles 7:17-20)
Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. (Jer 33:20-21)
Therefore thus saith the LORD of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost. (Jer 36:30)
Dispensationalists so easily ignore these passage which makes God's covenant with David a conditional one. The conditions were not met, the covenant is broken & no one has sat on the throne for centuries. The only eternal throne is at the right hand of God.
And king Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD for ever. (1Kings 2:45)
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. (Isaiah 9:6-7)
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.(Luke 1:32-33)
For ever or only for a 1,000yr period of time? Forever NEVER means "for a short period of time". Dispies just can't seem to understand the historical-grammatical context of Scripture. If it doesn't fit the dispensational system, it is disregarded.
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? (Rom 2:28-3:1)
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Rom 9:6-8)
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.(Gal 3:24-29)
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (Eph 2:14-19)
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. (Col 3:10-11)
And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments: Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel. But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them: Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people: And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house? And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil. (1Ki 9:4-9)
And as for thee, if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe my statutes and my judgments; Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel. But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them; Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations. (2Chronicles 7:17-20)
Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. (Jer 33:20-21)
Therefore thus saith the LORD of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost. (Jer 36:30)
Dispensationalists so easily ignore these passage which makes God's covenant with David a conditional one. The conditions were not met, the covenant is broken & no one has sat on the throne for centuries. The only eternal throne is at the right hand of God.
And king Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD for ever. (1Kings 2:45)
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. (Isaiah 9:6-7)
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.(Luke 1:32-33)
For ever or only for a 1,000yr period of time? Forever NEVER means "for a short period of time". Dispies just can't seem to understand the historical-grammatical context of Scripture. If it doesn't fit the dispensational system, it is disregarded.
The "dispies" are not in conflict with the Scriptures that you posted.
They also use such scriptures to show that Israel as a nation is not involved in this present age.
However, they would disagree that the promise of God to Abraham in which the covenant with His people was confirmed in other passages, was not made void by those passages you posted.
They would consider that such alignment of the scriptures in an attempt to support such thinking was in error and not supportable.
That God through the prophets did speak clearly that the people of Israel would be regathered into the land as one nation and not as tribes as the condition existed pre-Roman dispersion.
They hold to the 1000 year reign because it is specified in the Scriptures as well as the response by the people of Israel at His coming.
Forever does mean forever unless it is concerning the covenant of God to the people called by His name. Then forever is until God's mind is changed by mere mortal responses.
Of course, such a change in the covenant to the people called by His name would also mean that the believer who is called by His name might not be able to be secure in Paul's statement "there is therefore no condemnation..." for God can change the covenant relationship and is obliged to conform to mankind.
Yeah, so was the Song of Moses and Miriam, the book of Genesis, and everything else included in the five books of the Torah. I fail to see what you think the significance of that is. The Song had one purpose only, and that was to be sang as a testimony and witness against Israel when they had utterly corrupted themselves and evil would befall them in the latter days, and it's being sang in heaven in Rev 15:3.
A good reference bible should direct your attention to Rev 5:9-13 for the Song of the Lamb.
Sigh. With reasoning like this and post #31 you can get any meaning from the scriptures/prophecy you want.
I'm interested to know what application in all this there is for believers today.
If the Lord Jesus is going to set up a Millennial Kingdom for 1,000 years and rebuild the Temple, or if He isn't, there's not a thing any of us can do about it. If there's going to be a series of horrendous apocalyptic wars before the End, we can't stop them, and we can't fight on either side until they start. So what is the application for us? Or is it all just a sort of intellectual parlour game?
Just wondering. :smilewinkgrin:
Steve
If the Lord Jesus is going to set up a Millennial Kingdom for 1,000 years and rebuild the Temple, or if He isn't, there's not a thing any of us can do about it. If there's going to be a series of horrendous apocalyptic wars before the End, we can't stop them, and we can't fight on either side until they start. So what is the application for us? Or is it all just a sort of intellectual parlour game?
Just wondering. :smilewinkgrin:
Steve