Purpose Driven ?

[mont974x4]

If you can find a copy of his Christmas special from a few years ago watch it. He never mentioned sin or salvation. He just kept saying Jesus came so we would not be lonely. He gutted the Gospel. For awhile it was up on there site but when I looked a few months ago it was down.

He has welcomed new age people to speak. Not just an investigative discussion to test the spirits, but gave them a venue and endorsement. You can look back and see who he has had speak and investigate for yourself. Do not take my word for it.

I have watched Warren off and on for several years. We actually have mutual friends. It is heart breaking to see someone stray, especially someone that has such an opportunity to make such an impact.

 

[gb93433]

I have watched Warren off and on for several years. We actually have mutual friends. It is heart breaking to see someone stray, especially someone that has such an opportunity to make such an impact.

If what you say is true I would not spend one second listening to him because Mark says to be careful what we listen to. That is one of the reasons why I study the text rather than listen to sermons.

I am challenged to ask myself, "Who is living for Jesus Christ because of my life who is reproducing themselves in the lives of others who reproduce themselves in the lives of others?" That keeps me focused on what really matters in terms of praying for them and growing in grace and the knowledge of God's word.

Years ago when I was in my first pastorate I had a question about a passage in the Greek NT that I read and so I asked the pastor of a large church who was a trustee at a seminary and also a Christian university. When I asked him the question from the passage he directed me to an 80 year old retired pastor. The retired pastor had answers, but the trustee and current pastor did not. I often heard him say how he believed the Bible but saw that he was no longer equipped to discuss its text that he had once studied. He had a doctorate from the same seminary I graduated from so surely I thought he could discuss the Greek text. As I went to other pastors I got to know who graduated from the same seminary I found much the same thing among most of them.

I must discipline myself to know God and His word, and to stay focused on making disciples as Jesus did.

 

[Dabowhunter]

Just imagine if you ever found the church where the preacher preached like you ask above. You would not stay there, for by the 4th week or so of hell and damnation sermons, screamed from the pulpit, where people were bullied by the gospel instead of loved into the kingdom by truth spoken in a way that they could hear. You would soon tire of the very singular message of that pulpit. You would soon say, "Is there nothing else in the entirety of the Scriptures that could be preached except "You are a dirty, desperate sinner and you are damned to hell?"

Pastors who are authentic preach the WHOLE COUNSEL of God's Word, which includes sermon material on "wise living" in accordance with the text of Scripture. That would include semons on marriage and family, sermons on how to go to work and how to provide for a family God's way, sermons on missions, sermons on heart attitudes, sermons on the Law of God, and a lot of others. The topics covered by the Scriptures are literally every topic under the sun and it is the charge of God's preacher to cover them all.

Yes... Yes, we preach the gospel. The gospel should weave in and out of every other topic in the Scriptures, for the saving good news is the whole reason for the Bible, but to JUST preach on one firey topic without fail would be to fail God and God's people.

Perhaps you once attended a Baptist church that did what you ask. Where are they today? Gone... Decimated because they preached hate instead of love. Even the hardest words in the Scripture are to be preached in love -- so says Paul, so says Christ. We are to "speak the truth in love." To the extent that pastors "beat up people" with the gospel, they fail what God calls them to do in the Scriptures.

1. You don't know me from Adam. How could you possibly know what would run me out of a church? But hey, I have seen plenty of folks who would compromise the word of God that should of been run off. Some were.

Romans 16:17
"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."

2. Where do you get off assuming every church that preaches the Blood of Christ has a screaming hatefilled pastor and members?

3. Any chuch that is not preaching Christ crucified and risen and the atonement found only thru his precious Blood is preaching another gospel.


4. Before anyone can be saved they need to know their condition and the consequences of sin without salvation thru Christ.

5. If your "Love" message means candy coating the salvation message to the point of being useless, it is not love but hate. The kind of hate that refuses to tell a sick man how to get healed. If you see a man driving down the road to where the bridge is out do you wave and smile or tell him he is heading to destruction? btw I am not feeling the Love in your message.

6.
'For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life". Lev. 17:11

"when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned. As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the LORD a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin." Lev. 5:5-6

In the old test. the sacrifice was a type or shadow of the ulitmate sacrifice the Christ gave.

"Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." Heb. 11:11-

You see blood represents life. And the penalty for sin is loss of life. And the only thing that covers our sin is the Blood of the Lamb Jesus Christ. The Gospel is not being preached if your not preaching and teaching about the Blood of the Lamb. If that offends you or anyone else, too bad. Just think how our sins offend the Lord!
"You can't preach the Gospel without preaching the BLOOD, and you can't preach the BLOOD without preaching the Gospel!"

 

[preacher4truth]

1. You don't know me from Adam. How could you possibly know what would run me out of a church?

Hi Dabowhunter,

Well, to be honest, and in answering your question, I'd gather that simply by reading your OP we get a hint at what runs you out of churches as you share your personal convictions.

Here is the OP:

Hi Everybody:wavey:
I am new here but have been Saved by the Grace of the Lord Jesus for many years. Sad to say I have not had a church home for quite a few years. Am now seriously looking for a church to Worship and grow in. Have always been in Baptist churches that taught sound doctrine and preached the Blood of Christ, had altar calls and sang the old standard hymns out of a hymnal.
Now I am finding that the local baptist church sings unfamiliar worship songs off large screens and the sermons are very weak in delivering a salvation message (no altar calls). Head pastor left a few months ago. Seems like the attendance most be down as over half the chairs are empty. Does this sound like a church that has gone purpose driven ?

You say you haven't had a church home for quite a few years, but are you attending at all?

You also state that you always belonged to a church that preached the blood, sang hymns, and taught sound doctrine. Now, going off of what you say here, you are looking for a church that preaches the blood, and that is great. You've mentioned this several times. Allow me to ask, when you go scope out a church, how long do you give that preacher to mention the blood in his message before you stop going, or decide not to go back? Let's ask ourselves what the NT example of church really is, not what we were used to, and if looking at the NT example we find a biblical example that transcends our concept and ideal, then that is a great find, and something to think about, as we would want our church to be what God designed it to be.

You mention unfamiliar worship songs. This is already touchy for so many in churches, but my friend, I'd gather that these are unknown to you for the fact that you haven't been in a home church for years. Also, you mention the songs being on screens. Tell me why that is unacceptable to you. Is it because of a passage of Scripture? Is it because you want it done 'the old fashioned way' and if it isn't, it is wrong? We must always remember worship songs are worship songs, or made to use in worship of God. Now, I've had a few songs I haven't cared for, but those out there singing, well, some of these fellow believers really worship God in them, so it can't always be about us. I think that is a form of giving and submitting to others that we can accept and practice. No harm done there.

Also keep in mind concerning messages, that in the NT church a big thing that needs to be addressed to those believers present is doctrine concerning their walk, keeping in mind that the NT Epistles were for that purpose, and to be shared, preached in churches, and there is not a lot about being saved in these epistles. So, you'll get a lot of these types of messages, which is OK, because they are following the intent of the NT epistles to equip believers, and to edify them (and I mean the biblical definition of edify, not the popular assumption). But I believe we should seek to always tie in the Gospel message to our messages.

I think that too often we expect the pastor to be preaching to the lost every service and it should always and only be evangelistic. I think we would be hard pressed to find examples of actual church gatherings that did this in the NT during a "church service." Remember that those "services" were about prayer, prayer for power, fellowship, continuing in doctrine, breaking of bread.

The saving work happens outside the church, as the church is a gathering of believers, sometimes people get saved in a service, and we all love when this happens, but the biggest mission field is outside those walls, and teaching doctrine to believers within the walls is a huge part and purpose of the church.

So we should be equipping believers for that work outside the walls, and lets be honest, not a lot of people in churches win others, or have much evangelistic zeal for the lost. Part of this huge problem is they are not being equipped in church, and what adds to it is a false belief in what church is all about in the first place.

I can bet that you've noticed a huge drop off in sound doctrine, and in believers having a good grasp of truth? Part ot that problem is that our churches haven't been designed by NT example, and haven't taught and trained the believers truth, doctrine &c.

It seems to me that here in the US and probably elsewhere, we look at church like going to a ball game. We sit back and watch and cheer on the one doing the work like we would at a ball game, we hope for a home run (a soul saved) and like fans of the home team, we go home and whine about our team if we didn't get that run and/or about other issues.

The "fans" have all the answers on what needs to be done, and it's all about what the "home team" needs to do while the fan base does nothing but look at stats, scores, and for reasons "they lost." This predicament has been created by a false belief in what church is all about, having been facilitated by church itself. This is a vicious cycle that desperately needs to change.

I hope you can find a church designed after the NT example that will be a blessing to you, and you to them, while equipping you for doing Gods will in your life.


- Peace

 

[gb93433]

Hi Everybody:wavey:
I am new here but have been Saved by the Grace of the Lord Jesus for many years. Sad to say I have not had a church home for quite a few years. Am now seriously looking for a church to Worship and grow in. Have always been in Baptist churches that taught sound doctrine and preached the Blood of Christ, had altar calls and sang the old standard hymns out of a hymnal.
Now I am finding that the local baptist church sings unfamiliar worship songs off large screens and the sermons are very weak in delivering a salvation message (no altar calls). Head pastor left a few months ago. Seems like the attendance most be down as over half the chairs are empty. Does this sound like a church that has gone purpose driven ?

The difference between a follower and a leader is that followers complain about the problems and expect someone else to do something about them. Leaders lead is solving the problems. Leaders are doers. Followers are complainers.

I have one question for you that has nothing to do with any church, but with you and your God. Who is living for Jesus Christ because of your life who is going on and reproducing themselves in the lives of others?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Out of curiosity....where is Menomonee Falls Wi?

 

[preachinjesus]

If you can find a copy of his Christmas special from a few years ago watch it. He never mentioned sin or salvation. He just kept saying Jesus came so we would not be lonely. He gutted the Gospel. For awhile it was up on there site but when I looked a few months ago it was down.

Perhaps that is your estimation of his delivery and message...but where do you get the ability to make such a judgment on another man? To say that a pastor "gutted the Gospel" is a pretty strong criticism. I just don't know if it something I would have the nerve to say about another minister.

He has welcomed new age people to speak. Not just an investigative discussion to test the spirits, but gave them a venue and endorsement. You can look back and see who he has had speak and investigate for yourself. Do not take my word for it.

Who are these "new age" people and what in the world does "new age" mean? Again you're making pretty strong criticisms of a man who has, by all accounts, a deep passion to know Christ and make Christ known.

The discipleship model at Saddleback has benefited thousands of churches and millions of Christians. It might not be for you (or me) but who are we to say that his model isn't helpful or beneficial?

As for speakers, Rick seems to desire to provide a platform for people who he knows benefits the larger Christian community and mostly because of their Christian commitment. One of the challenges is that this doesn't look like that traditional model of Baptistianity that too many people believe is the only way to do church. I'd have to see a list and see how it actually applies to his ministry.

I have watched Warren off and on for several years. We actually have mutual friends. It is heart breaking to see someone stray, especially someone that has such an opportunity to make such an impact.

From my encounters and experiences, Rick is leveraging a significant platform for influence that allows him special space to speak truth and the Gospel to very influential people. Though I might have reservations about some of his approaches in The Purpose Driven Life, I don't, for a second, think that it hasn't been helpful for the Kingdom of God. Rick and his ministry gets a lot of flack, but most of it built off second-hand criticisms. I'm not saying this is the case, completely, with your points but I am saying we need to allow a space for grace with men like him.

 

[glfredrick]

Out of curiosity....where is Menomonee Falls Wi?

Just north of Milwaukee, now basically a suburb of the city because of an unbroken line of city to that extent.

Very close to where I live and work. I live about 30 miles north of Menomonee Falls. My church is in Sheboygan, about mid-point between Milwaukee and Green Bay, right on the shores of Lake Michigan. I work on Milwaukee's north side, just a bit south of Menomonee Falls, so I pass through the area on a daily basis as I commute my 40 miles to work every day.

 

[DaChaser1]

Perhaps that is your estimation of his delivery and message...but where do you get the ability to make such a judgment on another man? To say that a pastor "gutted the Gospel" is a pretty strong criticism. I just don't know if it something I would have the nerve to say about another minister.



Who are these "new age" people and what in the world does "new age" mean? Again you're making pretty strong criticisms of a man who has, by all accounts, a deep passion to know Christ and make Christ known.

The discipleship model at Saddleback has benefited thousands of churches and millions of Christians. It might not be for you (or me) but who are we to say that his model isn't helpful or beneficial?

As for speakers, Rick seems to desire to provide a platform for people who he knows benefits the larger Christian community and mostly because of their Christian commitment. One of the challenges is that this doesn't look like that traditional model of Baptistianity that too many people believe is the only way to do church. I'd have to see a list and see how it actually applies to his ministry.



From my encounters and experiences, Rick is leveraging a significant platform for influence that allows him special space to speak truth and the Gospel to very influential people. Though I might have reservations about some of his approaches in The Purpose Driven Life, I don't, for a second, think that it hasn't been helpful for the Kingdom of God. Rick and his ministry gets a lot of flack, but most of it built off second-hand criticisms. I'm not saying this is the case, completely, with your points but I am saying we need to allow a space for grace with men like him.

Think that some of us are "skeptical" that while pastor Rick has done some good things for the church, that he at times appears to be accomdating too much those oppossed to the Gospl of Christ, as he does stress Gods love, but tends to shy away from the truth also of repentance and have to make a definite coming to Christ!

Also, at times have appeared to be too much in trying to find common ground to those other religions, alternate lifestyles etc!

 

[glfredrick]

Think that some of us are "skeptical" that while pastor Rick has done some good things for the church, that he at times appears to be accomdating too much those oppossed to the Gospl of Christ, as he does stress Gods love, but tends to shy away from the truth also of repentance and have to make a definite coming to Christ!

Also, at times have appeared to be too much in trying to find common ground to those other religions, alternate lifestyles etc!

So, he has not gotten on board with "old time religion..." :thumbs:

I am actually shocked that some think that Warren is "for" ANYTHING other than Jesus Christ and the gospel. That he is sure in his faith and knows Christ and can DISCUSS various taboo topics, even bring those speakers into his public forum, are a given but to draw a cause and effect argument from that practice into "Warren is accomodating to those opposed to the gospel" is really a stretch.

Take this apologetics series, for instance:

http://saddleback.com/resources/apologetics/

Or the core teachings of the church that all new members are required to take:

http://saddleback.com/mc/ms/abf99/

I'd love to see other churches doing that level of work! Many (perhaps most) meet on Sunday and their ownly purpose is to meet again next Sunday.

 

[DaChaser1]

So, he has not gotten on board with "old time religion..." :thumbs:

I am actually shocked that some think that Warren is "for" ANYTHING other than Jesus Christ and the gospel. That he is sure in his faith and knows Christ and can DISCUSS various taboo topics, even bring those speakers into his public forum, are a given but to draw a cause and effect argument from that practice into "Warren is accomodating to those opposed to the gospel" is really a stretch.

Take this apologetics series, for instance:

http://saddleback.com/resources/apologetics/

Or the core teachings of the church that all new members are required to take:

http://saddleback.com/mc/ms/abf99/

I'd love to see other churches doing that level of work! Many (perhaps most) meet on Sunday and their ownly purpose is to meet again next Sunday.

I am not putting down his attempts to serve the Lord and to haveHim preached/taught about in the church, just saying that at times appears to be too accomodating to try to find a mediating ground with unsaved/other religions/lifestyles!

 

[glfredrick]

I am not putting down his attempts to serve the Lord and to haveHim preached/taught about in the church, just saying that at times appears to be too accomodating to try to find a mediating ground with unsaved/other religions/lifestyles!

You mistake his approach to the lost versus the way he preaches/teaches to the redeemed.

The lost are under no compulsion to the gospel nor the Word. They are yet in their separation from God. Warren properly understands that FIRST we must get to them with the message of the gospel before God does the work that only He can do. Is it wrong to speak the truth in love, or must we go about as clanging gongs and crashing cymbals all the time while in the presence of the lost?

And how have those who do clang and crash build their churches? Are they building their churches? From the numbers I'd say not... Of course, there is a continuous effort to "spiritualize" this actual lack of effort in one of two ways, either the lost are not among the elect, and so not drawn to Christ or the church has not done a good enough job of "selling" the message of hellfire and damnation, and so have not convinced people to choose Christ. I'd suggest that both concepts are wrong in accordance with the Word of God and that what is really happening is that we have not actually done what God would have us do, turning rather to our own Pharisaical means then blaming God or Man for our failures. God forbid... When the case may be rather simple, we have not spoken the truth in love in a language that lost people can hear and understand so that the Holy Spirit can convict their hearts while they hear, "This is truth, heed God!"

 

[DaChaser1]

You mistake his approach to the lost versus the way he preaches/teaches to the redeemed.

The lost are under no compulsion to the gospel nor the Word. They are yet in their separation from God. Warren properly understands that FIRST we must get to them with the message of the gospel before God does the work that only He can do. Is it wrong to speak the truth in love, or must we go about as clanging gongs and crashing cymbals all the time while in the presence of the lost?

And how have those who do clang and crash build their churches? Are they building their churches? From the numbers I'd say not... Of course, there is a continuous effort to "spiritualize" this actual lack of effort in one of two ways, either the lost are not among the elect, and so not drawn to Christ or the church has not done a good enough job of "selling" the message of hellfire and damnation, and so have not convinced people to choose Christ. I'd suggest that both concepts are wrong in accordance with the Word of God and that what is really happening is that we have not actually done what God would have us do, turning rather to our own Pharisaical means then blaming God or Man for our failures. God forbid... When the case may be rather simple, we have not spoken the truth in love in a language that lost people can hear and understand so that the Holy Spirit can convict their hearts while they hear, "This is truth, heed God!"

I agree with all that you wrote, its still just seems that he preaches/teaches "basics" not the deeper things that God has for those who get saved by Him!

 

[gb93433]

So, he has not gotten on board with "old time religion..." :thumbs:

Reminds me of the time I pastored a chruch that had been ravaged by the KJVO people. When I came to pastor I started preaching from the Greek NT verse by verse through James. After a few weeks one of the KJVO men said that they could not figure out what Bible I preached from and so he asked me what Bible I preached from. I told him, "The Greek New Testament." He was speechless and walked away. Later he spoke to me and asked me about being KJVO. After some discussion that was going nowhere I told him to take his Bible and lead people to Jesus and make disciples. Now the ball was in his court. To my knowledge he did not reach anyone. At the same time there was a great lady about 70 in the congregation who was retired and did lead people to Christ. She told people that she preferred her KJV Bible and had reasons why. I never had an issue with her because her reasons were personal and not something she pushed on anyone else.

Not one KJVO ever led anyone to Christ or discipled anyone while I was there. I tried to accommodate them as I would anyone else. I would call on them to pray as I would someone else. The problem was that they were so interested in their KJVO agenda that they did not win people to Christ and make disciples. In my prayer time I asked God to remove them or that they would get on board and make disciples. Within a period of one year everyone of them were gone. Everyone of them moved to a new location for their job and the closest distance was about 400 miles.

 

[gb93433]

You mistake his approach to the lost versus the way he preaches/teaches to the redeemed.

The lost are under no compulsion to the gospel nor the Word. They are yet in their separation from God. Warren properly understands that FIRST we must get to them with the message of the gospel before God does the work that only He can do.

I agree 100%. I am challenged by him. When I spoke with him personally I was also challenged not only by the words he said but by the person he is.

It seems to me that Warren is highly focused on evangelism and going that it may appear he is hallow. Evangelists are often accused of that. His story is that he wanted to be a missionary in Japan but God would not let him.

Years ago a man challenged me to preach what Jesus taught. I quickly realized that I was accused of lacking depth in my sermons. One time I tried something new and preached what Jesus preached and did not announce the text. I did change it up some though. It was amazing at what some said. I was told by some that it was a shallow sermon. When confronted by some men in the church I pointed to the words Jesus preached in my Bible. They walked away red faced and did not say one word after that. They had been embarrassed by their ignorance. Jesus did not have a problem and neither will we with those who want to grow and be obedient. However those who only want intellectual knowledge will rise up as vipers. When that happens it is easy to tell who the obedient are.

 

[glfredrick]

I agree with all that you wrote, its still just seems that he preaches/teaches "basics" not the deeper things that God has for those who get saved by Him!

If you think that you have not seen his 201, 301, and 401 level discipleship and coursework.

Most people are only exposed to the very beginning work that Saddleback and Warren present because the rest requires that one is actually a covenant member of Saddleback Church.

 

[gb93433]

I agree with all that you wrote, its still just seems that he preaches/teaches "basics" not the deeper things that God has for those who get saved by Him!

That is a common complaint by some people in a congregation where the pastor and people reach others and make disciples. I have heard those complaints. I heard one of those complaints from a visitor one time. So I invited him to a Bible study I led at my home for leaders and prospective leaders. By the time we were done the people would have read the entire Bible in 26 weeks and read and filled about about five hundred pages of material. They told me it took them about 7 hours per week. The week he came to the Bible study the people would have read Isaiah and answered the questions. At the end he mentioned how he could see we were serious. He never returned. In addition we went and knocked on doors once a month and I took some of the men with me each week to train them. BY the end of about one year every person in that group had started a ministry to reach people in the community.

James 1:22 says that if one is not a doer he is deluded. I believe there are more deceived people than we can imagine simply because so many are only interested in intellectual knowledge but not doing everything Jesus commanded. Too many equate intellectual knowledge with spirituality. Satan knows scripture.

If one is reaching people then the sermon must be given to encourage and help them. The mature believer sees what is happening and feeds himself. Babies need to be fed not the mature. In the world the parents feed their children but the parents feed themselves.

Go through the Gospels and see the trouble Jesus was given and see if there is anything that was difficult to understand. The estimates are that about 1-2% could read and write. Are we any more mature than Jesus' disciples?Are we any more obedient? Do we know the mysteries of the faith because we are doers of the word?

I am unable to find that we will know the deeper things of God until we are doers and are led by Him even when it makes no sense such as the prophets did.

About one year ago a young man whose dad is a pastor told me that I needed to get deeper. At the time I was preaching through James. So I asked him if he would like to meet and I found out that he had never reached anyone and he also told of the troubles he had with other people. I found him to be the watchdog of doctrine and practice but he himself had not reached one person. He always knew the correct answer and knew what was always the correct way of making disciples but the problem was that the man was ignorant on how to interpret scripture that it was sad and he I realized that after meeting him for about six months each week that he was about as far along in growth as I had typically seen among those who were new Christians for about 3 weeks.

 

[preachinjesus]

If you think that you have not seen his 201, 301, and 401 level discipleship and coursework.

Most people are only exposed to the very beginning work that Saddleback and Warren present because the rest requires that one is actually a covenant member of Saddleback Church.

This is exactly what I was going to say. I really think that so many criticisms of Rick are directed at second hand, bad information, that never has checked with what Rick teaches.

He is, as gb said, a very nice and authentic guy. Very passionate and personable. Just because he doesn't talk like some or dress like some doesn't mean he doesn't believe like most.

And maybe the best thing about him...he doesn't care what outsiders think.

 

[gb93433]

This is exactly what I was going to say. I really think that so many criticisms of Rick are directed at second hand, bad information, that never has checked with what Rick teaches.

He is, as gb said, a very nice and authentic guy. Very passionate and personable. Just because he doesn't talk like some or dress like some doesn't mean he doesn't believe like most.

And maybe the best thing about him...he doesn't care what outsiders think.

He has refused from the beginning to have the services broadcasted on TV because he wants to be a ministry not a celebrity. I think that says a lot about his focus. Has anyone ever noticed how much money some churches spend on TV and satellite?

 

[glfredrick]

This is exactly what I was going to say. I really think that so many criticisms of Rick are directed at second hand, bad information, that never has checked with what Rick teaches.

He is, as gb said, a very nice and authentic guy. Very passionate and personable. Just because he doesn't talk like some or dress like some doesn't mean he doesn't believe like most.

And maybe the best thing about him...he doesn't care what outsiders think.

And, he has, under the Lord's guidance, built up the single largest community of believers in America who have weilded gospel influence on countless others around the world. He has caused more churches to be planted than many denominational efforts and the population of his congregation almost single-handedly exceeds the population of some of the sects and denominations represented on this board.

That's why some feel that he must have "cheated" somehow, for they cannot seem to do likewise. What they fail to realize, however, is that the PEOPLE outside the church do not HAVE to modify their own culture to enter in or hear what the church says. They can go about their own lives in their own way and not give a rip about that sort of church. Warren realized early on that the CHURCH must modify ITS culture (not the gospel -- the two are not one and the same!) in order to speak to and into the community. That is why what he is doing is successful.

We TRAIN our missionaries to do that same thing across the ocean -- teaching them the new langauge and culture of the people they are trying to reach so they actually CAN reach them -- but when someone uses that missional technique here in America, they are somehow "watering down the gospel" and "cheating" just to draw a crowd. Weird, huh?