Purpose Driven ?

[Dabowhunter]

Hi Dabowhunter,

Well, to be honest, and in answering your question, I'd gather that simply by reading your OP we get a hint at what runs you out of churches as you share your personal convictions.

Here is the OP:




You say you haven't had a church home for quite a few years, but are you attending at all? Why yes, that was the basis of my post:wavey:

You also state that you always belonged to a church that preached the blood, sang hymns, and taught sound doctrine. Now, going off of what you say here, you are looking for a church that preaches the blood, and that is great. You've mentioned this several times. Allow me to ask, when you go scope out a church, how long do you give that preacher to mention the blood in his message before you stop going, or decide not to go back? Let's ask ourselves what the NT example of church really is, not what we were used to, and if looking at the NT example we find a biblical example that transcends our concept and ideal, then that is a great find, and something to think about, as we would want our church to be what God designed it to be.
You make some valid points. And to answer your question I give them several weeks.
You mention unfamiliar worship songs. This is already touchy for so many in churches, but my friend, I'd gather that these are unknown to you for the fact that you haven't been in a home church for years. Also, you mention the songs being on screens. Tell me why that is unacceptable to you. Is it because of a passage of Scripture? Is it because you want it done 'the old fashioned way' and if it isn't, it is wrong? We must always remember worship songs are worship songs, or made to use in worship of God. Now, I've had a few songs I haven't cared for, but those out there singing, well, some of these fellow believers really worship God in them, so it can't always be about us. I think that is a form of giving and submitting to others that we can accept and practice. No harm done there.
I have nothing against the use of the screen or the songs they use. I really only want to be blessed with a few of the standards that have stood the test of time and are dear to my heart!
Also keep in mind concerning messages, that in the NT church a big thing that needs to be addressed to those believers present is doctrine concerning their walk, keeping in mind that the NT Epistles were for that purpose, and to be shared, preached in churches, and there is not a lot about being saved in these epistles. So, you'll get a lot of these types of messages, which is OK, because they are following the intent of the NT epistles to equip believers, and to edify them (and I mean the biblical definition of edify, not the popular assumption). But I believe we should seek to always tie in the Gospel message to our messages.
Can't disagree with you on these points. The thing is that the Sunday morning service is usualy the one with the most visitors and regardless of the sermon topic most good preachers can tie in a salvation message at the end.
I think that too often we expect the pastor to be preaching to the lost every service and it should always and only be evangelistic. I think we would be hard pressed to find examples of actual church gatherings that did this in the NT during a "church service." Remember that those "services" were about prayer, prayer for power, fellowship, continuing in doctrine, breaking of bread. Yes but if the NT churches were small groups meeting in homes that would possibly be the core of believers meeting. As opposeded to preaching in public areas where there are concentrations of the lost. In these times most churches have open doors and advertise in papers, have large signs etc.
with the intent of having visitors.
The saving work happens outside the church, as the church is a gathering of believers, sometimes people get saved in a service, and we all love when this happens, but the biggest mission field is outside those walls, and teaching doctrine to believers within the walls is a huge part and purpose of the church.

So we should be equipping believers for that work outside the walls, and lets be honest, not a lot of people in churches win others, or have much evangelistic zeal for the lost. Part of this huge problem is they are not being equipped in church, and what adds to it is a false belief in what church is all about in the first place.

I can bet that you've noticed a huge drop off in sound doctrine, and in believers having a good grasp of truth? Part ot that problem is that our churches haven't been designed by NT example, and haven't taught and trained the believers truth, doctrine &c.
Very true, Very sad:BangHead:
It seems to me that here in the US and probably elsewhere, we look at church like going to a ball game. We sit back and watch and cheer on the one doing the work like we would at a ball game, we hope for a home run (a soul saved) and like fans of the home team, we go home and whine about our team if we didn't get that run and/or about other issues.

The "fans" have all the answers on what needs to be done, and it's all about what the "home team" needs to do while the fan base does nothing but look at stats, scores, and for reasons "they lost." This predicament has been created by a false belief in what church is all about, having been facilitated by church itself. This is a vicious cycle that desperately needs to change.

I hope you can find a church designed after the NT example that will be a blessing to you, and you to them, while equipping you for doing Gods will in your life.
Thank you, I apprecitate your time and effort!

- Peace

Thanks Again

 

[DaChaser1]

And, he has, under the Lord's guidance, built up the single largest community of believers in America who have weilded gospel influence on countless others around the world. He has caused more churches to be planted than many denominational efforts and the population of his congregation almost single-handedly exceeds the population of some of the sects and denominations represented on this board.

That's why some feel that he must have "cheated" somehow, for they cannot seem to do likewise. What they fail to realize, however, is that the PEOPLE outside the church do not HAVE to modify their own culture to enter in or hear what the church says. They can go about their own lives in their own way and not give a rip about that sort of church. Warren realized early on that the CHURCH must modify ITS culture (not the gospel -- the two are not one and the same!) in order to speak to and into the community. That is why what he is doing is successful.

We TRAIN our missionaries to do that same thing across the ocean -- teaching them the new langauge and culture of the people they are trying to reach so they actually CAN reach them -- but when someone uses that missional technique here in America, they are somehow "watering down the gospel" and "cheating" just to draw a crowd. Weird, huh?

2 points...

Think some as myself have NOT seen the additional materials that he publishes , for the "deeper walk", as my church went through the Purpose Driven life campaign last year, but have not yet seen that deeper disclpleship material!
Also, think we at times tend to see him as part of the modern 'seeker" movement , that has produced large coverts , but shallow teaching to spiritual growth, IMHO!

 

[gb93433]

And, he has, under the Lord's guidance, built up the single largest community of believers in America who have wielded gospel influence on countless others around the world. He has caused more churches to be planted than many denominational efforts and the population of his congregation almost single-handedly exceeds the population of some of the sects and denominations represented on this board.

That's why some feel that he must have "cheated" somehow, for they cannot seem to do likewise. What they fail to realize, however, is that the PEOPLE outside the church do not HAVE to modify their own culture to enter in or hear what the church says. They can go about their own lives in their own way and not give a rip about that sort of church. Warren realized early on that the CHURCH must modify ITS culture (not the gospel -- the two are not one and the same!) in order to speak to and into the community. That is why what he is doing is successful.

We TRAIN our missionaries to do that same thing across the ocean -- teaching them the new langauge and culture of the people they are trying to reach so they actually CAN reach them -- but when someone uses that missional technique here in America, they are somehow "watering down the gospel" and "cheating" just to draw a crowd. Weird, huh?

Seems like Jesus dealt with similar issues among the proud religious leaders of the day.

Isn't it amazing how many critics are not reaching anyone but they know how to tell others how to reach people doing it "the right way".

As I get older and grow more the more I see some things as very important others as unimportant. I used to think having right doctrine was the most important until I realized what I had been doing when I discipled people. I got to know them and spent a lot of time with them often doing fun things. We did a lot of ministry but we also did a lot of relational things too. For years men lived in my home and we worked together and had lots of discussions around the table. We had lots of big gatherings to eat where everyone brought something and anyone they wanted to bring was invited too. I also realized over the years how wrong I have been on some things that I was confident that I knew well. But now that is a different story. I realize now that all I can do is reveal where I am in my walk with God now at this point in time.

 

[preacher4truth]

Thanks Again

You're welcome bro.

- Peace

 

[glfredrick]

2 points...

Think some as myself have NOT seen the additional materials that he publishes , for the "deeper walk", as my church went through the Purpose Driven life campaign last year, but have not yet seen that deeper disclpleship material!
Also, think we at times tend to see him as part of the modern 'seeker" movement , that has produced large coverts , but shallow teaching to spiritual growth, IMHO!

Saddleback is not actually "seeker driven" but rather "seeker sensitive." For a seeker driven model we would want to look to Joel Olsteen or Willow Creek, with Willow Creek being the more biblical of the two (Olsteen never actually gets around to the gospel part, Willow Creek does, but one has to become an insider to even get that far).

 

[DaChaser1]

Saddleback is not actually "seeker driven" but rather "seeker sensitive." For a seeker driven model we would want to look to Joel Olsteen or Willow Creek, with Willow Creek being the more biblical of the two (Olsteen never actually gets around to the gospel part, Willow Creek does, but one has to become an insider to even get that far).

Thanks for the info, as those various ways, models, of church growth and salvation do tend to all get lumped together!