• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Is it God or Jesus who really saves sinners?

C

convicted1

Guest
I ask this question in all honesty. There was a thread in another forum that had to do with modalism. I asked this question to Brother P4T, and he suggested I start a thread about this. I ask this in the Baptist Forum, knowing that more people peruse here, and therefore, I will probably get a bigger and better response.


A few years ago, I was struggling with how to view the Trinity. When I was saved, I saw it as God only, much the same way the Oneness people see it as Jesus only. It was that I had God as One being manifested in three ways, not three distinctive Persons, as I have come to see the Trinity now. A fellow I worked with, he would probably be labelled a modalist, in that he sees the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as three entirely different Persons, and that God is God, Jesus is the Son of God, therefore not God, just His Son, and the Holy Ghost as the Holy Ghost, and not God. He stated that God saves, and that Jesus doesn't. From his approach, He is limiting Jesus' power to a certain extent, I think.

So, does God or Jesus save? I think it is Jesus, in that He stated that all the Father gives me to, will come unto me, and I will raise him up on the last day. Doesn't this sound like Jesus' work in saving people? I really want y'alls responses to this thread. Thanks again in advance!!!
 
L

Luke2427

Active Member
convicted1 said:
I ask this question in all honesty. There was a thread in another forum that had to do with modalism. I asked this question to Brother P4T, and he suggested I start a thread about this. I ask this in the Baptist Forum, knowing that more people peruse here, and therefore, I will probably get a bigger and better response.


A few years ago, I was struggling with how to view the Trinity. When I was saved, I saw it as God only, much the same way the Oneness people see it as Jesus only. It was that I had God as One being manifested in three ways, not three distinctive Persons, as I have come to see the Trinity now. A fellow I worked with, he would probably be labelled a modalist, in that he sees the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as three entirely different Persons, and that God is God, Jesus is the Son of God, therefore not God, just His Son, and the Holy Ghost as the Holy Ghost, and not God. He stated that God saves, and that Jesus doesn't. From his approach, He is limiting Jesus' power to a certain extent, I think.

So, does God or Jesus save? I think it is Jesus, in that He stated that all the Father gives me to, will come unto me, and I will raise him up on the last day. Doesn't this sound like Jesus' work in saving people? I really want y'alls responses to this thread. Thanks again in advance!!!
Click to expand...

Did Willis or Convicted start this thread?
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Willis
check this out
Chapter 2: Of God and of the Holy Trinity
1._____The Lord our God is but one only living and true God; whose subsistence is in and of himself, infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but himself; a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; who is immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, every way infinite, most holy, most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him, and withal most just and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.
( 1 Corinthians 8:4, 6; Deuteronomy 6:4; Jeremiah 10:10; Isaiah 48:12; Exodus 3:14; John 4:24; 1 Timothy 1:17; Deuteronomy 4:15, 16; Malachi 3:6; 1 Kings 8:27; Jeremiah 23:23; Psalms 90:2; Genesis 17:1; Isaiah 6:3; Psalms 115:3; Isaiah 46:10; Proverbs 16:4; Romans 11:36; Exodus 34:6, 7; Hebrews 11:6; Nehemiah 9:32, 33; Psalms 5:5, 6; Exodus 34:7; Nahum 1:2, 3 )
2._____God, having all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself, is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creature which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; he is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things, and he hath most sovereign dominion over all creatures, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth; in his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain; he is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands; to him is due from angels and men, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience, as creatures they owe unto the Creator, and whatever he is further pleased to require of them.
( John 5:26; Psalms 148:13; Psalms 119:68; Job 22:2, 3; Romans 11:34-36; Daniel 4:25, 34, 35; Hebrews 4:13; Ezekiel 11:5; Acts 15:18; Psalms 145:17; Revelation 5:12-14 )

3._____ In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him.
( 1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Exodus 3:14; John 14:11; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:14,18; John 15:26; Galatians 4:6 )


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:thumbsup:
 
C

convicted1

Guest
Iconoclast said:
Willis
check this out
Chapter 2: Of God and of the Holy Trinity
1._____The Lord our God is but one only living and true God; whose subsistence is in and of himself, infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but himself; a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; who is immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, every way infinite, most holy, most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him, and withal most just and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.
( 1 Corinthians 8:4, 6; Deuteronomy 6:4; Jeremiah 10:10; Isaiah 48:12; Exodus 3:14; John 4:24; 1 Timothy 1:17; Deuteronomy 4:15, 16; Malachi 3:6; 1 Kings 8:27; Jeremiah 23:23; Psalms 90:2; Genesis 17:1; Isaiah 6:3; Psalms 115:3; Isaiah 46:10; Proverbs 16:4; Romans 11:36; Exodus 34:6, 7; Hebrews 11:6; Nehemiah 9:32, 33; Psalms 5:5, 6; Exodus 34:7; Nahum 1:2, 3 )
2._____God, having all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself, is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creature which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; he is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things, and he hath most sovereign dominion over all creatures, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth; in his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain; he is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands; to him is due from angels and men, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience, as creatures they owe unto the Creator, and whatever he is further pleased to require of them.
( John 5:26; Psalms 148:13; Psalms 119:68; Job 22:2, 3; Romans 11:34-36; Daniel 4:25, 34, 35; Hebrews 4:13; Ezekiel 11:5; Acts 15:18; Psalms 145:17; Revelation 5:12-14 )

3._____ In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him.
( 1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Exodus 3:14; John 14:11; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:14,18; John 15:26; Galatians 4:6 )


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:thumbsup:
Click to expand...



Gotcha!!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
 
C

convicted1

Guest
Right here shows everyone that I am in here to learn from my Brothers, whether they be Calvinists, or not. Sure, there have been times I started a thread to prove a point-I think we all have been guilty of doing this-but most of the times, I hunger to learn more about Him!!
 
L

Luke2427

Active Member
Iconoclast said:
Willis
check this out
Chapter 2: Of God and of the Holy Trinity
1._____The Lord our God is but one only living and true God; whose subsistence is in and of himself, infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but himself; a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; who is immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, every way infinite, most holy, most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him, and withal most just and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.
( 1 Corinthians 8:4, 6; Deuteronomy 6:4; Jeremiah 10:10; Isaiah 48:12; Exodus 3:14; John 4:24; 1 Timothy 1:17; Deuteronomy 4:15, 16; Malachi 3:6; 1 Kings 8:27; Jeremiah 23:23; Psalms 90:2; Genesis 17:1; Isaiah 6:3; Psalms 115:3; Isaiah 46:10; Proverbs 16:4; Romans 11:36; Exodus 34:6, 7; Hebrews 11:6; Nehemiah 9:32, 33; Psalms 5:5, 6; Exodus 34:7; Nahum 1:2, 3 )
2._____God, having all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself, is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creature which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; he is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things, and he hath most sovereign dominion over all creatures, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth; in his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain; he is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands; to him is due from angels and men, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience, as creatures they owe unto the Creator, and whatever he is further pleased to require of them.
( John 5:26; Psalms 148:13; Psalms 119:68; Job 22:2, 3; Romans 11:34-36; Daniel 4:25, 34, 35; Hebrews 4:13; Ezekiel 11:5; Acts 15:18; Psalms 145:17; Revelation 5:12-14 )

3._____ In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him.
( 1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Exodus 3:14; John 14:11; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:14,18; John 15:26; Galatians 4:6 )


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Apart from the Bible, it may be that no better words have ever been written than these.
 
C

convicted1

Guest
Luke2427 said:
That's not exactly my point.

Jesus is God.

It is inappropriate to say did God OR Jesus do something?

I think what you mean is- Did God the Father or God the Son...?

That would be a better way of putting it in my opinion.
Click to expand...

I dunno. God the Son=Jesus. Jesus=God the Son. To ask the question using God the Son or Jesus, I would still be referring to the same One, imo.
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Luke2427 said:
Apart from the Bible, it may be that no better words have ever been written than these.
Click to expand...

While there are some things in the confessions I might have questions about...the fact is they took much time to word the confession in a way that is very hard to improve upon. They had respect unto God and His word...so they were very careful to honor God....each sentence is saturated with scriptural teaching.
 
L

Luke2427

Active Member
convicted1 said:
I dunno. God the Son=Jesus. Jesus=God the Son. To ask the question using God the Son or Jesus, I would still be referring to the same One, imo.
Click to expand...

Your question is- Does God OR Jesus save.

It doesn't make sense worded that way because Jesus is God.

It would make better sense if it were worded this way, "Does the Father or the Son save?"
 
C

convicted1

Guest
Luke2427 said:
Your question is- Does God OR Jesus save.

It doesn't make sense worded that way because Jesus is God.

It would make better sense if it were worded this way, "Does the Father or the Son save?"
Click to expand...

The reason why I asked this the way I did, was because that was the way it was presented to me. This fellow said that only God saves, and Jesus doesn't.


Now, apparently he is a modalist, so this question being asked, may be skewed a bit. But that is why I presented this question the way I did.


Okay, for the sake of clarity, does the Father or Son save sinners?
 
L

Luke2427

Active Member
convicted1 said:
The reason why I asked this the way I did, was because that was the way it was presented to me. This fellow said that only God saves, and Jesus doesn't.


Now, apparently he is a modalist, so this question being asked, may be skewed a bit. But that is why I presented this question the way I did.


Okay, for the sake of clarity, does the Father or Son save sinners?
Click to expand...

As is the case with most great doctrines- it's not that simple.

Each person of the godhead partakes in our salvation.

This is why seminaries exist. Bible doctrines are more often than not extremely complex.

I am finishing up my sermon for this morning right now. I am preaching through the book of Acts. I have come to Acts 15 where the first Church Council was conducted.

Here are men who have sat at the Master's feet and been trained by the greatest Professor of Theology of all time.

Yet verse 6-7 says, "And the Apostles and elders came together for the consider of this matter. And when there had been MUCH DISPUTING..."

Even the apostles had to hash these things out.

Doctrine is difficult.

If it sounds like it ought to be a bumper sticker- it's probably dangerously over simplified.

If a man is called to preach and he can't get a degree- let him preach the basics and God can use him.

But when we want to go to "leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity," (Hebrews 6:1) then we'd better pursue a great deal of training.

All of the Apostles had a great deal of training- and even they struggled with the complexity of Bible doctrines.

It is not good for us to think that we are wiser than they were- especially without any real theological training whatsoever.

The question you are asking cannot be answered pithily or with a one liner.

It is complex.
 
F

freeatlast

New Member
convicted1 said:
I ask this question in all honesty. There was a thread in another forum that had to do with modalism. I asked this question to Brother P4T, and he suggested I start a thread about this. I ask this in the Baptist Forum, knowing that more people peruse here, and therefore, I will probably get a bigger and better response.


A few years ago, I was struggling with how to view the Trinity. When I was saved, I saw it as God only, much the same way the Oneness people see it as Jesus only. It was that I had God as One being manifested in three ways, not three distinctive Persons, as I have come to see the Trinity now. A fellow I worked with, he would probably be labelled a modalist, in that he sees the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as three entirely different Persons, and that God is God, Jesus is the Son of God, therefore not God, just His Son, and the Holy Ghost as the Holy Ghost, and not God. He stated that God saves, and that Jesus doesn't. From his approach, He is limiting Jesus' power to a certain extent, I think.

So, does God or Jesus save? I think it is Jesus, in that He stated that all the Father gives me to, will come unto me, and I will raise him up on the last day. Doesn't this sound like Jesus' work in saving people? I really want y'alls responses to this thread. Thanks again in advance!!!
Click to expand...

I think you are trying too hard to figure God out and it is causing you distress. The answer to your question "does God or Jesus save" is YES! There is no difference between God and Jesus. They are one and the same.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
P

preacher4truth

Active Member
freeatlast said:
I think you are trying too hard to figure God out and it is causing you distress. The answer you your question "does God or Jesus save" is YES! There is no difference between God and Jesus. They are one and the same.
Click to expand...

The whole entire premise of the question lies within the co-workers belief that Christ isn't God, or of course, denial of the Deity of Christ.

From this false premise comes an errant conclusion. To bottom line his thoughts, he has a Jesus that literally cannot save. This is a different Jesus than the one in the Bible folks.

Clearly Jesus came to seek and to save the lost, Luke 19:10, and to save His people from their sins, Matthew 1:21 &c.

- Peace
 
Last edited by a moderator:
S

seekingthetruth

New Member
Luke2427 said:
Did Willis or Convicted start this thread?
Click to expand...

Why do you have to be a smart aleck when a brother asks an honest question?

All of us don't have the educational, theological, and "historic church" background that you do.

I think instead of calling you Luke, or Rick....I will now address you as "Your Highness".

John
 
P

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I will post this as relevant for I believe it to be, and you all can decide.

Rev 13:8 The Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. (Whenever that was.)
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; (Whenever that was.)

Was this promise of God made for the first man Adam OR was it made for the last Adam the only begotten son of God, the man child Jesus born of the virgin Mary?

Was Jesus actually begotten and died or was Jesus God morphed as a man child.

Just how did God bring salvation for man?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top