Is it God or Jesus who really saves sinners?

[convicted1]

I think you are trying too hard to figure God out and it is causing you distress. The answer to your question "does God or Jesus save" is YES! There is no difference between God and Jesus. They are one and the same.

This question I asked, was in reference to what a co-worker stated to me. He said that God saves, and Jesus does not. Therefore, he has made Jesus less than God/not God. He stated this, that Jesus was the Son, but not God.

Now, I hope/pray/trust this clears up why I asked this. I see Them all Three in salvation.

 

[convicted1]

The whole entire premise of the question lies within the co-workers belief that Christ isn't God, or of course, denial of the Deity of Christ.

From this false premise comes an errant conclusion. To bottom line his thoughts, he has a Jesus that literally cannot save. This is a different Jesus than the one in the Bible folks.

Clearly Jesus came to seek and to save the lost, Luke 19:10, and to save His people from their sins, Matthew 1:21 &c.

- Peace

Very well stated!! Thanks for the "backup". We Raiders' fans need to stick up for one another, ya know?

 

[freeatlast]

This question I asked, was in reference to what a co-worker stated to me. He said that God saves, and Jesus does not. Therefore, he has made Jesus less than God/not God. He stated this, that Jesus was the Son, but not God.

Now, I hope/pray/trust this clears up why I asked this. I see Them all Three in salvation.

Thank you for the clarification. Is this person a JW? No matter I would point him to two verses in the bible and let the word speak to him and if he still does not agree that Jesus is God then he is not a Christian.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

If he reads those two and still insists that Jesus is not God then He does not have the Spirit and is lost. What would then need to be done is deal with him about salvation.

 

[convicted1]

Thank you for the clarification. Is this person a JW? No matter I would point him to two verses in the bible and let the word speak to him and if he still does not agree that Jesus is God then he is not a Christian.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

He is a baptist. At one time, he was in a Enterprise Baptist church. A close friend of his was the pastor there, and was very ill. He helped him out(I think he may have been an assistant pastor{interim?}), and after he left, I think he doesn't have his membership at any particular church, but visits differering churches.

If he reads those two and still insists that Jesus is not God then He does not have the Spirit and is lost. What would then need to be done is deal with him about salvation.

Well, you have no idea of whom I am talking about. He is a "literalist", and he "knows" everything. I really love this fellow, but I do not talk with in about the bible much anymore. When someone "knows" it all, there's no need to even bother.

 

[convicted1]

Thank you for the clarification. Is this person a JW? No matter I would point him to two verses in the bible and let the word speak to him and if he still does not agree that Jesus is God then he is not a Christian.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

If he reads those two and still insists that Jesus is not God then He does not have the Spirit and is lost. What would then need to be done is deal with him about salvation.

He called what he believed "polytheistic", whereas the rest of us were "monotheistic".

 

[convicted1]

Thank you for the clarification. Is this person a JW? No matter I would point him to two verses in the bible and let the word speak to him and if he still does not agree that Jesus is God then he is not a Christian.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

If he reads those two and still insists that Jesus is not God then He does not have the Spirit and is lost. What would then need to be done is deal with him about salvation.

And furthermore, he has a degree from a seminary. I have never asked him where he went to, though. I wish I had......

 

[freeatlast]

And furthermore, he has a degree from a seminary. I have never asked him where he went to, though. I wish I had......

That is too bad as it means he is in serious willful error. He needs much prayer.

 

[Christos doulos]

I ask this question in all honesty. There was a thread in another forum that had to do with modalism. I asked this question to Brother P4T, and he suggested I start a thread about this. I ask this in the Baptist Forum, knowing that...........

My friend. If I understand you correctly, then this is an argument dealing with the personhood of Jesus Christ whether it is between Jehovah Witnesses, modalists, universalists. Universalist constantly use that it.s not as simple as a yes or no question, "Don't you believe God can save everyone?"

There is a misguided view where Jesus is used as some static tool by the Father to save mankind i.e. a doorstop. That Jesus Christ propped open the door by dying on the cross (or the illustration where Jesus is the bridge between man and the Father) and those who want to be with God can just step through that door, but really salvation is not some static happenstance. Salvation is an ongoing condition; the ongoing work of Jesus Christ in the believer, conforming us in His image; His likeness.

 

[DaChaser1]

I ask this question in all honesty. There was a thread in another forum that had to do with modalism. I asked this question to Brother P4T, and he suggested I start a thread about this. I ask this in the Baptist Forum, knowing that more people peruse here, and therefore, I will probably get a bigger and better response.


A few years ago, I was struggling with how to view the Trinity. When I was saved, I saw it as God only, much the same way the Oneness people see it as Jesus only. It was that I had God as One being manifested in three ways, not three distinctive Persons, as I have come to see the Trinity now. A fellow I worked with, he would probably be labelled a modalist, in that he sees the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as three entirely different Persons, and that God is God, Jesus is the Son of God, therefore not God, just His Son, and the Holy Ghost as the Holy Ghost, and not God. He stated that God saves, and that Jesus doesn't. From his approach, He is limiting Jesus' power to a certain extent, I think.

So, does God or Jesus save? I think it is Jesus, in that He stated that all the Father gives me to, will come unto me, and I will raise him up on the last day. Doesn't this sound like Jesus' work in saving people? I really want y'alls responses to this thread. Thanks again in advance!!!

Actually, it all THREE of the Godhead involved in saving us!

the Father send forth the Son to be born, conceived of/by the HS....
The HS empowered/annoited Son for his ministry...
The Son died as the sin bearer upon the Cross, the HS raised Him from the dead, and the Father tore the curtain, accepting the sacrifice of the Son, and applying that Grace towards those whom would come to Christ!

 

[Jon-Marc]

Jesus OR God? Jesus IS God! God is a Triune God--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. "In the beginning was the Word (Jesus before He was born on earth in human form), and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God." John 1:1

We are saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus the Christ--so I would say we are saved by both.

 

[convicted1]

Jesus OR God? Jesus IS God! God is a Triune God--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. "In the beginning was the Word (Jesus before He was born on earth in human form), and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God." John 1:1

We are saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus the Christ--so I would say we are saved by both.

Correct. I poorly worded the thread title.

I don't know if what the fellow believes would be considered Modalism or not. Because what He believes is that there's God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. God is God, Jesus is the Son of God(but not God), and the Holy Ghost is the Holy Ghost(and He's not God either). They are Three seperate Persons altogether, and not One manifested in three Persons.


Anyone else ever hear this belief before?

 

[DaChaser1]

Correct. I poorly worded the thread title.

I don't know if what the fellow believes would be considered Modalism or not. Because what He believes is that there's God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. God is God, Jesus is the Son of God(but not God), and the Holy Ghost is the Holy Ghost(and He's not God either). They are Three seperate Persons altogether, and not One manifested in three Persons.

Would NOT be christian understanding of the trinity, more akin to something like the Way would espouse!


they hold that God is the father, jesus was the word, that he was always in plans of God, not Himself God, and HG is a force...

JW also hold to that! So sounds like combo of some JW/Mormons/way all sprinkled together to make a definite cult sandwich!

Not Modualism, but more akin to something those other cults do hold and teach, as they all deny God as three in Godhead, but God and 2 lesser suborndinates!

Anyone else ever hear this belief before?

have indeed heard and read of it, but seems to be a mismatch combination of seperate cultic ideas that come together!

Still is heretical!