Who are the elect?

[Forest]

what saves either jew or gentile though?

Our "personal faith" that we choose to exercise in receiving Christ, or His election of us due to JUST His own Will?

Does it go faith , than God elects us based upon our response to Him

OR

does it go God first choses us, election, that results in us placing faith in jesus and get saved?

Our faith is not the cause of our eternal salvation.

 

[Forest]

God's Elect is Jesus Christ, the chosen Lamb of God to die for the sin of the world. We who are saved are grafted into His Election.

If you are saying that Jesus only is the elect then who were those that God choose before the foundation of the world in Eph 1? Who were those that God gave to Christ in John 6:37? I will admitt that when we are quickened by God we are quickened together with Christ, Eph 2:5. God has chosen an elect people and proves that by the incident of choosing Jacob over Easu, so that his election might stand.

 

[Forest]

I see Ephesians 1 as God's chosen being the OT Prophets, and the Disciples, etc. They were on an entirely different playing field than we were. God spoke to these verbally, whereas we hear Him speak through His written Word.

They were given power to raise the dead, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, make the lame to walk, the deaf to hear, etc. We don't have that power, but we do have the power of prayer.

Can you give us a scripture to back up what you see that Eph 1 includes in his choosing?

 

[Forest]

Yes, the who are elect needs first to address elected for what purpose of God? So the real topic is who are the elect for salvation! Not elect to be the Messiah, only Christ fills that bill, not elect to be a prophet of God, or a bad purpose like Judas, but for the purpose of salvation. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 tells us those individuals chosen for that purpose were chosen from the beginning not before the foundation of the world, and they were chosen by God in the Person of the Holy Spirit setting those individuals apart in Christ and those who were chosen were chosen based on God crediting their faith as righteousness.

Folks that throw in elections for other purposes are just throwing up smoke to cloud the issue.

Our faith is not the cause of our eternal salvation.

 

[jbh28]

I see Ephesians 1 as God's chosen being the OT Prophets, and the Disciples, etc. They were on an entirely different playing field than we were. God spoke to these verbally, whereas we hear Him speak through His written Word.

They were given power to raise the dead, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, make the lame to walk, the deaf to hear, etc. We don't have that power, but we do have the power of prayer.

Ephesians 1 is God choosing believers. I'm not really sure where you are getting the OT prophets and disciples from Ephesians 1.

"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." chosen for holiness(sanctification) and justification

Ephesians 1 is about Salvation. We see all three parts of the trinity playing key rolls with our salvation. The Father in verses 1-6, the Son in verse 7-13 and the Spirit in verses 13-14.

 

[convicted1]

Response to Brothers jbh28 and Forest.

Ephesians 1 is God choosing believers. I'm not really sure where you are getting the OT prophets and disciples from Ephesians 1.

"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." chosen for holiness(sanctification) and justification

Ephesians 1 is about Salvation. We see all three parts of the trinity playing key rolls with our salvation. The Father in verses 1-6, the Son in verse 7-13 and the Spirit in verses 13-14.

I made a "fruedian slip"; it was Romans 8 that I was referring to , but for some reason, I mixed that up with Ephesians 1.

Election starts and ends with Jesus Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. When we are saved, we are grafted into His Election. We were chosen in Him, not apart from Him. We are born in a sin cursed body, and that alone seperates us from Him. How can we be "in Him" from before the foundation of the world, and yet sinners?

 

[convicted1]

Our faith is not the cause of our eternal salvation.

W/O faith, it's impossible to please Him(Hebrews 11:6). W/O faith, you are w/o salvation. I agree that faith doesn't save, only Grace does. But faith is the "vessel" by which Grace travels.

 

[Van]

Reply to Forest

Our faith is not the cause of our eternal salvation.

That is right, we are saved by grace through faith, faith provides our access to the grace we stand in. When God credits our faith, as worthless as it may be, as righteousness, that means God has looked into our heart and determined we believe fully from the heart in Christ as Lord and Savior. So it is God's grace that saves us from receiving the justice we so richly deserve. Instead, God has mercy on those of His choosing. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 tells us God chooses those who have faith in the truth based on His assessment, not ours. Romans 5:2 says our faith provides our access to God's grace. And Romans 4:5 says it is God who credits (or not) our faith as righteousness.

 

[jbh28]

I made a "fruedian slip"; it was Romans 8 that I was referring to , but for some reason, I mixed that up with Ephesians 1.

Ok, I was wondering if you had some weird translation or something.

Election starts and ends with Jesus Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. When we are saved, we are grafted into His Election. We were chosen in Him, not apart from Him. We are born in a sin cursed body, and that alone seperates us from Him. How can we be "in Him" from before the foundation of the world, and yet sinners?

We were not in him before the foundation of the world. you are not in Christ until you are saved. We were chosen in him, but not in him yet. We were though the objects of the choosing. "Even as he chose us."

 

[Forest]

The author did an excellent job presenting his position biblically. I've maintained this for years here on the BB, that the "elect" in context (when referring to humans) refers to true Israel (not all Israel is Israel). The fact alone there are elect angels show a special subdivision among those who are the Lord's. It is mighty presumptious and haughty, IMO, for a believing gentile (who has been grafted in alongside the elect) to claim this moniker.

Forest...are you PB?

Israel is a type of God's elect. God even changed Jacob's name to Israel, Gen 32:28.

 

[Forest]

Completely illogical and void of context. Whosoever of believers will be saved? You are saying it should read "for God so loved believers that He gave His only Son, that whosoever (of the believers) believes will not perish but have eternal life"? Kind of redundant stating believers who believe will not perish.

The "whosoever" cannot be the natural man void of the Spirit according to 1 or 2:14. The natural man will not, and indeed, cannot believe in a spiritual God because without the Spirit he cannot descern spiritual things.

 

[jbh28]

The "whosoever" cannot be the natural man void of the Spirit according to 1 or 2:14. The natural man will not, and indeed, cannot believe in a spiritual God because without the Spirit he cannot descern spiritual things.

I would agree with webdog on the part about the whosoever of the world. It cannot be whosoever of the elect because those that believe are the elect. It's whosoever out of something larger. You are right that without the spirit, the natural man cannot come.

 

[kyredneck]

For the umpteenth time, there is no 'whosoever' in the literal rendering:

for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. Jn 3:16 YLT

 

[jbh28]

For the umpteenth time, there is no 'whosoever' in the literal rendering:

for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. Jn 3:16 YLT

there's nothing wrong with saying "whosoever" as far as the term goes. Whosoever simply means that anyone that believes. or everyone that believes. In other words, no one will believe and also perish. Whosoever doesn't mean that everyone will believe or can believe. If I say whosoever comes to my house tonight will get a cookie, that in no way implies that everyone has the ability to come to my house.

The issue with "whosoever" is when people say that election means that some will believe, yet because they are not elect will perish. This of course is not the doctrine of election.

 

[convicted1]

there's nothing wrong with saying "whosoever" as far as the term goes. Whosoever simply means that anyone that believes. or everyone that believes. In other words, no one will believe and also perish. Whosoever doesn't mean that everyone will believe or can believe. If I say whosoever comes to my house tonight will get a cookie, that in no way implies that everyone has the ability to come to my house.

The issue with "whosoever" is when people say that election means that some will believe, yet because they are not elect will perish. This of course is not the doctrine of election.

I don't know where you live, so will you mail me a cookie?? :laugh:



yummmmm, cookies!!!

 

[convicted1]

Ok, I was wondering if you had some weird translation or something.

I used the "OLT", Old's Literal Translation. It became outdated, I guess, and Young came along with the YLT. :laugh:

We were not in him before the foundation of the world. you are not in Christ until you are saved. We were chosen in him, but not in him yet. We were though the objects of the choosing. "Even as he chose us."

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Well, this verse states the "elect" were chosen in Him. How can we be in Him before the foundation of the world, and then be saved and placed in Him?

 

[Forest]

For the umpteenth time, there is no 'whosoever' in the literal rendering:

for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. Jn 3:16 YLT

In the King James version whosoever is used. A lot of the misguiding of the truth is caused by other versions of the bible. For example; Gal 2:16, the kjv says "we are justified by the faith "OF" Christ, and some other versions has changed it to say, we are justified by our faith "IN" Christ.

 

[Van]

The "whosoever" cannot be the natural man void of the Spirit according to 1 or 2:14. The natural man will not, and indeed, cannot believe in a spiritual God because without the Spirit he cannot descern spiritual things.

Forest, you need to read past 1 Corinthians 2:14 all the way through 1 Corinthians 3:3. You will see that Paul is saying the natural man cannot understand the meat of God's word, but men of flesh can understand the milk of the gospel. So your assertion is mistaken, in my opinion.

 

[Forest]

I would agree with webdog on the part about the whosoever of the world. It cannot be whosoever of the elect because those that believe are the elect. It's whosoever out of something larger. You are right that without the spirit, the natural man cannot come.

If you agree that the natural man cannot come, then that only leaves the elect because all those who are not of the natural man are his elect.

 

[Forest]

I used the "OLT", Old's Literal Translation. It became outdated, I guess, and Young came along with the YLT. :laugh:




4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Well, this verse states the "elect" were chosen in Him. How can we be in Him before the foundation of the world, and then be saved and placed in Him?

We were chosen by God before the foundation of the world and were predestinated to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ on the cross.