Who are the elect?

[convicted1]

JBH...

Go Reds!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[jbh28]

JBH...

Go Reds!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

sorry, but I was predestined to go for the Braves!

 

[convicted1]

sorry, but I was predestined to go for the Braves!

Well, then you were predestined to be a reprobate...

 

[Winman]

Van seems to love baseball. I guess we have something in common. Can't wait to watch some baseball games...

ok, back to the discussion..

Where me and other Calvinists are going to disagree is that we don't believe anyone will in their natural state ever want to come to him.

Well, the scriptures do show that natural men want to come to Christ.

Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

These are persons who are not righteous, but desire righteousness. They are the unregenerate. This is shown in many other verses of scripture.

This verse compares with Isa 51:1.

Isa 51:1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.

This verse directly speaks of people who seek the Lord.

Jhn 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

This verse refers to Isa 55:1.

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

This speaks of persons who thirst after God. First they incline their ear and hear, then they come, and then they LIVE. This is ALWAYS the order shown in scripture, first a man hears the word of God, then he believes, and only then is he made alive (see Eph 1:13).

Read in 2 Chron 15;

2 Chron 15:3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.
4 But when they in their trouble did turn unto the LORD God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them.

Notice Israel had been a long time without the true God, but when they turned unto him and sought him they found him.

2 Chron 15:12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;


2 Chron 15:15 And all Judah rejoiced at the oath: for they had sworn with all their heart, and sought him with their whole desire; and he was found of them: and the LORD gave them rest round about.

Israel was without the true God at this point in their history, but they sought him with all their heart, with all their soul, and with all their desire. And they found God.

I have shown you scripture that shows natural man is able to seek God, now show me scripture that says it is impossible for unregenerate man to seek the Lord.

Total Inability is false.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Looks like good evidence to me. :thumbs:

 

[Van]

Being a student of the Word, my team is ... Go Angels.

And yes AIC, the evidence found in the bible for unregenerate men to be seeking God is overwhelming. The T of Calvinism is a fiction.

And if you want to pile on, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 demonstrates limited spiritual ability is the only doctrine found in scripture. Natural men can lose what spiritual ability they have, they can harden their hearts or God can harden them, i.e. Romans 11, but what is taken away when a heart is hardened? Why the limited spiritual ability of the unregenerate. The truth seems so obvious to me, what I do not understand is why are all Calvinists unable to grasp this basic truth?

 

[Alive in Christ]

I dont undrstand it either. Its not hard to grasp.

 

[Forest]

Well, the scriptures do show that natural men want to come to Christ.

Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

These are persons who are not righteous, but desire righteousness. They are the unregenerate. This is shown in many other verses of scripture.

This verse compares with Isa 51:1.

Isa 51:1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.

This verse directly speaks of people who seek the Lord.

Jhn 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

This verse refers to Isa 55:1.

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

This speaks of persons who thirst after God. First they incline their ear and hear, then they come, and then they LIVE. This is ALWAYS the order shown in scripture, first a man hears the word of God, then he believes, and only then is he made alive (see Eph 1:13).

Read in 2 Chron 15;

2 Chron 15:3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.
4 But when they in their trouble did turn unto the LORD God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them.

Notice Israel had been a long time without the true God, but when they turned unto him and sought him they found him.

2 Chron 15:12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;


2 Chron 15:15 And all Judah rejoiced at the oath: for they had sworn with all their heart, and sought him with their whole desire; and he was found of them: and the LORD gave them rest round about.

Israel was without the true God at this point in their history, but they sought him with all their heart, with all their soul, and with all their desire. And they found God.

I have shown you scripture that shows natural man is able to seek God, now show me scripture that says it is impossible for unregenerate man to seek the Lord.

Total Inability is false.

As I have said before, you will never understand the grace of God until you understand the depravity of man. Every one of the scriptures that you have quoted are dealing with his elect and not with the natural man. You are not understanding 1 Cor 2:14, the natural man will not receive the things of the Spirit. He will not hunger and thrist after righteousness, Spiritual things are foolishness unto him. Ps 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countence , will not seek after God, God is not in all his thoughts.

 

[Forest]

Being a student of the Word, my team is ... Go Angels.

And yes AIC, the evidence found in the bible for unregenerate men to be seeking God is overwhelming. The T of Calvinism is a fiction.

And if you want to pile on, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 demonstrates limited spiritual ability is the only doctrine found in scripture. Natural men can lose what spiritual ability they have, they can harden their hearts or God can harden them, i.e. Romans 11, but what is taken away when a heart is hardened? Why the limited spiritual ability of the unregenerate. The truth seems so obvious to me, what I do not understand is why are all Calvinists unable to grasp this basic truth?

Your statement "The natural man can lose what spiritual ability he has. The truth is that the natural man never had any spiritual ability to lose.

 

[Forest]

1. Romans 8:13 says if we live by the Spirit we will live. While true, this as nothing to do with the issue. Ball one.

2. God did choose His elect before the foundation of the world, leaving aside whether He chose them corporately or individually. Strike one

3. God did not adopt His elect on the cross. He predestined His elect to adoption before the foundation of the world, again leaving aside whether He chose them corporately or individually. strike Two

4. Even no matter how garbled you make the claim, no charge can be brought against the elect, therefore individual election must occur after we have lived without mercy. Strike three.

5. Ephesians 1:13 clearly states were are put into Christ after we have believed, therefore we were not individually chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world.

6. We are regenerated, i.e. made alive, after we are put in Christ, for we are made alive together with Christ, and not when we are separated from Christ, Ephesians 2:5.

7. Yes, faithfulness is a fruit of the Spirit, but our faith provides our access to the grace we stand in before we are placed in Christ. We are saved by grace through faith, not we are saved by grace and given faith.

Forest, it appears you have been sold a bill of goods rather than trained to study the bible.

Eph 1:13, They trusted in Christ after they heard the truth in the gospel, which tells them how they were eternlly saved by Christ on the cross. The gospel does not save them eternally, niether does their believing, but only tells them how they were saved. Eph 2:5, Even when we were dead (spiritually dead) hath quickened us together with Christ. Puting us together with Christ is regeneration. Eph 2:8, For by grace ye are saved through (whose faith?) Christ's faith and not our faith, Gal 2:16. If you are saying that "corporately" means "all mankind" you are going to have to explain a lot of scriptures to me. John 6:37-41 tells us that Christ died only for those that his Father gave him, and he will not lose one of them. I am glade that you have confidence that you are a learned scholar of the bible, that makes the descussion much more interesting.

 

[Forest]

1 Corinthians 2:14 clearly says natural men, unregenerate men, men of flesh, cannot understand the things of the Spirit. And why is that, because he is not indwelt and those things are spiritually appraised. Thus whatever can be understood without being indwelt is not addressed in this verse. It only address what cannot be appraised without the Spirit. This is my understanding.

2. Now does this verse say all spiritual things, or only things of the Spirit that need to be appraised with the aid of the Spirit? You say all, but that is where you seem not to understand the verse.

3. In this same passage, 1 Corinthians 3:1 Paul says he must speak to these born again, indwelt babes in Christ as men of flesh. Why because they cannot yet understand the spiritual meat, but only milk. Therefore men of flesh can understand milk.

Forest, it appears you have been sold a bill of good, you need to learn how to study God's word, the truth is not buried.

Only a few of the elect are ready for the meat of the word. Most of God's children do not understand doctrine, which is evedenced from this forum. Isa 28:9, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk. When the elect are quickened to a spiritual life they do not get rid of the baggage of the flesh, but become both spiritual and flesh, thats why Paul is explaining the warfare within us. The natural man only has the fleshly nature. In 1 Cor 3:1, Paul is speaking to "babes in Christ" telling them that they are not yet ready to bear the meat. You say that the truth is not buried. Matt 11:25, I, thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,(is that you?), and hast revealed them unto babes. Maybe you should change some of my strikes to balls! To the natural nan the milk of the word is foolishness unto him.

 

[Forest]

Forest...



It means just what it says. It doesnt need any "interpretation".

But God, the Holy Spirit is in the business of "troubling" people, and "disturbing people", and "convicting" people.

And bringing them to thier senses.

And regarding those who, through no fault of there own, live their entire life outside of the hearing of the gosple, guess what?

God loves them too, and through the ministry of that same Holy Spirit they will be given an opportunity to accept, or reject. Gods loving drawing and wooing.

Thats simply the kind of God we have. The kind of God the scriptures proclaim.

The kind of God I serve is not a "wooing" God, but a God that accomplishes all of his will, Dan 4:35. If it was God's WILL to eternally save all mankind, then He would accomplish that will and save all mankind. The hearing of the gospel can bring about a deliverance (sALVATION) here in this world, but the hearing of the gospel will not eternally save anyone. Most of the salvation scriptures are pertaining to timely deliverances and are not talking about eternal salvation. All scripture must harmonise before you can understand the truth.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Forest...

You said...

Your statement "The natural man can lose what spiritual ability he has. The truth is that the natural man never had any spiritual ability to lose.

Thats interesting.

How do you account for the famous Helen Keller?

She was born completly deaf and completly blind. Thats total darkness and total silence her entire life.

When her teacher...who in my opinion must have been one ULTRA-extrordinary individual...said to Miss Keller..."Its now time for me to tell you about God....

Kellers response was, "Good. I have been thinking about him for a long time"

 

[Alive in Christ]

Forest...

I said...

And regarding those who, through no fault of there own, live their entire life outside of the hearing of the gosple, guess what?

God loves them too, and through the ministry of that same Holy Spirit they will be given an opportunity to accept, or reject. Gods loving drawing and wooing.

Thats simply the kind of God we have. The kind of God the scriptures proclaim.

And you said...

The kind of God I serve is not a "wooing" God, but a God that accomplishes all of his will,...

Than I dont think you really know God.

I am not saying you are not saved. You probably are.

But I dont think you (((KNOW))) God. Meaning knowing Him intimetly. You probably know Him as a heavenly computer, or the "Supreme Commander". or something like that. But I dont think you have learned to know him as Father.
I promise you. it will be a very good day when you get to that point.

God bless.

 

[Forest]

Forest;
Why do you assume you understood what I wrote? If you didn't understand what I meant all you had to do was ask what I meant, and I would have explained it to you.
I wrote;

I did not say every man would be saved I said;
"To be chosen means that Christ is the propitation for the whole world. Where is particular election in that? "
Daniel says nothing about election in verse 4:35. Nor does he express anything about Saving faith, hope, or grace. He is speaking about God's will and God is not willing that any perrish.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Since you mentioned all men being saved quite truthfully every man who follows after Christ will be saved. We all here on earth have been given a choice of whom to worship. There is no such thing as election to Salvation and my proof is you cannot show your particular election from scripture alone. With out taking verses out of text and hoping I won't notice that the passage is actually speaking about something else.

So your defense and distraction tatic is to accuse me of something I never said anything about. In the hope of course that you won't have to explain why particular election isn't in scripture. There simply is no Biblical support for election of Gentiles. The Jews are the only elect. We Gentile's have been grafted in and not elected. If Gentiles were elect they could not be until they are in Christ.

Generally I like to show where total depravity does not line up with scripture although election like total depravity is just more of the same false doctrine. As is the whole tulip.
MB

You agree that Dan 4:35 says that God accomplishes all his will. Then you say that God is not willing that any man perish. Sense we know that all mankind will not be housed in heaven, God does not accomplish all his will. Is that your thinking? All scripture must harmonise or you are not understanding the truth. In actuality, 2 Pet 3:9 has been missinterpreted by you. Look at 2 Pet 1 to see who Peter is talking to and it is "them that have obtained like precious faith". So Peter in 2 Pet 3:9 is talking to people who are already born again children of God. Peter is warning them that when they sin that they should repent of the sin so that they would not perish(lose their fellowship with God) not their eternal life. God does not want any of his elect to lose their fellowship with him. Peter is even including himself in the warning by using the word "us-ward". Eph 2:2-3 tells us how depravid man is before he has been quickened to life. How do you explain away "election" in reference to Romans 9:11? Isa 65:9, Isa 65:22, Matt 24:24, Matt 24:31, Luke 18:7, Rom 8:33, Col 3:1.

 

[Forest]

Brother Forest...



No. No at all. That is Universalism. We all know that Universalism is not true.

The scriptures proclaim that It is not Gods will that anyone be lost, but that all will come to repentance. (and be saved of course). That is not a statement of univeralism, but rather a statement of Gods "desire". God WANTS all to be saved, but He does not want robots...as Calvinism promotes.

He wants those who freely and joyfully WANT to be with Him. Its their choice, and God will never take away mans free will regarding this matter.

You say that there is scripture that states that God does not want anyone to be lost, but you didn't give me the scripture that you think says that, would you accomadate me? If its 2 Pet 3:9 I have explained that scripture many times, but if you missed it, I will explain again.

 

[Forest]

Forest...

You said...





Thats interesting.

How do you account for the famous Helen Keller?

She was born completly deaf and completly blind. Thats total darkness and total silentce her entire life.

When her teacher...who in my opinion must have been one ULTRA-extrordinary individual...said to Miss Keller..."Its now time for me to tell you about God....

Kellers response was, "Good. I have been thinking about him for a long time"

You are degrading God even more if you don't think that God can quicken a deaf and blind person. Hearing and believing is not the cause of our eternal salvation. Its God's grace and not hearing and seeing is no obstacle for the God I worship.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Forest...

Yes the passage is the 2 Peter 3:9 one,one.

But there is really no need for you to adress it, because you will merely regurgatate the faulty "stock" calvinistic response, that is of course in error.

 

[Forest]

Forest...

I said...



And you said...




Than I dont think you really know God.

I am not saying you are not saved. You probably are.

But I dont think you (((KNOW))) God. Meaning knowing Him intimetly. You probably know Him as a heavenly computer, or the "Supreme Commander". or something like that. But I dont think you have learned to know him as Father.
I promise you. it will be a very good day when you get to that point.

God bless.

And what makes you come to that conclusion?

 

[Mark_13]

He was probably playing the banjo while saying all that.