Who are the elect?

[percho]

Is the real question, Who are the elect or should the question be Why the elect?

Are the elect, elected for the sole purpose of giving them salvation or are they elected for the purpose of serving as kings and priests with Christ in the kingdom of God?

What is the absolute purpose for the elect?

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Are these the elect?

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

Does after this mean, after God is through taking out of the nations a people for his name, he will then return and set up the tabernacle of David? Does the tabernacle of David have anything to do with the throne of David?

Then what takes place?

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Notice the residue of man is seeking not only the Lord but the Lord and the elect upon his name is called.

Joel 2:32 says the same thing but there the elect is the residue whom God has called (elected)

 

[Van]

Reply to Forest

Your statement "The natural man can lose what spiritual ability he has. The truth is that the natural man never had any spiritual ability to lose.

In Romans 11, unbelieving Jews hearts were hardened. They were unregenerate natural men, men of flesh. When their hearts were hardened, they lost their natural ability to respond to the milk of the gospel.

 

[Van]

Reply to Forest;

Eph 1:13, They trusted in Christ after they heard the truth in the gospel, which tells them how they were eternlly saved by Christ on the cross. The gospel does not save them eternally, niether does their believing, but only tells them how they were saved. Eph 2:5, Even when we were dead (spiritually dead) hath quickened us together with Christ. Puting us together with Christ is regeneration. Eph 2:8, For by grace ye are saved through (whose faith?) Christ's faith and not our faith, Gal 2:16. If you are saying that "corporately" means "all mankind" you are going to have to explain a lot of scriptures to me. John 6:37-41 tells us that Christ died only for those that his Father gave him, and he will not lose one of them. I am glade that you have confidence that you are a learned scholar of the bible, that makes the descussion much more interesting.

Now you are posting absurdity, many of them had never heard of Christ, let alone believed in Him when Christ died on the cross. These are Ephesian Gentiles.

You seem to understand that no one is regenerated, quickened before they are spiritually put in Christ.

Whose faith? Good question. The faith in view in Ephesians 2:8 is our faith in Christ, because our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand, Romans 5:2. But in several verses, what is in view is Christ's faithfulness, even to the point of death of the cross, saved us, i.e. Galatians 2:16.

I would be honored to try to explain any verse you believe contradicts my view. For example John 6:37-41 does not, in my opinion say what you claim it says. But it certainly says everyone given to Christ is saved. However it does not say everyone drawn by God is saved.

 

[MB]

You agree that Dan 4:35 says that God accomplishes all his will.

I did not agree because Dan 4:35 does not say that at all.

Then you say that God is not willing that any man perish.

true I did say this and backed it up with scripture. 2 Peter 3:9

Sense we know that all mankind will not be housed in heaven, God does not accomplish all his will. Is that your thinking?

Must be because the Bible does not say God will accomplish all His will.

All scripture must harmonise or you are not understanding the truth. In actuality, 2 Pet 3:9 has been missinterpreted by you.

Lets be honest here what you said that Dan 4:35 states it does not say that at all. In fact no where in scripture is it ever said that God accomplishes all His will. That is a complete fabrication on your part.

Look at 2 Pet 1 to see who Peter is talking to and it is "them that have obtained like precious faith". So Peter in 2 Pet 3:9 is talking to people who are already born again children of God. Peter is warning them that when they sin that they should repent of the sin so that they would not perish(lose their fellowship with God) not their eternal life.

I'm sorry that is not what 2 Peter 3:9 says at all and not even Peter could determined that everyone he spoke to was already saved so how do you know this? You don't! you can't look back in to the past and see there hearts can you? Excuse me but if they perrish because of the penality of sin they will be lost and in hell. Because there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

God does not want any of his elect to lose their fellowship with him. Peter is even including himself in the warning by using the word "us-ward".

Nonsense if you're lost, you're lost. It says God is not willing that any perrish. Not that they will loose fellowship. To perrish in this sense means hell and spiritual death. He wasn't talking just about the saved but all people because a saved person will never perrish. You can try and reinterpret the word perrish all you want to but it still means death.

Eph 2:2-3 tells us how depravid man is before he has been quickened to life.

Not true at all it tells us men are sinners. and in no way does it ever mention an inability to respond. In fact this inability claimed by Calvinism is not true at all.

How do you explain away "election" in reference to Romans 9:11? Isa 65:9, Isa 65:22, Matt 24:24, Matt 24:31, Luke 18:7, Rom 8:33, Col 3:1.

I don't explain election away. It's just that there is not one Gentile you can prove with scripture that was ever elect in the first place. Not even your self. The elect are all Jews and Jacob was the first elect. You cannot show even one Gentile that was elect before the foundation of the world.

MB

 

[DaChaser1]

I did not agree because Dan 4:35 does not say that at all.

true I did say this and backed it up with scripture. 2 Peter 3:9

Must be because the Bible does not say God will accomplish all His will.

Lets be honest here what you said that Dan 4:35 states it does not say that at all. In fact no where in scripture is it ever said that God accomplishes all His will. That is a complete fabrication on your part.

I'm sorry that is not what 2 Peter 3:9 says at all and not even Peter could determined that everyone he spoke to was already saved so how do you know this? You don't! you can't look back in to the past and see there hearts can you? Excuse me but if they perrish because of the penality of sin they will be lost and in hell. Because there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.


Nonsense if you're lost, you're lost. It says God is not willing that any perrish. Not that they will loose fellowship. To perrish in this sense means hell and spiritual death. He wasn't talking just about the saved but all people because a saved person will never perrish. You can try and reinterpret the word perrish all you want to but it still means death.

Not true at all it tells us men are sinners. and in no way does it ever mention an inability to respond. In fact this inability claimed by Calvinism is not true at all.

I don't explain election away. It's just that there is not one Gentile you can prove with scripture that was ever elect in the first place. Not even your self. The elect are all Jews and Jacob was the first elect. You cannot show even one Gentile that was elect before the foundation of the world.

MB

Bottom line here...

have to define "All", and how that refers to Will of God....

jesus died so that ALl could have been saved, his death sufficient in worth to save all, but ONLY those whom God effectually grcaed to get saved by that act will get saved!

Those would be the Elect, based not upon the will of man, but by the Will of God!

 

[MB]

Bottom line here...

have to define "All", and how that refers to Will of God....

jesus died so that ALl could have been saved, his death sufficient in worth to save all, but ONLY those whom God effectually grcaed to get saved by that act will get saved!

Those would be the Elect, based not upon the will of man, but by the Will of God!

The use of the word "ALL" is to include everyone. I know men have tried to redefine this word because it simply doesn't fit there doctrines. So they keep searching for another definition, grasping at almost anything so they don't have to face the truth of it. The Bible's language isn't nearly as complicated as some try to make it. My grandson at the age of 5 understood it perfectly. It was written for people who weren't nearly as educated as they are today.
If only the true elect were saved, only Jews would be saved. There is not one Gentile ever shown to be elect in the Bible. Gentiles are grafted in not elected from before the foundation of the world. Christ died so that the world might be saved. Not that the world would be saved but, that they might be and that meant there are conditions and they are belief confession of sin and surrender to the righteousness of God.
MB

 

[Alive in Christ]

MB...

Good post.

Unfortunetly, it will probably fall on deaf ears regarding these ones who have been duped by calvinisms errors.

 

[DaChaser1]

The use of the word "ALL" is to include everyone. I know men have tried to redefine this word because it simply doesn't fit there doctrines. So they keep searching for another definition, grasping at almost anything so they don't have to face the truth of it. The Bible's language isn't nearly as complicated as some try to make it. My grandson at the age of 5 understood it perfectly. It was written for people who weren't nearly as educated as they are today.
If only the true elect were saved, only Jews would be saved. There is not one Gentile ever shown to be elect in the Bible. Gentiles are grafted in not elected from before the foundation of the world. Christ died so that the world might be saved. Not that the world would be saved but, that they might be and that meant there are conditions and they are belief confession of sin and surrender to the righteousness of God.
MB

the saved are elected by God regardless if jew/gentile, as per Apostle paul, God is no respector of persons, and He chooses to have mercy upon all!

So God is the very source of our election.....

 

[Forest]

Is the real question, Who are the elect or should the question be Why the elect?

Are the elect, elected for the sole purpose of giving them salvation or are they elected for the purpose of serving as kings and priests with Christ in the kingdom of God?

What is the absolute purpose for the elect?

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Are these the elect?

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

Does after this mean, after God is through taking out of the nations a people for his name, he will then return and set up the tabernacle of David? Does the tabernacle of David have anything to do with the throne of David?

Then what takes place?

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Notice the residue of man is seeking not only the Lord but the Lord and the elect upon his name is called.

Joel 2:32 says the same thing but there the elect is the residue whom God has called (elected)

God's purpose in electing people is so that he would have a people to honour and whorship him. The first and greatest commandmant is to love God with all your heart and soul and mind. There are many (elect) called, but few (elect) chosen. The few that are chosen are those who are the visiable church. The church that he set up is his kingdom in which he has been reigning as husband and king of from the time that he set it up. Mark 9:1, Verily I say unto you, that there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. Matt 16:28, Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

 

[Forest]

In Romans 11, unbelieving Jews hearts were hardened. They were unregenerate natural men, men of flesh. When their hearts were hardened, they lost their natural ability to respond to the milk of the gospel.

Israel is a shadow and type of the elect of God. God even changed Jacob's name to Israel, Gen 32:28. In a lot of the scriptures Israel does not mean the nation, but Jacob and his descendents (the elect). The nation of Israel was God's first chosen nation of people who had the oracles of God, but because of their unblief God hardened their hearts (he did not reject them as his elect, but took the church from them and gave it to the gentiles). Some of the Jews still do not have eyes to see and ears to hear unto this day. God hardened the hearts of some of his elect, so they were not unregenerate and natural man.

 

[Forest]

Now you are posting absurdity, many of them had never heard of Christ, let alone believed in Him when Christ died on the cross. These are Ephesian Gentiles.

You seem to understand that no one is regenerated, quickened before they are spiritually put in Christ.

Whose faith? Good question. The faith in view in Ephesians 2:8 is our faith in Christ, because our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand, Romans 5:2. But in several verses, what is in view is Christ's faithfulness, even to the point of death of the cross, saved us, i.e. Galatians 2:16.

I would be honored to try to explain any verse you believe contradicts my view. For example John 6:37-41 does not, in my opinion say what you claim it says. But it certainly says everyone given to Christ is saved. However it does not say everyone drawn by God is saved.

Gal 2:16 says we are justified by Christ's faith, not our faith. The faith in Eph 2:8 Christ's faith, unless you want to change the word "OF" to "IN" in Gal 2:16 as some translations have, which does not make it the truth. Rom 5:2 does not say that we have grace by our faith but our faith gives us access to see and understand that we are justified through Christ's faith, which harmonises with Gal 2:16. Rom 5:1, Justified by faith of Christ not our faith. Otherwise Rom 5:1 would not harmonise with Gal 2:16. God only calls his elect (those he gave to Christ) because all that he calls, he predestines, justifies and glorifies, Rom 8:30.

 

[Forest]

I did not agree because Dan 4:35 does not say that at all.

true I did say this and backed it up with scripture. 2 Peter 3:9

Must be because the Bible does not say God will accomplish all His will.

Lets be honest here what you said that Dan 4:35 states it does not say that at all. In fact no where in scripture is it ever said that God accomplishes all His will. That is a complete fabrication on your part.

I'm sorry that is not what 2 Peter 3:9 says at all and not even Peter could determined that everyone he spoke to was already saved so how do you know this? You don't! you can't look back in to the past and see there hearts can you? Excuse me but if they perrish because of the penality of sin they will be lost and in hell. Because there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.


Nonsense if you're lost, you're lost. It says God is not willing that any perrish. Not that they will loose fellowship. To perrish in this sense means hell and spiritual death. He wasn't talking just about the saved but all people because a saved person will never perrish. You can try and reinterpret the word perrish all you want to but it still means death.

Not true at all it tells us men are sinners. and in no way does it ever mention an inability to respond. In fact this inability claimed by Calvinism is not true at all.

I don't explain election away. It's just that there is not one Gentile you can prove with scripture that was ever elect in the first place. Not even your self. The elect are all Jews and Jacob was the first elect. You cannot show even one Gentile that was elect before the foundation of the world.

MB

I know that Jesus said he thanked his Father because he hid these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them unto babes. Thats the only explination I can come up with that you cannot see that Dan 4:35 says"AND HE DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL IN THE ARMY OF HEAVEN, AND AMONG THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH". Maybe you are studying from a different version of the bible, Does your version say the same as the KJV?

 

[Forest]

I did not agree because Dan 4:35 does not say that at all.

true I did say this and backed it up with scripture. 2 Peter 3:9

Must be because the Bible does not say God will accomplish all His will.

Lets be honest here what you said that Dan 4:35 states it does not say that at all. In fact no where in scripture is it ever said that God accomplishes all His will. That is a complete fabrication on your part.

I'm sorry that is not what 2 Peter 3:9 says at all and not even Peter could determined that everyone he spoke to was already saved so how do you know this? You don't! you can't look back in to the past and see there hearts can you? Excuse me but if they perrish because of the penality of sin they will be lost and in hell. Because there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.


Nonsense if you're lost, you're lost. It says God is not willing that any perrish. Not that they will loose fellowship. To perrish in this sense means hell and spiritual death. He wasn't talking just about the saved but all people because a saved person will never perrish. You can try and reinterpret the word perrish all you want to but it still means death.

Not true at all it tells us men are sinners. and in no way does it ever mention an inability to respond. In fact this inability claimed by Calvinism is not true at all.

I don't explain election away. It's just that there is not one Gentile you can prove with scripture that was ever elect in the first place. Not even your self. The elect are all Jews and Jacob was the first elect. You cannot show even one Gentile that was elect before the foundation of the world.

MB

If you hold to the thinking that Perish in 2 Pet 3:9 means hell, then 2 Pet 3:9 will not harmonise with Dan 4:35, and I am sure that you probably know that all scriptures must harmonise before you can understand the truth.

 

[Forest]

I did not agree because Dan 4:35 does not say that at all.

true I did say this and backed it up with scripture. 2 Peter 3:9

Must be because the Bible does not say God will accomplish all His will.

Lets be honest here what you said that Dan 4:35 states it does not say that at all. In fact no where in scripture is it ever said that God accomplishes all His will. That is a complete fabrication on your part.

I'm sorry that is not what 2 Peter 3:9 says at all and not even Peter could determined that everyone he spoke to was already saved so how do you know this? You don't! you can't look back in to the past and see there hearts can you? Excuse me but if they perrish because of the penality of sin they will be lost and in hell. Because there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.


Nonsense if you're lost, you're lost. It says God is not willing that any perrish. Not that they will loose fellowship. To perrish in this sense means hell and spiritual death. He wasn't talking just about the saved but all people because a saved person will never perrish. You can try and reinterpret the word perrish all you want to but it still means death.

Not true at all it tells us men are sinners. and in no way does it ever mention an inability to respond. In fact this inability claimed by Calvinism is not true at all.

I don't explain election away. It's just that there is not one Gentile you can prove with scripture that was ever elect in the first place. Not even your self. The elect are all Jews and Jacob was the first elect. You cannot show even one Gentile that was elect before the foundation of the world.

MB

If you hold to the thinking that Perish in 2 Pet 3:9 means hell, then 2 Pet 3:9 will not harmonise with Dan 4:35, and I am sure that you probably know that all scriptures must harmonise before you can understand the truth. Rom 8:1, Thats right that there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus as far as eternal security is concerned. However the elect of god, those that are in Christ Jesus, do, at times, step out of the protective hedge that God has about them, by their own lust, James 1:14, and when they do this they are not in fellowship with God until they repent of their sin. If God's elect never sin then their would be no need for God to chasten them, you do believe that God does chasten those that he loves, do you not? While I am on that point, there are those that God does not chasten (those that he dos not love), Ps 73:5 and Job 21:9.

 

[Forest]

I did not agree because Dan 4:35 does not say that at all.

true I did say this and backed it up with scripture. 2 Peter 3:9

Must be because the Bible does not say God will accomplish all His will.

Lets be honest here what you said that Dan 4:35 states it does not say that at all. In fact no where in scripture is it ever said that God accomplishes all His will. That is a complete fabrication on your part.

I'm sorry that is not what 2 Peter 3:9 says at all and not even Peter could determined that everyone he spoke to was already saved so how do you know this? You don't! you can't look back in to the past and see there hearts can you? Excuse me but if they perrish because of the penality of sin they will be lost and in hell. Because there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.


Nonsense if you're lost, you're lost. It says God is not willing that any perrish. Not that they will loose fellowship. To perrish in this sense means hell and spiritual death. He wasn't talking just about the saved but all people because a saved person will never perrish. You can try and reinterpret the word perrish all you want to but it still means death.

Not true at all it tells us men are sinners. and in no way does it ever mention an inability to respond. In fact this inability claimed by Calvinism is not true at all.

I don't explain election away. It's just that there is not one Gentile you can prove with scripture that was ever elect in the first place. Not even your self. The elect are all Jews and Jacob was the first elect. You cannot show even one Gentile that was elect before the foundation of the world.

MB

If you think that the natural man can respond to spiritual things, then how do you explain 1 Cor 2:14

 

[Forest]

Bottom line here...

have to define "All", and how that refers to Will of God....

jesus died so that ALl could have been saved, his death sufficient in worth to save all, but ONLY those whom God effectually grcaed to get saved by that act will get saved!

Those would be the Elect, based not upon the will of man, but by the Will of God!

There are too many scriptures that will not harmonise with the thinking that God wants all mankind to be saved. Dan 4:35, Isa 50:2.

 

[Forest]

The use of the word "ALL" is to include everyone. I know men have tried to redefine this word because it simply doesn't fit there doctrines. So they keep searching for another definition, grasping at almost anything so they don't have to face the truth of it. The Bible's language isn't nearly as complicated as some try to make it. My grandson at the age of 5 understood it perfectly. It was written for people who weren't nearly as educated as they are today.
If only the true elect were saved, only Jews would be saved. There is not one Gentile ever shown to be elect in the Bible. Gentiles are grafted in not elected from before the foundation of the world. Christ died so that the world might be saved. Not that the world would be saved but, that they might be and that meant there are conditions and they are belief confession of sin and surrender to the righteousness of God.
MB

So in Matt 24:31, when Christ comes back to gather his elect from the four winds of the earth, I guess that you think that he is going to leave the gentiles here. Col 3:11-12, Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumciison, Barbarian, Scythian, bod nor free; but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, "AS THE ELECT OF GOD",( not Jews only) holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering. Rom 11:7, What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for, but the election (gentiles) hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

 

[Forest]

The use of the word "ALL" is to include everyone. I know men have tried to redefine this word because it simply doesn't fit there doctrines. So they keep searching for another definition, grasping at almost anything so they don't have to face the truth of it. The Bible's language isn't nearly as complicated as some try to make it. My grandson at the age of 5 understood it perfectly. It was written for people who weren't nearly as educated as they are today.
If only the true elect were saved, only Jews would be saved. There is not one Gentile ever shown to be elect in the Bible. Gentiles are grafted in not elected from before the foundation of the world. Christ died so that the world might be saved. Not that the world would be saved but, that they might be and that meant there are conditions and they are belief confession of sin and surrender to the righteousness of God.
MB

Have you ever read Dan 4:35 to your grandson?

 

[MB]

I know that Jesus said he thanked his Father because he hid these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them unto babes. Thats the only explination I can come up with that you cannot see that Dan 4:35 says"AND HE DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL IN THE ARMY OF HEAVEN, AND AMONG THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH". Maybe you are studying from a different version of the bible, Does your version say the same as the KJV?

Yet it does not say that "He accomplishes all His will" I believe this is what you claimed it said. If God accomplishes all His will then all would be saved. Your not switching to universalism are you?. Because you see 2nd peter 3:9 still says He "is not willing that any perish". It does not say they "lost there fellowship" with God in stead.
Since you say they were all Christians, as you claim. How would they perish? Are you saying they could loose there Salvation.
This is what your interpretation leads to, absolute confusion. Then you told me that I interpreted these wrong. I think maybe you should double check your own interpretation
MB

 

[Van]

Israel is a shadow and type of the elect of God. God even changed Jacob's name to Israel, Gen 32:28. In a lot of the scriptures Israel does not mean the nation, but Jacob and his descendents (the elect). The nation of Israel was God's first chosen nation of people who had the oracles of God, but because of their unblief God hardened their hearts (he did not reject them as his elect, but took the church from them and gave it to the gentiles). Some of the Jews still do not have eyes to see and ears to hear unto this day. God hardened the hearts of some of his elect, so they were not unregenerate and natural man.

Hi Forest, did you actually read Romans 11? Paul says that at the present time, verse 5, there is a remnant chosen by grace. These are the elect. The other Jews are not elect, not regenerated, they are natural men, men of flesh. Verse 7, the others, the non-elect, were "hardened." Therefore they had some limited spiritual ability and lost it!