Calvinist Swipe at John Piper

[glfredrick]

I have a book of Sermons on all five points of Calvinism identified, defined and preached by C.H. Spurgeon. Yet, Spurgeon combined human responsibility and God's sovereignty in such a harmonous fashion in all his preaching that both sides claim him. He struck the perfect balance. That perfect balance is best expressed in these words "He invited all that would come to Christ to come."

That's because Calvinism does the same. It is only the strawman so often presented that Calvinism is an utterly deterministic doctrine that does not.

 

[glfredrick]

That is your false opinion that I have not done my own reading and only repeat what others say. I see that you put great worth in your own opinion, as false as it is, and even the opinion of men you put above the word of God. Just as the doctrines called Calvinism, they are merely man’s opinions.

How is what you just expressed any different? You make an argument here based on YOUR OWN AUTHORITY. We are supposed to believe that you are a reasoned scholar and yet you do not debate as a reasoned scholar, but rather as one who is, in a fundamentalstic way, already convinced of your own truth as you see it.

I do not like any teachings that go against the Truth. In addition, you are the one without support for your blanket statement. I know about Calvinism, and you do not know enough about me to say any of what you have been saying.

Sure you do, as long as they do not go against "your truth." And, we are learning more about you with every post.

As a point of debate, many of us here on the board are well-read men. I've read somewhere around 10,000 + books and compared the writings of such to the Scriptures. While I find all sorts of arguments made in all those books, the one thing I don't often find is dogmatic statements such as the ones you are making here on the board. I do find that scholars will lay out someone else's opinion or doctrine FAIRLY as they have expressed it themselves, then on a point-by-point basis examine that doctrine or opinion and compare it with their own. Rare indeed are the true scholars who just blast someone else out of the water wholesale -- especially when that "someone" has been as effective in the church as a man like Calvin, Spurgeon, Piper, etc.

Stop trying to teach me to live in error and to go against the Word of God. The Word of God says we will know them by their fruits. John Calvin had people killed, and by his fruit I know him.

You have obviously not completely (or at all) read Calvin himself, but by tone of your argument and your vociferous hatred for all things Calvin, demonstrate that you have in fact only read one side of Calvin's history and that not even the truthful side. I can only offer that you go back and do some remedial work to learn the whole history and truth of the matter, but alas, I also (likely am right) fear that you will not, for you already have your mind made up by whomever is preaching this message of hatred into you.

If there is anyone calling themselves a Christian, and yet they are killing homosexuals, like John Calvin killed, then those Christians should be judged.

They will... I also recall that Jesus said, (Mat 5:22) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

You claim to be a follower of Scripture alone, and yet you say to your brothers, "Raca!"

I believe that you think you have cause, and yet you have yet to realize all the good that Calvin did as a part of his life, dedicated to serving the Lord and preaching the gospel to the Lord's people. Raising one's voice against a servant of the Lord is always a risky proposition, for YOU become the judge instead of allowing God to judge.

 

[steaver]

I'll just throw in a book plug for John Piper. Read his book Spectacular Sins. Great read! :thumbsup:

 

[DaChaser1]

How is what you just expressed any different? You make an argument here based on YOUR OWN AUTHORITY. We are supposed to believe that you are a reasoned scholar and yet you do not debate as a reasoned scholar, but rather as one who is, in a fundamentalstic way, already convinced of your own truth as you see it.



Sure you do, as long as they do not go against "your truth." And, we are learning more about you with every post.

As a point of debate, many of us here on the board are well-read men. I've read somewhere around 10,000 + books and compared the writings of such to the Scriptures. While I find all sorts of arguments made in all those books, the one thing I don't often find is dogmatic statements such as the ones you are making here on the board. I do find that scholars will lay out someone else's opinion or doctrine FAIRLY as they have expressed it themselves, then on a point-by-point basis examine that doctrine or opinion and compare it with their own. Rare indeed are the true scholars who just blast someone else out of the water wholesale -- especially when that "someone" has been as effective in the church as a man like Calvin, Spurgeon, Piper, etc.




You have obviously not completely (or at all) read Calvin himself, but by tone of your argument and your vociferous hatred for all things Calvin, demonstrate that you have in fact only read one side of Calvin's history and that not even the truthful side. I can only offer that you go back and do some remedial work to learn the whole history and truth of the matter, but alas, I also (likely am right) fear that you will not, for you already have your mind made up by whomever is preaching this message of hatred into you.




They will... I also recall that Jesus said, (Mat 5:22) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

You claim to be a follower of Scripture alone, and yet you say to your brothers, "Raca!"

I believe that you think you have cause, and yet you have yet to realize all the good that Calvin did as a part of his life, dedicated to serving the Lord and preaching the gospel to the Lord's people. Raising one's voice against a servant of the Lord is always a risky proposition, for YOU become the judge instead of allowing God to judge.

Looking back over all of the various posters and their postings here on the BB as regards to Calvinism and sotierology...

Come to the realization that it just might be that they are rejcting not the falseood of cal teachings, but their truths!

As they don't like the concept of us not being able to come to Chrsit by themselves, aas they are not the ultimate deterniner of their salvation, and that they also rebel at the concept of "Gods fairness"!

they are against the truths based upon own preconceived notions as reagrds Gods Sovereignty and our own free will!

 

[glfredrick]

Looking back over all of the various posters and their postings here on the BB as regards to Calvinism and sotierology...

Come to the realization that it just might be that they are rejcting not the falseood of cal teachings, but their truths!

As they don't like the concept of us not being able to come to Chrsit by themselves, aas they are not the ultimate deterniner of their salvation, and that they also rebel at the concept of "Gods fairness"!

they are against the truths based upon own preconceived notions as reagrds Gods Sovereignty and our own free will!

That's the way I see it. They are rebellious and desire human autonomy from God (see Genesis 3). Yet, they also desire God's salvation, which can only come from God. So, in order to continue in their rebellion yet have God's salvation, there is the invention of an entire doctrine that syncretistically blends human effort and God's grace into something other than God being the sole author and finisher of our faith and salvation.

 

[Moriah]

How is what you just expressed any different? You make an argument here based on YOUR OWN AUTHORITY.

What you say about me are lies. How do you feel about yourself speaking lies? I only speak of what is in the Bible.

We are supposed to believe that you are a reasoned scholar and yet you do not debate as a reasoned scholar, but rather as one who is, in a fundamentalstic way, already convinced of your own truth as you see it.

Where did I ever call myself a scholar? You cannot stop yourself from continuing to spread lies. As for me being convinced of the truth, of course I am. You try to make confidence in the Truth something bad, to your own disgrace.

Sure you do, as long as they do not go against "your truth." And, we are learning more about you with every post.

I only speak God’s truth. You however, you speak your own truth, which can be any lie, just like the lies you say about me. You look up old and new scholars and pronounce them as truth teachers, yet you do not even check with the Word of God. If you did check with the Word of God, then you would know that it is not my truth but God’s truth that I speak.

As a point of debate, many of us here on the board are well-read men.

You sure are a well-read man. Do you know what a slanderer is? Do you know what a hypocrite is? You have slandered me here, and you also judge me of doing the very things you yourself do.

I've read somewhere around 10,000 + books and compared the writings of such to the Scriptures. While I find all sorts of arguments made in all those books, the one thing I don't often find is dogmatic statements such as the ones you are making here on the board. I do find that scholars will lay out someone else's opinion or doctrine FAIRLY as they have expressed it themselves, then on a point-by-point basis examine that doctrine or opinion and compare it with their own. Rare indeed are the true scholars who just blast someone else out of the water wholesale -- especially when that "someone" has been as effective in the church as a man like Calvin, Spurgeon, Piper, etc.

Oh, like the way you are trying to blast me out of the water wholesale. Go back and read about what a hypocrite is. I see you love Calvin, Spurgeon, and Piper, but I love the Word of God.

You have obviously not completely (or at all) read Calvin himself, but by tone of your argument and your vociferous hatred for all things Calvin, demonstrate that you have in fact only read one side of Calvin's history and that not even the truthful side. I can only offer that you go back and do some remedial work to learn the whole history and truth of the matter, but alas, I also (likely am right) fear that you will not, for you already have your mind made up by whomever is preaching this message of hatred into you.

I could not care less what you think of me personally. Stop making posts to me with your personal rants of what you think of me. Show me what I say that is wrong scripturally, otherwise back off of the personal comments with no truth.

They will... I also recall that Jesus said, (Mat 5:22) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

You are the one who is hateful to me. I take my time to try to show the truth, yet you call me hateful for this. You prove you cannot make a righteous judgment. You want me to put little smileys next to my posts. Would this make you feel better?

You claim to be a follower of Scripture alone, and yet you say to your brothers, "Raca!"

You are a liar, a slanderer, and a hypocrite. You should repent soon for this lie.

I believe that you think you have cause, and yet you have yet to realize all the good that Calvin did as a part of his life, dedicated to serving the Lord and preaching the gospel to the Lord's people. Raising one's voice against a servant of the Lord is always a risky proposition, for YOU become the judge instead of allowing God to judge.

You defend a murderer, John Calvin, yet you falsely judge me. You do what your father John Calvin did.
We are supposed to correct each other, because of love. We are supposed to demand each other not to teach false doctrine. Yet, you lie and say I hate and tell my brother "Raca." 1 Timothy 1:3-4 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer…

You have shown much evil today in how you spoke to me.

 

[DaChaser1]

What you say about me are lies. How do you feel about yourself speaking lies? I only speak of what is in the Bible.


Where did I ever call myself a scholar? You cannot stop yourself from continuing to spread lies. As for me being convinced of the truth, of course I am. You try to make confidence in the Truth something bad, to your own disgrace.


I only speak God’s truth. You however, you speak your own truth, which can be any lie, just like the lies you say about me. You look up old and new scholars and pronounce them as truth teachers, yet you do not even check with the Word of God. If you did check with the Word of God, then you would know that it is not my truth but God’s truth that I speak.


You sure are a well-read man. Do you know what a slanderer is? Do you know what a hypocrite is? You have slandered me here, and you also judge me of doing the very things you yourself do.


Oh, like the way you are trying to blast me out of the water wholesale. Go back and read about what a hypocrite is. I see you love Calvin, Spurgeon, and Piper, but I love the Word of God.


I could not care less what you think of me personally. Stop making posts to me with your personal rants of what you think of me. Show me what I say that is wrong scripturally, otherwise back off of the personal comments with no truth.


You are the one who is hateful to me. I take my time to try to show the truth, yet you call me hateful for this. You prove you cannot make a righteous judgment. You want me to put little smileys next to my posts. Would this make you feel better?


You are a liar, a slanderer, and a hypocrite. You should repent soon for this lie.



You defend a murderer, John Calvin, yet you falsely judge me. You do what your father John Calvin did.
We are supposed to correct each other, because of love. We are supposed to demand each other not to teach false doctrine. Yet, you lie and say I hate and tell my brother "Raca." 1 Timothy 1:3-4 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer…

You have shown much evil today in how you spoke to me.

PLEASE answer this few questions!

what was the result of the fall upon man?

Are we able to come to God ourselves, through our natural free will?

does God supply Grace towards man in order to save them?

just HOW does the Lord save us?

Do we HAVE to receive it by faith, or is it somehow just given to us?

 

[Moriah]

PLEASE answer this few questions!

what was the result of the fall upon man?

Are we able to come to God ourselves, through our natural free will?

does God supply Grace towards man in order to save them?

just HOW does the Lord save us?

Do we HAVE to receive it by faith, or is it somehow just given to us?

I would love to answer questions for you.

The result of the fall of man was so that we would know good from evil, and that we must choose good or evil.

We are able to believe in God after learning of Him.

God gives grace to all who will believe and obey in His Son Jesus Christ.

The Lord saves us when we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth, when we call on the name of the Lord.

We receive the Holy Spirit after we believe and obey.

 

[The Biblicist]

I would love to answer questions for you.

The result of the fall of man was so that we would know good from evil, and that we must choose good or evil..

Adam and Eve both INTELLECTUALLY knew the difference between right and wrong before the fall because God explicitly told them what was right and what was wrong.

Gen. 2:16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen. 3:2 And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.

Hence, they did not have to fall in order to INTELLECTUAL discern between good and evil as they already KNEW the difference BEFORE the fall.

Gen. 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Gen. 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


After the fall they came to know right and wrong in a different sense. They came to know it by way of EXPERIENCE with their own conscience as their conscience exposed them to their sin and shame (Gen. 3:7). Knowing it experientially through conscience. The condemnation by their conscience confirmed that God was right and they were wrong.

They also came to know it in the sense that God knows right and wrong! God knows right and wrong not by experience because God has never experienced doing wrong. God knows right and wrong by legislative position as judge who declares what is right and what is wrong. By willfully choosing to disobey God's determination of right and wrong, Adam and Eve usurped God's right to determine right from wrong and assumed that position for themselves. They usurped God and claimed the right to determine for themselves what they would regard as right and wrong. In this sense they became as "one of us"!

 

[Moriah]

Adam and Eve both INTELLECTUALLY knew the difference between right and wrong before the fall because God explicitly told them what was right and what was wrong. Hence, they did not have to fall in order to INTELLECTUAL discern between good and evil as they already KNEW the difference BEFORE the fall.

Answer this, what was the tree that Adam and Eve were not to eat from? It was the tree of knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL. Genesis 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
There, I proved you wrong. Will you admit that you were corrected?

After the fall they came to know right and wrong in a different sense.

Oh, now they came to know right and wrong in a different sense. No. The word of God says they ate from the tree of KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL.

They came to know it by way of EXPERIENCE with their own conscience as their conscience exposed them to their sin and shame (Gen. 3:7). Knowing it experientially through conscience. The condemnation by their conscience confirmed that God was right and they were wrong.

Please just speak what the scriptures say, and not all this other opinion.

They also came to know it in the sense that God knows right and wrong! God knows right and wrong not by experience because God has never experienced doing wrong. God knows right and wrong by legislative position as judge who declares what is right and what is wrong. By willfully choosing to disobey God's determination of right and wrong, Adam and Eve usurped God's right to determine right from wrong and assumed that position for themselves. They usurped God and claimed the right to determine for themselves what they would regard as right and wrong. In this sense they became as "one of us"!

You have not proven what I said was wrong. No, not at all. I only speak of God’s word. I have only spoken the truth. You use a lot of your own logic. Please just use scripture. Adam and Eve did not usurp God and determined what is regarded as right and wrong, as you so say. That is not how they became "one of us"! The scriptures do not say what you say. The Word of God plainly says the man has now become like one of us, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

 

[Christos doulos]

The result of the fall of man was so that we would know good from evil, and that we must choose good or evil.

That is not a result. That is a reason. What was the result of the fall?

We are able to believe in God after learning of Him.

"able" doesn't answer anything. Anyone is able, even atheists are able

God gives grace to all who will believe and obey in His Son Jesus Christ.

and how does one come to believe or want to obey?

The Lord saves us when we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth, when we call on the name of the Lord.

God can't save us unless we let Him?

We receive the Holy Spirit after we believe and obey.

Why would someone want to believe and obey without the Holy Spirit in them?


My friend. You did not answer any of DaChaser's questions.

My friend you have a man centered gospel. Your mistake is that you confuse ability with will. Everyone has the ability to believe, serve and follow God but none have the will to believe, serve and follow God because none are willing not able.

 

[glfredrick]

What you say about me are lies. How do you feel about yourself speaking lies? I only speak of what is in the Bible.


Where did I ever call myself a scholar? You cannot stop yourself from continuing to spread lies. As for me being convinced of the truth, of course I am. You try to make confidence in the Truth something bad, to your own disgrace.


I only speak God’s truth. You however, you speak your own truth, which can be any lie, just like the lies you say about me. You look up old and new scholars and pronounce them as truth teachers, yet you do not even check with the Word of God. If you did check with the Word of God, then you would know that it is not my truth but God’s truth that I speak.


You sure are a well-read man. Do you know what a slanderer is? Do you know what a hypocrite is? You have slandered me here, and you also judge me of doing the very things you yourself do.


Oh, like the way you are trying to blast me out of the water wholesale. Go back and read about what a hypocrite is. I see you love Calvin, Spurgeon, and Piper, but I love the Word of God.


I could not care less what you think of me personally. Stop making posts to me with your personal rants of what you think of me. Show me what I say that is wrong scripturally, otherwise back off of the personal comments with no truth.


You are the one who is hateful to me. I take my time to try to show the truth, yet you call me hateful for this. You prove you cannot make a righteous judgment. You want me to put little smileys next to my posts. Would this make you feel better?


You are a liar, a slanderer, and a hypocrite. You should repent soon for this lie.



You defend a murderer, John Calvin, yet you falsely judge me. You do what your father John Calvin did.
We are supposed to correct each other, because of love. We are supposed to demand each other not to teach false doctrine. Yet, you lie and say I hate and tell my brother "Raca." 1 Timothy 1:3-4 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer…

You have shown much evil today in how you spoke to me.

Ok, you of NON-BIBLE support... :wavey:

 

[glfredrick]

I would love to answer questions for you.

The result of the fall of man was so that we would know good from evil, and that we must choose good or evil.

Isn't your answer what the serpent (Satan) promised Adam and Eve?



Gen 3:4-5 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

isn't your answer what the serpent (satan) promised adam and eve?



gen 3:4-5 and the serpent said unto the woman, ye shall not surely die: 5 for god doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

bingo!!! :laugh:

 

[DaChaser1]

I would love to answer questions for you.

The result of the fall of man was so that we would know good from evil, and that we must choose good or evil.

Adam already knew that God had spoken to him, and God cannot lie

We are able to believe in God after learning of Him.

NO! Need to have the Holy Spirit do His work to open our hearts/minds in order to be enabled to respond to jesus, we can learn of Him, but cannot come to Chrsit apart from the Lord causing that to occur!
satan and the Demons "learned" of Christ, that cannot save them!

God gives grace to all who will believe and obey in His Son Jesus Christ.

Gods enabling Grace MUST come before we can hear and believe, and obedience does not save us, but by Faith in the work and person of jesus, once enabled to do such by God!

The Lord saves us when we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth, when we call on the name of the Lord.


We receive the Holy Spirit after we believe and obey.

Actually, we receive the Holy Spirit by faith alone!

Seems that you are going the route of being saved by my efforts to assist the Lord!

 

[glfredrick]

Seems that you are going the route of being saved by my efforts to assist the Lord!

You big liar, you... :laugh:

 

[DaChaser1]

You big liar, you... :laugh:

What is strange is though on a "Non baptist" part of board, discussion is sounding a lot like traditional discussion between cal/arms on baptist Board!

 

[Iconoclast]

:laugh:

Calvinists are false, and so is Piper, so what does it matter what the two false teachers say about each other?

:laugh::laugh::laugh: dream on

 

[Moriah]

The result of the fall of man was so that we would know good from evil, and that we must choose good or evil.

That is not a result. That is a reason. What was the result of the fall?

Yes, it is a result. I gave you scripture. God knew Adam and Eve would sin. Now we all know good and evil.


We are able to believe in God after learning of Him.

"able" doesn't answer anything. Anyone is able, even atheists are able

What is the matter with that? You do not like it because it disproves Calvinism.

God gives grace to all who will believe and obey in His Son Jesus Christ.
and how does one come to believe or want to obey?

By hearing the message, and liking the message, and being taught, and being persuaded. See Romans 10:14; Colossians 1:5,7; 2 Timothy 3:14; and 2 Corinthians 5:11.


The Lord saves us when we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth, when we call on the name of the Lord.

God can't save us unless we let Him?

God does not save us unless we do as He says.


We receive the Holy Spirit after we believe and obey.

Why would someone want to believe and obey without the Holy Spirit in them?

You will not receive the Holy Spirit unless you do. God does not save those who hate Him, as Calvinists teach. Jesus says God saves those who love Him. See John 14:23.

My friend. You did not answer any of DaChaser's questions.

I answered all of them. Blind people cannot see. Even one-eyed people cannot always see and miss much.

My friend you have a man centered gospel. Your mistake is that you confuse ability with will. Everyone has the ability to believe, serve and follow God but none have the will to believe, serve and follow God because none are willing not able.

What you say here is mumbo jumbo from people like Paul Washer, etc.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

:laugh:

:laugh::laugh: dream on

Holy Cow..... what an angry little troll we got here:tongue3: