Define Idolatry

[The Biblicist]

That word is not translated useful. Thoroughly furnished applies to doing good works. Not everything that proceeds it. You are missapplying scripture.

Thoroughly furnished APPLIES to all good works but it is WHAT is listed in verse 16 that makes the man of God both "perfect" and "thoroughly furnished" in order to make that application!

Hence, you are perverting my words as well as the 2 Tim. 3:16-17.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Apostle john stated that not EVERYTHING jesus said and did was recorded done for us, but what GOD knew that we needed in order to be saved and following Him!

That's material sufficiency.

IF not found in the scriptures.evident that the Lord did not deem it fit for us to know it, and not part of the Christian faith...

IF God saw fit to keep thing hidden to us, and unknown, why would he sufddenly reverse his position and give it to the RCC afterwards?

It's not hidden from us - its in Tradition.

Do you realise just HOW close this is to Monmonism and the Apostles/prophets and other sacred books used?

maybe because ALL from same source, both RCC/Mormonism?

Mormonism is very young. Tradition comes to us from the Apostles starting before anything was written down.

WM

 

[The Biblicist]

It's not hidden from us - its in Tradition.



WM

Book, chapter and verse where God reveals that is the truth please?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Thoroughly furnished APPLIES to all good works but it is WHAT is listed in verse 16 that makes the man of God both "perfect" and "thoroughly furnished" in order to make that application!

Hence, you are perverting my words as well as the 2 Tim. 3:16-17.

Scriptures are useful.

Scriptures thoroughly furnish the man of God to do good works.

There is nothing about total suffiency in doctrine, etc... but in equiping a man to do good works. That is what the passage means. Period.

 

[The Biblicist]

Scriptures are useful.

Scriptures thoroughly furnish the man of God to do good works.

There is nothing about total suffiency in doctrine, etc... but in equiping a man to do good works. That is what the passage means. Period.

Again you are perverting what I said and what Paul said. It is WHAT the scriptures provide the man of God in verse 16 that make the man of God "perfect" and "thoroughly furnished." Without WHAT the scripture provide in verse 16 the man of God would not be "perfect" or "thoroughly furnished" and therefore NO GOOD WORKS could be defined or accomplished according to knowledge as there would be no basis to establish what is "good" works.

The fact that it is the "scripture" that provides WHAT is essential to make the man of God "perfect" (complete) and "thoroughly furnished" by NECESSARY inference denies the need of tradtion to provide ANY OF THESE THINGS that scripture provides for the man of God or else these provisions by Scripture would NOT make the man of God "perfect" (complete) or "throughly furnished" UNTO "all" good works because TRADITION would be necessary to provide what is MISSING!

The only reasoning you are twisting my words and Paul's words is because you are committed to your dogma not to your scriptures.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Again you are perverting what I said and what Paul said. It is WHAT the scriptures provide the man of God in verse 16 that make the man of God "perfect" and "thoroughly furnished." Without WHAT the scripture provide in verse 16 the man of God would not be "perfect" or "thoroughly furnished" and therefore NO GOOD WORKS could be defined or accomplished according to knowledge as there would be no basis to establish what is "good" works.

The fact that it is the "scripture" that provides WHAT is essential to make the man of God "perfect" (complete) and "thoroughly furnished" by NECESSARY inference denies the need of tradtion to provide ANY OF THESE THINGS that scripture provides for the man of God or else these provisions by Scripture would NOT make the man of God "perfect" (complete) or "throughly furnished" UNTO "all" good works because TRADITION would be necessary to provide what is MISSING!

The only reasoning you are twisting my words and Paul's words is because you are committed to your dogma not to your scriptures.

I haven't twisted anything. I've shown you the plain reading of that text. You're the one who's jumping through hoops to make the passage say what you want it to say and it doesn't. That passage does not teach scriptures alone.

 

[The Biblicist]

I haven't twisted anything. I've shown you the plain reading of that text. You're the one who's jumping through hoops to make the passage say what you want it to say and it doesn't. That passage does not teach scriptures alone.

You cannot disprove either the logic or the biblical basis of my last post and so you spue out empty but hot air! You are simply wrong and to proud (or blind) to admit it.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You cannot disprove either the logic or the biblical basis of my last post and so you spue out empty but hot air! You are simply wrong and to proud (or blind) to admit it.

I have already done so by showing you the plain reading of the Text. You're are the one jumping through hoops. The plain reading of the Text doesn't support your hypothesis. Which is throroughly furnished applies to all good works which means everything there is to know about doctrine teaching etc... is included. But that is not what the passage says.
It says scriptures are useful for teaching, rebuking, etc... and that the teaching of scripture is enough to equip a man to do good works. That is it. There is no implication in that passage that Scriptures are alone authoritative. In fact you purposely leave out vs. 14 which refers to traditions taught.

 

[The Biblicist]

I have already done so by showing....

1. You have shown you can twist and pervert what I said.

2. You have shown you can ignore what I said

3. You have shown you can pervert and twist what Paul said

But, you have not shown you can respond to that last post WITHOUT twisting or ignoring or rewording what I actually said.

It is WHAT the scriptures provide the man of God in verse 16 that make the man of God "perfect" and "thoroughly furnished." Without WHAT the scripture provide in verse 16 the man of God would not be "perfect" or "thoroughly furnished" and therefore NO GOOD WORKS could be defined or accomplished according to knowledge as there would be no basis to establish what is "good" works.

The fact that it is the "scripture" that provides WHAT is essential to make the man of God "perfect" (complete) and "thoroughly furnished" by NECESSARY inference denies the need of tradtion to provide ANY OF THESE THINGS that scripture provides for the man of God or else these provisions by Scripture would NOT make the man of God "perfect" (complete) or "throughly furnished" UNTO "all" good works because TRADITION would be necessary to provide what is MISSING!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

1. You have shown you can twist and pervert what I said.

2. You have shown you can ignore what I said

I haven't

3. You have shown you can pervert and twist what Paul said

I have not.

But, you have not shown you can respond to that last post WITHOUT twisting or ignoring or rewording what I actually said.

Really, what did you actually say? Thoroughy Furnished to do all good works means all doctrine and all teachings are presented in scripture. Is what it seems to be what you are saying. That is what you said and that passage doesn't say that. Just follow the plain teaching of the text.

It is WHAT the scriptures provide the man of God in verse 16 that make the man of God "perfect" and "thoroughly furnished." Without WHAT the scripture provide in verse 16 the man of God would not be "perfect" or "thoroughly furnished" and therefore NO GOOD WORKS could be defined or accomplished according to knowledge as there would be no basis to establish what is "good" works.

How is that different than my summery of what you said previously

Thoroughy Furnished to do all good works means all doctrine and all teachings are presented in scripture

You seem to be saying the same thing but from a negative context.

The fact that it is the "scripture" that provides WHAT is essential to make the man of God "perfect" (complete) and "thoroughly furnished" by NECESSARY inference denies the need of tradtion to provide ANY OF THESE THINGS that scripture provides for the man of God or else these provisions by Scripture would NOT make the man of God "perfect" (complete) or "throughly furnished" UNTO "all" good works because TRADITION would be necessary to provide what is MISSING![/COLOR][/I]

Again how is it different from my summation of what you said?

However, the plain text of the passage is clear that scripture gives man everything he needs to do good works. It doesn't say it makes available everything there is to know about doctrine, teaching, etc.... It is certainly useful for that an for equiping man to do good works. that is the simple teaching of that passage.

 

[DHK]

I have often told you that for the most part Tradition and scriptures overlap because they are the same thing.

Then the tradition of the RCC is useless. How can they overlap if they are the same thing?

However, The whole word of God isn't just in scriptures but in the teachings the Apostles passed down such as how to understand scripture. That doesn't make a good case for sola scriptura because Jesus gives us the means how to understand scripture not make our understanding of scripture into its reading. And this view of scripture has been handed by the apostles to their successors.

The only means that Jesus gave us is here:

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
--He used Scripture to help them understand Scripture. That is sola scriptura. That is what we use today. We don't use tradition. We don't need to go outside of the Bible for the most part. Jesus stayed within the Bible, explaining to them the Scriptures.

Scriptures show use of liturgical worship. Baptist don't have that. Paul often refers to apostolic traditions quoting hymns that teach things about Jesus that aren't found in scriptures. Jude relies on out side scriptural sources for his teaching and on and on it goes.

You can't prove that statement. You can't show liturgical worship from the Bible. What apostolic traditions would Paul refer to when he is one of the apostles. What traditions would he have when the apostles were contemporary with Paul. They all lived at the same relative time. There was no tradition--no time for tradition to take place. Look in a RCC encyclopedia as to the definition of tradition. They define it as oral or written knowledge passed down from one generation to another generation taking place over the centuries. There were no centuries that passed by; no time for tradition to develop. They were all contemporary with each other. It was Scripture that was taught and nothing else. To try and read into the Scripture liturgical worship is vain eisigesis.

 

[The Biblicist]

Really, what did you actually say? Thoroughy Furnished to do all good works means all doctrine and all teachings are presented in scripture. Is what it seems to be what you are saying.

I have not said that, I am not saying that. Why can't you understand and read what I said. I never said "thoroughly furnished to do all good works MEANS ALL DOCTRINE AND TEACHING ARE PRESENTED IN SCRIPTURE." The upper case is you immagination of what you would have liked me to have said!

What thoroughly furnished in regard to all good works MEANS is that Paul has chosen and limited this discussion to WHAT scripture provided in verse 16 as the BASIS for the man of God TO BE "perfect" and "throughly furnished" in regard to all good works!

Now, take note of my denial. Take note of the upper case words used in my explanation and then compare that to your idea of what I said.

The truth is, your presentation of what I said is what YOU WANT ME TO MEAN so you can easily dismantle it. However, I never said that, don't mean it and I doubt you WANT to understand what I mean because it would force you to face the truth in the text!

Let me try saying it differently. The Company supplies the tools that thoroughly equip a carpenter to be complete and to do ALL his work is like what the scriptures provide the man of God to be complete and thoroughy furnish him to accomplish all good works!

The scripture is the source, the ONLY source Paul designates for the tools he lists - they come from "all scriptures are inspired by God".

The tools he lists "doctrine, instruction, corrrection and reproof" are what makes the carpenter (man of God) complete and sufficient to do all his work.

Now, by necessary inference, the tools were not attributed to TRADITION but to the "scriptures" ALONE - nothing else. The text does not say "All scriptures and tradition" supplies these things! He considers nothing else but "all scripture" in this text.

Now, by necessary inference, the man of God is made "perfect" or complete by WHAT things the scriptures ALONE and NOTHING ELSE is said to provide. He does not say TRADITION supplied doctrine, instruction, correction and reproof but "All scripture" does this and NOTHING ELSE but scripture ALONE is being attributed this in this text.

Now, by necessary inference, the man of God is SUFFICIENTLY FURNISHED to do all good works by WHAT the scriptures provide ALONE and Nothing else because nothing else but the scriptures are the basis for these things.

Now, by necessary inference, the man of God could not be said to be "perfect" (complete) or throughly furnished unto ALL good works" IF that depended upon something other than scriptures because NOTHING ELSE that "all scripture" is the source of this conclusion!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I have not said that, I am not saying that. Why can't you understand and read what I said. I never said "thoroughly furnished to do all good works MEANS ALL DOCTRINE AND TEACHING ARE PRESENTED IN SCRIPTURE." The upper case is you immagination of what you would have liked me to have said!

Ok. Then what are you saying?

What thoroughly furnished in regard to all good works MEANS is that Paul has chosen and limited this discussion to WHAT scripture provided in verse 16 as the BASIS for the man of God TO BE "perfect" and "throughly furnished" in regard to all good works!

If I understand you. You are saying that scriptures are the basis of doing good works.

The truth is, your presentation of what I said is what YOU WANT ME TO MEAN so you can easily dismantle it.

If you are saying that scriptures equip a man to do good works then we are in agreement and I have no need to dismantle anything.

However, I never said that, don't mean it and I doubt you WANT to understand what I mean because it would force you to face the truth in the text!

Actually, I like agreements. I'm not forcing anything on you just going with what you said.

Let me try saying it differently

Ok I'm all ears.

The Company supplies the tools that thoroughly equip a carpenter to be complete and to do ALL his work is like what the scriptures provide the man of God to be complete and thoroughy furnish him to accomplish all good works!

ok.

The scripture is the source, the ONLY source Paul designates for the tools he lists - they come from "all scriptures are inspired by God".

What Paul actually says is scriptures are useful for certain things and those things equip a man to do good works. And why does Paul previous to this verse ask Timothy to continue in what he had been taught orally "and" how from infancy he had been taught scriptures "Which" is able to make you wize for salvation and is useful etc....? There is no only about it. You want to look at 16 in seclusion. But that isn't how Paul meant it.

The tools he lists "doctrine, instruction, corrrection and reproof" are what makes the carpenter (man of God) complete and sufficient to do all his work.

Yes. But again now where does it say that doctrine is supplied all doctrine or instruction is all instruction or reproof is all reproof. Therefore what sciptures does supply is enough to do good works

Now, by necessary inference, the man of God is made "perfect" or complete by WHAT things the scriptures ALONE and NOTHING ELSE is said to provide. He does not say TRADITION supplied doctrine, instruction, correction and reproof but "All scripture" does this and NOTHING ELSE but scripture ALONE is being attributed this in this text.

You ignore vs. 14 and its connection with 15-16.

 

[The Biblicist]

What Paul actually says is scriptures are useful for certain things and those things equip a man to do good works.

Not merely "equip" but THOROUGHLY equip. If this necessarily included Oral Tradition he could not be said to be "THOROUGHLY equipped" by what is provided by "all scripture."

And why does Paul previous to this verse ask Timothy to continue in what he had been taught orally "

Paul is not trying to defend or teach the perpetuity of The ORAL traditions of his grandmother and mother any more than the perpetuity of his own oral teaching of Timothy. The Scripture is the basis for grandmother, mother and Paul in his training, as the scripture provides the necessary doctrine, instruction, correction and reproof and it is the scripture not oral tradition that made him wise to salvation. The consistent focus is on the scripture not some perpetuated oral tradition.

Yes. But again now where does it say that doctrine is supplied all doctrine or instruction is all instruction or reproof is all reproof. Therefore what sciptures does supply is enough to do good works

If that were true then "all scripture" could not be said to make the man of God either "perfect" (complete) or "thoroughly furnished" because he is NOT without ORAL TRADITION!

Your interpretation actually denies the very point Paul is making. The man of God is made "perfect" (complete) by the use of "all scripture" but your theory denies that - he is not made "perfect" (complete" by the use of "scripture" but by the use of Scripture joined with Tradition.

Your interpretation actually denies the very point Paul is making. The man of God is "throughly furnished unto all good works" by the use of "scripture" but your theory denies that - he is not made "thoroughly furnished unto all good works" by scripture but by scripture PLUS Tradition.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Not merely "equip" but THOROUGHLY equip. If this necessarily included Oral Tradition he could not be said to be "THOROUGHLY equipped" by what is provided by "all scripture."

vs. 14 is included in the discourse therefore. Continue in what you have been taught and remember the scriptures as well because it is the inspired word of God. IE. Two things told to timothy. Also note Thoroughly Equiped to do good works provided by what Paul affor mentioned.

Paul is not trying to defend or teach the perpetuity of The ORAL traditions of his grandmother and mother any more than the perpetuity of his own oral teaching of Timothy

He's telling Timothy to continue in them. What do you think that means. Continue in the Traditions you have been taught and the scriptures etc....

The Scripture is the basis for grandmother, mother and Paul in his training,

NO because of the word AND. Continue in what you have been taught (Tradition) AND the Scriptures. Two distinct items.

as the scripture provides the necessary doctrine, instruction, correction and reproof and it is the scripture not oral tradition that made him wise to salvation.

Scriptures do provide necessary doctrine so that the man can do good works. Don't forget timothy is asked to continue in what he had been orally taught.

The consistent focus is on the scripture not some perpetuated oral tradition.

The focus is for Timothy to continue in what he was orally taught and to use the tools of scripture which will thoroughly furnish him to do all good works. that is what the passage says and means.

 

[The Biblicist]

He's telling Timothy to continue in them. What do you think that means. Continue in the Traditions you have been taught and the scriptures etc....

He is telling him to continue in what they taught him FROM THE SCRIPTURES not from an oral tradition!

NO because of the word AND. Continue in what you have been taught (Tradition) AND the Scriptures. Two distinct items.

No such animal exists in the text! The scriptures are designated as the source from which he was being taught not oral tradition. The teaching or exposition of the scriptures not the external source of oral tradition.

Scriptures do provide necessary doctrine so that the man can do good works.

Not for "ALL" good works if Oral tradition is necessary in ADDITION to the scripures!

The focus is for Timothy to continue in what he was orally taught and to use the tools of scripture which will thoroughly furnish him to do all good works. that is what the passage says and means.

Not so! The focus is not on oral tradition at all. The focus is upon the scriptures as the SOURCE of teaching by his grandmother, mother and Paul. There is no ADDITIONAL source being drawn from to teach him other than ONLY the scriptures.

 

[DaChaser1]

vs. 14 is included in the discourse therefore. Continue in what you have been taught and remember the scriptures as well because it is the inspired word of God. IE. Two things told to timothy. Also note Thoroughly Equiped to do good works provided by what Paul affor mentioned.



He's telling Timothy to continue in them. What do you think that means. Continue in the Traditions you have been taught and the scriptures etc....

NO because of the word AND. Continue in what you have been taught (Tradition) AND the Scriptures. Two distinct items.


Scriptures do provide necessary doctrine so that the man can do good works. Don't forget timothy is asked to continue in what he had been orally taught.

The focus is for Timothy to continue in what he was orally taught and to use the tools of scripture which will thoroughly furnish him to do all good works. that is what the passage says and means.

So when I tell my 2 sons about jesus and what that means to them. that would be inspired traditions?

 

[Grace&Truth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
He's telling Timothy to continue in them. What do you think that means. Continue in the Traditions you have been taught and the scriptures etc....

Biblicist: He is telling him to continue in what they taught him FROM THE SCRIPTURES not from an oral tradition!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
NO because of the word AND. Continue in what you have been taught (Tradition) AND the Scriptures. Two distinct items.

Biblicist: No such animal exists in the text! The scriptures are designated as the source from which he was being taught not oral tradition. The teaching or exposition of the scriptures not the external source of oral tradition.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
Scriptures do provide necessary doctrine so that the man can do good works.

Biblicist: Not for "ALL" good works if Oral tradition is necessary in ADDITION to the scripures!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
The focus is for Timothy to continue in what he was orally taught and to use the tools of scripture which will thoroughly furnish him to do all good works. that is what the passage says and means.

Biblicist: Not so! The focus is not on oral tradition at all. The focus is upon the scriptures as the SOURCE of teaching by his grandmother, mother and Paul. There is no ADDITIONAL source being drawn from to teach him other than ONLY the scriptures.

Don't forget to continue with what Paul admonished Timothy with after these verses in Chapter 4...Timothy was to Preach the Word (Scripture) not tradition. Anytime one teaches or preaches, it should be from the Word of God otherwise how would we know if it is true? No where does God ever tell us to teach or preach tradition...if so anyone could claim whatever they are teaching is from tradition. We need a written Word that is True to study and search to see if what one is teaching is true.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Book, chapter and verse where God reveals that is the truth please?

Not required - besides that is an argument from silence. Not everything is recorded in scripture and scripture says that about itself.

WM

 

[WestminsterMan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
He's telling Timothy to continue in them. What do you think that means. Continue in the Traditions you have been taught and the scriptures etc....

Biblicist: He is telling him to continue in what they taught him FROM THE SCRIPTURES not from an oral tradition!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
NO because of the word AND. Continue in what you have been taught (Tradition) AND the Scriptures. Two distinct items.

Biblicist: No such animal exists in the text! The scriptures are designated as the source from which he was being taught not oral tradition. The teaching or exposition of the scriptures not the external source of oral tradition.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
Scriptures do provide necessary doctrine so that the man can do good works.

Biblicist: Not for "ALL" good works if Oral tradition is necessary in ADDITION to the scripures!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
The focus is for Timothy to continue in what he was orally taught and to use the tools of scripture which will thoroughly furnish him to do all good works. that is what the passage says and means.

Biblicist: Not so! The focus is not on oral tradition at all. The focus is upon the scriptures as the SOURCE of teaching by his grandmother, mother and Paul. There is no ADDITIONAL source being drawn from to teach him other than ONLY the scriptures.

Don't forget to continue with what Paul admonished Timothy with after these verses in Chapter 4...Timothy was to Preach the Word (Scripture) not tradition. Anytime one teaches or preaches, it should be from the Word of God otherwise how would we know if it is true? No where does God ever tell us to teach or preach tradition...if so anyone could claim whatever they are teaching is from tradition. We need a written Word that is True to study and search to see if what one is teaching is true.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Jesus never wrote anything down and He never required that of the Apostles. They got their teachings orally - that is the basis of the NT.

WM