Understanding Romans 8:5-9

Van,

These are no more Baptists than Joseph Smith was, and they are every bit as false.

They are Hyper-Dispensationalists, and IMHO after years of dealing with such, their only concern is to stir controversy among believing Christians, evidently for the purpose of leading them away from the light, and into the darkness.'

They are not interested in "Bible Study", and know very little about "Theology" as you can surely tell by how they have responded to you.

Come out from among them, they do not serve the Lord.

 

:laugh::laugh: You are Van's first disciple.....even Marshall Applewhite got 39 people to try and travel to the comet.:thumbsup:

I knew when you could not respond biblically what the next step would be:wavey: I saw you and your personal attack coming from a mile away....nice try.....

 

VAN,
I can give you credit in that you openly stand with your errors:thumbsup: With you at least openly confessing where you stand....of course we cannot agree at all....you have been answered by many here, who believe the truth of God. You reject truth everyday...with what you believe....it is not possible to understand the verses unless God allows you to.

 

Doesn't any level of open theism state there are certain "things" that God doesn't know beforehand? If that's the case, then count me out.

As someone stated before, God doesn't have "aha" moments. He knows all there is to know, even a million years from now.

 

I agree in that I don't believe God's Divine knowledge can be discribed by Open Theism, but nor do I believe it has been boxed in correctly with Classical/Closed theism (which often leads to a Determinist view); that's why I have leanings toward something similar to Molinism.

 

How many legs does a New World Monkey have if you call the tail a leg. (in reply to Benjamin's signature).

 

As usual, you do not show a single verse of scripture to support your view, while I showed multiple scriptures that refutes your doctrine.

Show me even one verse in the Bible that says a man must be regenerated in order to have the ability to believe the gospel. Just one.

I'll be waiting, but I won't hold my breath.

 

All who deny the true God accuse Him of being the author of sin....but the true God is perfect in Holiness,sinless...

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )


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Hello Van,

I do not believe God has predestined everything (correct, otherwise there would be no other answer for the P.O.E.) but I do believe in Divine foreknowledge (God knows all) and therefore long ago spent countless hours studying this while seeing both sides and while also believing that the Bible does not contradict itself. I came to believe God's type of knowledge is beyond what we finite creatures can fully understand, or completely categorize, or box in with simple phrases such as Open Theism or Classical/Closed Theism and believe both views to have shortcomings if taken to their conclusions. While studying Molinism, which attempts to address this, and pondering these questions along with holding to the Trinitarian Nature of God I've come up with enough answers for myself to find peace with my beliefs which must coincide with "truth" from all angles.

I believe there is a necessity of influence and response for truth as I know it to exist and find a belief in cause and effect very problematic concerning the truth of God's judgment and loving Nature. I know just enoough for it all to make sense for me and it all fits together quite nicely for me in consideration of the Nature of God.

If I had a whole lot of time I would love to dicuss the details in more depth but of course I also know before I even got started here the accusations would fly and a war would begin. So, to answer your charge of standing for the truth, I do, and can do it without having to hold to simple boxed terms or accept arguments of either/or, or the only answer being completely hidden in mystery.

 

Van and Benjamin,

The first open theist/molinist was.....Satan.
He despised God's control and absolute sovereignty...seeking to redefine the word of God as you men do when you ridicule the scriptures. He also believed he had free will,or that it exists alongside God s decree.

Satan said to Eve....."hath God said".....[.doubt]....then followed the lie...
"you shall not surely die" then the evil motives ascribed to God

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.



Those who rebel against God follow this same pattern today...

The result is they speak against God and His church,ascribing evil motives to God and His followers

1] God is not in complete control, things can exist or happen that He cannot control
2] The whole church is wrong
3] God is the author of sin,a monster,makes robots,etc

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

Believers are content with God, His commandments,and His people.
They read the account of Satan and his rebellion and turn away from this error.
You men are in danger and need to also turn from these ungodly errors.


1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

BTW Van,

Iconoclast repeatedly posts his “Holy Confessional” again and again, which is actually philosophizing a view of compatibility based on a theory of second causes, and I think he, Iconoclast, believes these words to be as true as the scripture Itself. It amounts to him saying these words must be true, he “confesses” them to be true, in a cultic way as far I’m concerned, while misinterpreting the actual meaning and logic and him only focusing on the determinism end of these words of men to a great fault. Determinism is a lie of Satan, who knows the scriptures well and will use them to proclaim that God’s message of light is full of darkness. Because of holding the “confession” in so high a regard he will accuse others of not knowing God if they reject his interpretation of it. His interpretation sees God determining all things (Hard/Hyper Determinism) while he neglects to see the philosophical input of compatibility through second causes as added into that theory of determinism expressed in his “Holy” confession, nor does he recognize that the writers of that confession were in error while presenting that view of second causes and trying to hold to determinism. He presents scripture with highlighted words as if they support his view while missing the context in much the same way that he does concerning the confesion which he holds in authority.

He does not even believe his view, that he attempts to prove from the confession, to be built on philosophical principles of interpretation of the scriptures but appears to hold it in higher regard than mere men’s words as if it were prophesy or something. He even does this while foregoing the parts which relate to compatibility which are vital because of the necessity of upholding creaturely volition (free will) to avoid theological fatalism.

The problems with this type of reasoning are obvious. Along with outright denial of his own philosophical thinking in regards to his view (supposedly built on the confession) he then attacks through continually accusing others on this board of using philosophy and not knowing God if they are to disagree with his view. How does one explain something/anything to someone with that kind of (cultic?) mindset? The mindset that God Himself opened his eyes to see the truth through this... "confession", and will go about to force fit scriptures to fit his philosophy while openly proclaiming that others must be blind if they don’t see it his way? It would take some kind of serious intervention to break him away from what he has allowed himself to be programmed into believing. His objective is to "teach" others "his truth" and trying to reason with him in a rational way is useless.

 

Benjamin,
These confessions are held by millions as a guide to scriptural truth.

You do not interact with them,offer no verses once again, and drone on and on about second causes and other philosphical babbling.

You offer this kind of verbose statement....which no one really knows what you are trying to say

No thanks Benjamin! We will stay with scripture,the confessions based on scripture, catechisms, and other study helps. You can correspond with Van, and Skan....post long winded philosphical, anti-scriptural posts, and continue on without offering anything edifying....just keep on attacking the Church:thumbsup:

 

I'm well aware of your claims of the "confession" to be the Church and thereby in authority. I think I've covered this before along with the problems with your belief. I get it Iconoclast, don't agree with you, and understand that you are unable to connect the dots of where "your truth" actually comes from (trying to use the philosophy of the confession while missing important points within it and claiming authority and agreement with millions who in reality don't see it as equal with scripture and interpret it differently than you do as they don't disregard the compatibility and necessity of creaturely volition (free will) within it).

Even as I wrote my post above this one you prove my points, already stated and not worth repeating, on another tread:

Sorry, but you and your confession carry no weight with me as being in authority because of being the "Church". Save that dogma for use on someone who thinks hgher of your reasoning skills and special insights.

 

Benjamin,
No one has to use a confession of faith. The confessions all start with scripture to protect the saints. I think you would do well to take another look at them.
Chapter 1: Of the Holy Scriptures
1._____ The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalms 19:1-3; Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19,20 )
2._____Under the name of Holy Scripture, or the Word of God written, are now contained all the books of the Old and New Testaments, which are these:

OF THE OLD TESTAMENT: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, I Samuel, II Samuel, I Kings, II Kings, I Chronicles, II Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, The Song of Solomen, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations,Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi

OF THE NEW TESTAMENT: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, The Acts of the Apostles, Paul's Epistle to the Romans, I Corinthians, II Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I Thessalonians, II Thessalonians, I Timothy, II Timothy, To Titus, To Philemon, The Epistle to the Hebrews, Epistle of James, The first and second Epistles of Peter, The first, second, and third Epistles of John, The Epistle of Jude, The Revelation

All of which are given by the inspiration of God, to be the rule of faith and life.
( 2 Timothy 3:16)

3._____ The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the canon or rule of the Scripture, and, therefore, are of no authority to the church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved or made use of than other human writings.
( Luke 24:27, 44; Romans 3:2 )

4._____ The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or church, but wholly upon God (who is truth itself), the author thereof; therefore it is to be received because it is the Word of God.
( 2 Peter 1:19-21; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 John 5:9 )

5._____We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the church of God to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scriptures; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, and the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, and many other incomparable excellencies, and entire perfections thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth, and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.
( John 16:13,14; 1 Corinthians 2:10-12; 1 John 2:20, 27)

6._____The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word, and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.
( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Galatians 1:8,9; John 6:45; 1 Corinthians 2:9-12; 1 Corinthians 11:13, 14; 1 Corinthians 14:26,40)

7._____All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of ordinary means, may attain to a sufficient understanding of them.
( 2 Peter 3:16; Psalms 19:7; Psalms 119:130)

8._____The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them. But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have a right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded in the fear of God to read and search them, therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come, that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship him in an acceptable manner, and through patience and comfort of the Scriptures may have hope.
( Romans 3:2; Isaiah 8:20; Acts 15:15; John 5:39; 1 Corinthians 14:6, 9, 11, 12, 24, 28; Colossians 3:16 )

9._____The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself; and therefore when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched by other places that speak more clearly.
( 2 Peter 1:20, 21; Acts 15:15, 16)

10.____The supreme judge, by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Scripture delivered by the Spirit, into which Scripture so delivered, our faith is finally resolved.( Matthew 22:29, 31, 32; Ephesians 2:20; Acts 28:23)

Benjamin...we cannot agree, unless we can agree on scripture,Those who wrote the confessions were all about scripture. The confessions themselves are clear.....

 

Iconoclast, how many times must I point out the philosophical input from those who wrote the confession for you to "get it"?! Compatibility through second causes is a "philosophical theory" ...not to mention you don't even seem to recognize how you obviously pick and choose which parts of that philosophy from the confession to adhere to. Seesh!