Understanding Romans 8:5-9

[quantumfaith]

Van and Benjamin,

The first open theist/molinist was.....Satan.
He despised God's control and absolute sovereignty...seeking to redefine the word of God as you men do when you ridicule the scriptures. He also believed he had free will,or that it exists alongside God s decree.

Satan said to Eve....."hath God said".....[.doubt]....then followed the lie...
"you shall not surely die" then the evil motives ascribed to God

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.



Those who rebel against God follow this same pattern today...

The result is they speak against God and His church,ascribing evil motives to God and His followers

1] God is not in complete control, things can exist or happen that He cannot control
2] The whole church is wrong
3] God is the author of sin,a monster,makes robots,etc

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

Believers are content with God, His commandments,and His people.
They read the account of Satan and his rebellion and turn away from this error.
You men are in danger and need to also turn from these ungodly errors.


1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Icon, this ad nauseum claim and attack is getting old. Try, just try, to accept that anyone who does not abide by the Canons of Dordrecht may still in fact view the sovereignty of God as honorably and wonderfully as you yourself claim to do.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon, this ad nauseum claim and attack is getting old. Try, just try, to accept that anyone who does not abide by the Canons of Dordrecht may still in fact view the sovereignty of God as honorably and wonderfully as you yourself claim to do.

in this very thread you have people claiming God does not know things and God does not predestine things...... maybe you want to address that first..if not...maybe you agree with those ideas?

 

[quantumfaith]

in this very thread you have people claiming God does not know things and God does not predestine things...... maybe you want to address that first..if not...maybe you agree with those ideas?

Icon,

Did they say God cannot know something (as in he is unable to) or are they saying he "chooses" not to know somethings? An important but subtle difference...for me. Although, it is still not MY position. I think that this is one of the false and misleading criticisms of OT. Most people who have some position approaching OT, (that I have encountered) have never said God is "unable to do or know something".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Icon,

Did they say God cannot know something (as in he is unable to) or are they saying he "chooses" not to know somethings? An important but subtle difference...for me. Although, it is still not MY position. I think that this is one of the false and misleading criticisms of OT. Most people who have some position approaching OT, (that I have encountered) have never said God is "unable to do or know something".

Are you kidding me :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Seriously Dave, please provide me with more clarification for what your saying....I dont want to misunderstand you. Thanks.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

VAN,
I can give you credit in that you openly stand with your errors:thumbsup: With you at least openly confessing where you stand....of course we cannot agree at all....you have been answered by many here, who believe the truth of God. You reject truth everyday...with what you believe....it is not possible to understand the verses unless God allows you to.

Yea.....I will give him that even though he have ignored the countless times I have personally told him that he has the wrong views on what Salvation of Grace believers actually believe, so your right on the money Brother Iconoclast, this fellow rejects truth every day.... scripture has a name for this, but Horse Feathers will get all bent outa shape if I reveal it. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Van]

Hi there EWF

Yea.....I will give him that even though he have ignored the countless times I have personally told him that he has the wrong views on what Salvation of Grace believers actually believe, so your right on the money Brother Iconoclast, this fellow rejects truth every day.... scripture has a name for this, but Horse Feathers will get all bent outa shape if I reveal it. :smilewinkgrin:

Please stop claiming I am wrong unless you support your view from what scripture actually says.

EWF likes to disparage others and shift discussion to his opponents behavior. Pure twaddle folks, pure twaddle.

Calvinism is based on the logical impossibility of God predestining everything yet is not the author of sin. Pure twaddle, folks, pure twaddle.

 

[Van]

Hi Ben, for us to discuss your view, you must put it out there with clarity. Otherwise, your post simply says, I am happy with my undisclosed view.

But one thing is for sure, God was the first open theist, because He chose to not predestine everything, such as our sins.

 

[DaChaser1]

:laugh::laugh: You are Van's first disciple.....even Marshall Applewhite got 39 people to try and travel to the comet.:thumbsup:

I knew when you could not respond biblically what the next step would be:wavey: I saw you and your personal attack coming from a mile away....nice try.....

ironic that You are perhaps the one that answers van the most, and yet you are reformed baptist, FAR from a Hyper Dispy!

 

[DaChaser1]

Icon,

Did they say God cannot know something (as in he is unable to) or are they saying he "chooses" not to know somethings? An important but subtle difference...for me. Although, it is still not MY position. I think that this is one of the false and misleading criticisms of OT. Most people who have some position approaching OT, (that I have encountered) have never said God is "unable to do or know something".

can God chose to sin? IF he was able to 'will" that he NOT be able to know future events before they occured, to be 'stuck" in linear time processing just as we Humans now are....

Can God really claim to be the Alpha/omega, with NO begiining or end, and knowing all that has ever existed, and ever shall be?

the problem with Open theists seems to be they confuse knowing all and causing all?

God in His foreknowledge knows all things, some he orained/caused it to pass, others events were allowed to happen, But still God was NEVER "caught short/surprised" by the Future!

 

[DaChaser1]

Hi Ben, for us to discuss your view, you must put it out there with clarity. Otherwise, your post simply says, I am happy with my undisclosed view.

But one thing is for sure, God was the first open theist, because He chose to not predestine everything, such as our sins.

ONE MORE TIME!

calvinists do NOT hold that God predestined as the direct cause ALL events, and God is NOT author of Sin!

WHY are yopu so afraid to accept that God is sovereign, and he has divine attributes that ARE eternal, part of His very nature/being, and one is that he knows EVERYTHING that can be known/period?

 

[marke]

Who are those who are “according to the flesh?” They are natural fallen people, unsaved, unelected and unregenerate. They are “in Adam” and not “in Christ.”

* * * *
Now lets return to our unanswered question, does this passage say or suggest those who are according to the flesh, unregenerate and unsaved, cannot at any time set their minds on spiritual things such as the milk of the gospel.
And the answer is no. In fact it suggests godly behavior cuts no ice if we are according to the flesh.

I believe this does not adequately summarize the whole of the intended meaning of these passages. The truth presented is that the nature of the flesh does not seek nor desire to seek or to please God. The nature of the born again believer in Christ is perfect, "old things are passed away, behold all things are become new."

"Whosoever is born of God doth not sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin because he is born of God." Let's take a look at this for a minute before turning the leaf over, so to speak, and looking at the other side. What is good about a Christian? Paul said about himself, after his conversion, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dewlleth no good thing..."

Christians may be saved, but they still sin. If Christians still sin, what of Christ in them and their "all things are become new" nature that "cannot sin"? Paul said, "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dewlleth in me." (ROM. 7:20)

So, if we sin after we are saved, and it is no more I that do it, then whose responsibility is it and who is made accountable for the sin? We are, the saved who allow our flesh to cause us to sin. That is why we must "confess our sins, so the faithful and just Lord will forgive those sins and wash us again, making us once again free from all unrighteousness.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)

A born again believer does not become filthy all over again by sin, because he has been once for all washed in the blood of the Lamb. But a believer can walk in sin, displeasing the Lord, bringing reproach on the savior and having to be disciplined by God, but he can never become unclean again after he is made clean at salvation.

"Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all." (John 13:8-10)

Every born again believer is "clean every whit", but every born again believer sometimes walks in the flesh and must have his feet washed again to become once again "cleansed from all unrighteousness."

Can a believer walk in perfection without sinning? It is possible, but never likely for very long, in my opinion. 1 John tells us we know we still sin, so that is a given. But here is hope:

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye SHALL NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh." (Gal. 5:16)

 

[Van]

Reply to fiction

ONE MORE TIME!

calvinists do NOT hold that God predestined as the direct cause ALL events, and God is NOT author of Sin!

WHY are yopu so afraid to accept that God is sovereign, and he has divine attributes that ARE eternal, part of His very nature/being, and one is that he knows EVERYTHING that can be known/period?

Repeating deflections of the truth will avail us nothing. If the secondary cause is predestined, and it is because everything is predestined, then God is the author of sin.

If I am predestined to fire the gun, and the gun is predestined to discharge the bullet, and the bullet is predestined to smash into my foot, then God is still the author of my smashed foot, not me, not the gun, not the bullet. You cannot avoid the logical necessity of your position.

God is sovereign, but sovereign is not code for exhaustive determinism. God has divine attributes including saying what He means and meaning what He says.

I have not addressed the scope of God's knowledge because the Board Rulers in their sovereign judgment claim their view is orthodox and my view is unorthodox.

But God said now I know, which means He did not know beforehand. God said in forty days Nineveh will be overturned and so if He knew He would not overturn it would be a behavior inconsistent with His divine attributes of saying what He means and meaning what He says.

 

[Van]

Hi Marke, I see you seem to be hung up on John saying if we say we have no sin we lie, and yet when have no sin. The usual way this is answered is to say even though we sin, if we are in Christ, it is just as if we did not sin, for we are justified. However, how can we grow more spiritually like Christ if we do not confess our sins and strive to avoid them in the future? So we are to confess and repent and strive to be more Christ-like, even though our shortcomings are justified.

 

[Iconoclast]

ironic that You are perhaps the one that answers van the most, and yet you are reformed baptist, FAR from a Hyper Dispy!

Correct JF.....when they attack they are not concerned with what anyone really believes....they just lump everyone together....I anm no longer dispensational, much less Hyper:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[DaChaser1]

Repeating deflections of the truth will avail us nothing. If the secondary cause is predestined, and it is because everything is predestined, then God is the author of sin.

If I am predestined to fire the gun, and the gun is predestined to discharge the bullet, and the bullet is predestined to smash into my foot, then God is still the author of my smashed foot, not me, not the gun, not the bullet. You cannot avoid the logical necessity of your position.

God is sovereign, but sovereign is not code for exhaustive determinism. God has divine attributes including saying what He means and meaning what He says.

I have not addressed the scope of God's knowledge because the Board Rulers in their sovereign judgment claim their view is orthodox and my view is unorthodox.

But God said now I know, which means He did not know beforehand. God said in forty days Nineveh will be overturned and so if He knew He would not overturn it would be a behavior inconsistent with His divine attributes of saying what He means and meaning what He says.

This is the Bible answer!

God has predestined ALL things to happen after the pleasure of His own good will, that he has everything go according to His plans/purposes...

Some things He direct causes, others He uses intermediate agents!

NEVER a time when god says"Oh no, didn't see that coming, have to switch my Plans, think something else up now!"

 

[marke]

Hi Marke, I see you seem to be hung up on John saying if we say we have no sin we lie, and yet when have no sin. The usual way this is answered is to say even though we sin, if we are in Christ, it is just as if we did not sin, for we are justified. However, how can we grow more spiritually like Christ if we do not confess our sins and strive to avoid them in the future? So we are to confess and repent and strive to be more Christ-like, even though our shortcomings are justified.

The NT speaks very highly of Christians. We are not referred to as drunks, whoremongers, adulterers, etc., including liars. We know all liars will go to the Lake of Fire with all other sinners (Rev. 21:8), but no Christian will be among them. I believe there is a reason for this which goes beyond theoretical. Matt. 7 tells us that a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.

A Christian has in this life the remnants of the old nature which is referred to as the "flesh" which wars against the new nature. There is no good thing in our flesh and the flesh will not be accompanying us to heaven. We are told in Romans 6:11 to reckon the flesh to be dead and to see ourselves alive in Christ, able to walk in newness of life. We are also told that if we do not walk in the Spirit we will end up serving the flesh, which does not please God and which will bring forth death.

The key to victorious living is to be able to walk with God so we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If we say this is impossible, we will never see the victory. We must reckon ourselves to be dead to the flesh. Hebrews tells us to "labor to enter into rest." That is not about salvation, except in the area of providing assurance to the believer, but is primarily about successful Christian living. When Israel came out of Egypt, they were "baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea" (1 Cor. 10) as a type of salvation, but the goal was not the wilderness, the goal was the promised land.

The promised land was not a type of heaven but a type of victorious Christian living. When we are encouraged to labor to enter into rest (Heb. 4:11) we are not being told to labor to enter into heaven but to labor to enter into victorious living in Christ, where He will fight our battles against the world, the flesh, and the devil for us.