Not all people are children of God

[mont974x4]

All Scriptures quoted from the NASB

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
Joh 8:43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
Joh 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Joh 8:45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.


And these which speaks of adoption
(Rom 8:15) For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

(Rom 8:23) And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

(Rom 9:4) who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,

(Gal 4:5) so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

(Eph 1:5) He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

 

[Iconoclast]

All Scriptures quoted from the NASB

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
Joh 8:43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
Joh 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Joh 8:45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.


And these which speaks of adoption
(Rom 8:15) For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

(Rom 8:23) And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

(Rom 9:4) who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,

(Gal 4:5) so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

(Eph 1:5) He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[ACF]

Not sure where you are going with these scriptures.

Are you saying you believe Satan can create?

Or, are you asking if this is so?

 

[mont974x4]

Not sure where you are going with these scriptures.

Are you saying you believe Satan can create?

Or, are you asking if this is so?

I am not saying Satan can create. Nor am I asking a question.

By and large I hear people claim that all people are God's children. That simply is not true in light of Scripture. We may all be created by God but that does not mean we are His children. The elect have been given a spirit of adoption and made sons. We have been transferred into God's Kingdom.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am not saying Stan can create. Nor am I asking a question.

By and large I hear people claim that all people are God's children. That simply is not true in light of Scripture. We may all be created by God but that does not mean we are His children. The elect have been given a spirit of adoption and made sons. We have been transferred into God's Kingdom.

Inability to comprehend Divine truth is a mark;


43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[mont974x4]

Inability to comprehend Divine truth is a mark;


43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

True. Jesus used sheep to illustrate the same point.

Joh 10:14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
Joh 10:15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.


Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
Joh 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
Joh 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

 

[Benjamin]

"Not all people are the children of God"

":thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:"

…God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time…

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

 

[Iconoclast]

"Not all people are the children of God"



…God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time…

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

No Benjamin...not all people are God's children.That is a heretical idea.

as per Jesus:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
Inability to comprehend Divine truth is a mark;


43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[psalms109:31]

John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Luke 11 :
46 Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”

1 Thessalonians 2:
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]

 

[psalms109:31]

Matthew 11:19
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

Jesus had not a problem with sinners, the problem He had is with people who did not trust Him and His word. The wise and the learned who knew it all.

They didn't come to Jesus to listen and learn, they wanted to trip Him, make Him stumble.

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble. The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD.

 

[Winman]

No Benjamin...not all people are God's children.That is a heretical idea.

as per Jesus:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
Inability to comprehend Divine truth is a mark;


43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Wow, I can read that without my reading glasses.

You cannot take a verse spoken to particular persons and apply it to all men. Jesus often spoke of "your Father" in scripture.

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

How would you explain this verse? Jesus tells people they are evil, and yet calls God their Father?

When the Jews were sacrificing their infants to idols, God called these infants, "my children" and said they were "borne unto me".

Eze 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

I believe the scriptures show we are born upright, children of God, but then become children of wrath when we knowingly and willingly sin. This is shown in the parable of the prodigal son.

Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:


<FONT color=black>The prodigal son was not lost origin

 

[Iconoclast]

Wow, I can read that without my reading glasses.

You cannot take a verse spoken to particular persons and apply it to all men. Jesus often spoke of "your Father" in scripture.


You cannot return to God if you were born separated from him. You cannot return someplace you have never been, and you cannot go astray from some place you have never been.
[QUOTE I do not believe the scriptures show man born dead in sin and separated from God.
]

And I do not believe the verse you quoted applies to everyone, but certain men who made a wilfull decision to reject Christ and the word of God.[/QUOTE]

Winman, We do not agree here[the bolded portion]
We will never come to agreement until we could agree here.
Jews believed they were all children of God...they were not.
If all were God's children...no one would need to be adopted.....

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[convicted1]

Inability to comprehend Divine truth is a mark;


43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Context reigns supreme, my Brother, context.

In this passage, Jesus was talking to the Jews who were judiciously hardened through years/centuries of unbelief. They could not believe because their hearts became hardened and their ears dulled of hearing due to continual rebellion/unbelief. Look @ Malachi 1:

Malachi 1:6-14

6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.

8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.

9 And now, I pray you, beseech God that he will be gracious unto us: this hath been by your means: will he regard your persons? saith the LORD of hosts.

10 Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought? neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought. I have no pleasure in you, saith the LORD of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand.

11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

12 But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.

13 Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.

14 But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the LORD a corrupt thing: for I am a great King, saith the LORD of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.

Right here shows that they were profaning the altar by offering what they did not want, when it was required under the Law to offer the best they had. It was due to their rebellion that God cut them off, and we Gentiles were grafted in.


Now, in John 8:44, you posted Ye are of your father, the devil......". Now, do you think they were his children through creation? No, I am sure you don't. Then, what was Jesus really saying when He made such an statement? It was that they were under satan's influence because they were cut off due to the Jews continual rebellion/unbelief. Remember, Jesus stated that they could be grafted in again, if they did not remain in unbelief.

Romans 11:17-36

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

So, even if the most rigid Jew comes to true faith in Jesus Christ, God will save that one. They were blinded so the we could come into play. The Jews are now on the same "playing field" we are on. It is by "Grace through faith, not of yourselves, but it is a gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast." The Jew has to come to be in Christ this way also.

 

[preacher4truth]

As Dr. Lutzer wisely says, if you have the wrong doctrine of sin, you have a wrong doctrine about everything (or something very close). He's right.

His stand is biblical, all born in sin, separated from God. I know of no Baptists that believe otherwise accept for online "baptists."

Here is a post from one using a 'proof text' to say we are all the children of God:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1790342#post1790342

Hopefully he has recanted his errant doctrine.

 

[Benjamin]

Inability to comprehend Divine truth is a mark;

Note: Then Iconoclast, hear the words that long ago rejected a message such as yours, your doctrinal resemblance is almost incredible, in comparison to the presumptions of the Jews, whose attempts to diminish the Gospel message being genuinely offered to all while making boastful proclamations for themselves along the lines of pre-selection and pedigree were repudiated:

(Mat 3:9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

The axe has been laid to the roots of the kind of law givers, philosophers and false prophets that love to proudly proclaim to others at every opportunity that they are of privileged pedigree, “the specially pre-selected few”.

 

[Iconoclast]

Note: Then Iconoclast, hear the words that long ago rejected a message such as yours, your doctrinal resemblance is almost incredible, in comparison to the presumptions of the Jews, whose attempts to diminish the Gospel message being genuinely offered to all while making boastful proclamations for themselves along the lines of pre-selection and pedigree were repudiated:

(Mat 3:9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

The axe has been laid to the roots of the kind of law givers, philosophers and false prophets that love to proudly proclaim to others at every opportunity that they are of privileged pedigree, “the specially pre-selected few”.

Benjamin, my friend.....one of us does not seem rightly related to the gospel.
I think i know who it is. From your constant attacks I think you feel that way about me...which is ok. My desire for you would be that you know God savingly. I cannot see your heart,
I do not see any evidence in your posts to me that I should regard you as a brother.You seem to be an adversary...I cannot sugar coat it.It is possible that we just clash so much that it seems that way.

As to your post....The jews looked to their physical birth as a reason that they were better than others.....you as a member of Team Jihad seek to put this on any cal here on the BB.....we are proud ,blind, Pharisees,,,,,you are the enlightened one...always taking the higher ground.

It is you who are puffed up my friend, and the finger you point this way has three pointing back at you. Carnal reasoning is your method,philosophy, and excessive hubris.....under a very thin ,religious veneer is what you employ.
I cannot help you as you resist what I offer. Perhaps another brother can be of more help to you.
I have at no time seen one of your posts that I thought was helpful at all, just snide remarks which do not profit anyone.
I understand you do not agree at all doctrinally. That is okay. Perhaps you cannot offer a scriptural remedy, or those verses you offer have been shot down. I will stick to the truth of the historic faith.

God has made Himself known to me.I am not ashamed of the gospel as it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth....we call the everyone who believes the elect of God...sorry if that offends you...but it is than language of God revealed to His elect sheep....sinner s who believe by a God given repentance and faith. Maybe the day will come we can be on the same team....but as for now..I am not interested in being on Team Jihad.

 

[quantumfaith]

Benjamin, my friend.....one of us does not seem rightly related to the gospel.
I think i know who it is. From your constant attacks I think you feel that way about me...which is ok. My desire for you would be that you know God savingly. I cannot see your heart,
I do not see any evidence in your posts to me that I should regard you as a brother.You seem to be an adversary...I cannot sugar coat it.It is possible that we just clash so much that it seems that way.

As to your post....The jews looked to their physical birth as a reason that they were better than others.....you as a member of Team Jihad seek to put this on any cal here on the BB.....we are proud ,blind, Pharisees,,,,,you are the enlightened one...always taking the higher ground.

It is you who are puffed up my friend, and the finger you point this way has three pointing back at you. Carnal reasoning is your method,philosophy, and excessive hubris.....under a very thin ,religious veneer is what you employ.
I cannot help you as you resist what I offer. Perhaps another brother can be of more help to you.
I have at no time seen one of your posts that I thought was helpful at all, just snide remarks which do not profit anyone.
I understand you do not agree at all doctrinally. That is okay. Perhaps you cannot offer a scriptural remedy, or those verses you offer have been shot down. I will stick to the truth of the historic faith.

God has made Himself known to me.I am not ashamed of the gospel as it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth....we call the everyone who believes the elect of God...sorry if that offends you...but it is than language of God revealed to His elect sheep....sinner s who believe by a God given repentance and faith. Maybe the day will come we can be on the same team....but as for now..I am not interested in being on Team Jihad.

Come on Icon, is this not the very same thing that you accuse Benjamin and anyone who does not align with reformational theology? Are you unable to call anyone who does not profess adherence to DoG as a brother in Christ?

 

[Winman]

As Dr. Lutzer wisely says, if you have the wrong doctrine of sin, you have a wrong doctrine about everything (or something very close). He's right.

His stand is biblical, all born in sin, separated from God. I know of no Baptists that believe otherwise accept for online "baptists."

Here is a post from one using a 'proof text' to say we are all the children of God:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1790342#post1790342

Hopefully he has recanted his errant doctrine.

As usual, you attack whoever you disagree with without addressing the scripture shown.

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Again, how could Jesus tell these persons they are evil and yet say "your Father which is in heaven". How could God be their father if Satan is their father? Did Jesus forget?

Eze 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

Again, if we are born dead in sin, separated from God, children of the devil, how could God call these infants that were sacrificed "my children"?

Why don't you address the scripture I have provided? All you do is make personal attacks.

 

[Iconoclast]

Come on Icon, is this not the very same thing that you accuse Benjamin and anyone who does not align with reformational theology? Are you unable to call anyone who does not profess adherence to DoG as a brother in Christ?

QF....I missed your comment on benjamins post......where he is accusing calvinists of being like the unsaved jewish leaders and false prophets...
does not look like the post of a christian brother at all...did I miss read it?

here in case you missed it;

Then Iconoclast, hear the words that long ago rejected a message such as yours, your doctrinal resemblance is almost incredible, in comparison to the presumptions of the Jews, whose attempts to diminish the Gospel message being genuinely offered to all while making boastful proclamations for themselves along the lines of pre-selection and pedigree were repudiated:
(Mat 3:9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

The axe has been laid to the roots of the kind of law givers, philosophers and false prophets that love to proudly proclaim to others at every opportunity that they are of privileged pedigree, “the specially pre-selected few”.

QF.....how do you read that??? Which part was the edifying part??? Besides the fact that he does not understand election of a multitude ,more than the sand of the sea...he perverts that to a 'pre-selected few"....explain it to me QF. His posts do not surprise me...they are snide, devoid of scripture , and oppose the historic faith,,,other than that I will give them your 4 thumbs up.

 

[Iconoclast]

Willis,

Jn 8 shows not all men are God's children...do not even have to apply it to anyone in particular..it teaches all men are not God's children.
as does romans 9 in my earlier post. If all men were God's children...no one would need to be adopted.:wavey:

Your malachi verses were good though:thumbs: