Does God Justify Us Apart From ANY Works?

[jbh28]

It's NOT faith! These have never HEARD the law! They do it by nature because the law has been written on their hearts! You err in saying faith produces works. The circumcised heart is the source of both faith and works.

Who hasn't heard the law? I don't err. Stop with your ranting. Faith produces good works. James says so. A person that has true faith will have works. A person that doesn't have faith will not work because he is not really believing. Read James 2.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

you must really hate this verse

 

[kyredneck]

Who hasn't heard the law?

These:

"for not the hearers of the law....but the doers of the law shall be justified: (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law,"

I don't err.

Oh yes you do. It's the ground that produces the beans and tomatoes.

It's not the beans that produces the tomatoes.

Stop with your ranting.

An exclamation mark or two and I'm ranting?

Faith produces good works.

No. It's the ground that produces the beans and tomatoes. It's not the beans that produces the tomatoes.

James says so.

No. James is saying that good ground will produce beans AND tomatoes.

A person that has true faith will have works. A person that doesn't have faith will not work because he is not really believing. Read James 2.

Which came first here, works or faith in Christ?:

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

Irregardless, both came about because God has first wrought within.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

you must really hate this verse

?????

 

[DaChaser1]

These:

"for not the hearers of the law....but the doers of the law shall be justified: (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law,"



Oh yes you do. It's the ground that produces the beans and tomatoes.

It's not the beans that produces the tomatoes.



An exclamation mark or two and I'm ranting?



No. It's the ground that produces the beans and tomatoes. It's not the beans that produces the tomatoes.



No. James is saying that good ground will produce beans AND tomatoes.



Which came first here, works or faith in Christ?:

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

Irregardless, both came about because God has first wrought within.



?????

How many good works did the thief on cross do to inherit eternal life?

 

[kyredneck]

How many good works did the thief on cross do to inherit eternal life?

How many good works had David done before he commited adultry with Bathsheba and had her husband killed?

Do you believe good people get caught up in bad things?

I know they do.

 

[DaChaser1]

How many good works had David done before he commited adultry with Bathsheba and had her husband killed?

Do you believe good people get caught up in bad things?

I know they do.

was just referring this to question of what is required by God for us to do in order to get saved?

believe on the lord jesus, and you Shall be saved!

that salvation will produce evidence/fruit of it, but that is a product of getting saved, NOT part/causing it!

 

[kyredneck]

was just referring this to question of what is required by God for us to do in order to get saved? believe on the lord jesus, and you Shall be saved!

that salvation will produce evidence/fruit of it, but that is a product of getting saved, NOT part/causing it!

Yea JF, you swoop with a broad brush one singular meaning of that word 'saved'.

You make no distinction between what man is passive in and what man is responsible for.

It is the heart that God has supernaturally written His law upon that produces the fruit which leads unto salvation in this realm. Our salvation does NOT produce the fruit.

I honestly believe much of the problem here is that there are so many Christians nowadays that have never experienced any real bona fide JOY from their salvation.

It's all become a burdensome chore to them.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

These:

"for not the hearers of the law....but the doers of the law shall be justified: (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law,"



Oh yes you do. It's the ground that produces the beans and tomatoes.

It's not the beans that produces the tomatoes.



An exclamation mark or two and I'm ranting?



No. It's the ground that produces the beans and tomatoes. It's not the beans that produces the tomatoes.



No. James is saying that good ground will produce beans AND tomatoes.



Which came first here, works or faith in Christ?:

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

Irregardless, both came about because God has first wrought within.



?????

Try this Brother...."Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5: 24).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yea JF, you swoop with a broad brush one singular meaning of that word 'saved'.

You make no distinction between what man is passive in and what man is responsible for.

It is the heart that God has supernaturally written His law upon that produces the fruit which leads unto salvation in this realm. Our salvation does NOT produce the fruit.

I honestly believe much of the problem here is that there are so many Christians nowadays that have never experienced any real bona fide JOY from their salvation.

It's all become a burdensome chore to them.

Brother I have it....God only knows why & how but it is a joy that is unspeakable.... totally changed my life. Your probably right about the falsely saved, but so what? Truly, God saves the sinner to magnify His Glory! Both His power & His mercy are manifest. :godisgood::thumbs:

 

[kyredneck]

Try this Brother...."Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5: 24).

Yes, those that do rely on Him have eternal life, already.

Brother I have it....God only knows why & how but it is a joy that is unspeakable.... totally changed my life. Your probably right about the falsely saved, but so what? Truly, God saves the sinner to magnify His Glory! Both His power & His mercy are manifest. :godisgood::thumbs:

What I said:

"I honestly believe much of the problem here is that there are so many Christians nowadays that have never experienced any real bona fide JOY from their salvation."

I didn't at all mean to imply any were 'falsely saved'.

To me, my salvation here on earth is the best thing that has ever happened to me. I love the Lord, I love His people, I love His word, I can't imagine my life without any of those. I've been very blessed indeed. Sometimes I have to wonder if some here have ever actually taken repose and enjoyed the salvation that He has provided for us. That's all I meant.

 

[jbh28]

These:

"for not the hearers of the law....but the doers of the law shall be justified: (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law,"

"not the hearers...but the doers" is a contrast. some hear the law, but it's only the ones that do. "But be doers of the word, and not hearers only"

An exclamation mark or two and I'm ranting?

No, just a snide comment by me. Sorry about that. I shouldn't' have said that.

No. It's the ground that produces the beans and tomatoes. It's not the beans that produces the tomatoes.

No. James is saying that good ground will produce beans AND tomatoes.[/quote]Let's stick with the Bible. James very clearly teaches that true faith will have works. We are saved by grace through faith and not works. There is faith before works, but works will be there with faith. So in other words, works comes from a heart of faith.

Which came first here, works or faith in Christ?:

Faith. Works play no part of salvation.

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

Read the preceding verses about believing....

regardless, both came about because God has first wrought within.

of course. Salvation is of the Lord. Man doesn't do anything at all to save him self. His faith is a gift from God. His repentance is a gift from God. His good works are a gift from God.

 

[kyredneck]

"not the hearers...but the doers" is a contrast. some hear the law, but it's only the ones that do. "But be doers of the word, and not hearers only"

No, there's no 'contrast' intended here. Paul is stating it very clearly on how it actually is, exactly as Christ is stating it on how it actually is in Luke 10. It wasn't the priest or the Levite who helped the man who had fallen to the robbers. These HAD the law and were HEARERS of the law, yet they DID NOT the law. But, the Samaritan, who neither had the law nor was he a hearer of the law, DID the law by showing compassion on the man who had fallen to the robbers.

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

No, just a snide comment by me. Sorry about that. I shouldn't' have said that.

No problem. I'm very prone to do it myself, I am trying to improve though.

Let's stick with the Bible. James very clearly teaches that true faith will have works. We are saved by grace through faith and not works. There is faith before works, but works will be there with faith. So in other words, works comes from a heart of faith.

Well, actually I thought the beans not producing tomatoes was a pretty good illustration. Could you please pinpoint to me here where you see that James is 'clearly teaching' that faith is the predecessor to works? I don't see it:

15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.
19 Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect;
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God.
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

Faith. Works play no part of salvation.

You do know that it's works and deeds and doing that we're going to be judged by in the end, don't you?

 

[DaChaser1]

No, there's no 'contrast' intended here. Paul is stating it very clearly on how it actually is, exactly as Christ is stating it on how it actually is in Luke 10. It wasn't the priest or the Levite who helped the man who had fallen to the robbers. These HAD the law and were HEARERS of the law, yet they DID NOT the law. But, the Samaritan, who neither had the law nor was he a hearer of the law, DID the law by showing compassion on the man who had fallen to the robbers.

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2



No problem. I'm very prone to do it myself, I am trying to improve though.



Well, actually I thought the beans not producing tomatoes was a pretty good illustration. Could you please pinpoint to me here where you see that James is 'clearly teaching' that faith is the predecessor to works? I don't see it:

15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.
19 Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect;
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God.
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2



You do know that it's works and deeds and doing that we're going to be judged by in the end, don't you?

Christians have ALREADY passed the Judgement of God, and have passed from death unto life!

Judged by Jesus in order to test the quality of our good works done while on Earth, in eye to eternal rewards/loss of receiving rewards for faithfulness!

NOT in regards to if saved, that already was settled in this life!