Church of the Nazarene vs. Anglican

[glfredrick]

I was a Nazarene pastor and my degree is a Nazarene school. I would choose neither. The disagreements are not small and they do concern essential issues.

I would talk to the area or state SBC association and see if you can get help on a church plant in your area.

But, he cannot, for the SBC and other Baptists disavow the concept of God being rooted expressly in love, ala Rob Bell and others who are a new wave of the age-old liberal Protestant.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I was a Nazarene pastor and my degree is a Nazarene school. I would choose neither. The disagreements are not small and they do concern essential issues.

I would talk to the area or state SBC association and see if you can get help on a church plant in your area.

There are plenty of SBC churches around here; no need to start another one! I would find it difficult to be a Southern Baptist now since they have made the BF&M into a creed. Also, I don't believe the OSAS doctrine.

If there was a General Baptist church near me, I would go there.

What disagreements do you have with the Nazarenes?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

But, he cannot, for the SBC and other Baptists disavow the concept of God being rooted expressly in love, ala Rob Bell and others who are a new wave of the age-old liberal Protestant.

Oh, no, we wouldn't want to think that God is love.

 

[The Biblicist]

Oh, no, we wouldn't want to think that God is love.

There is no such thing as UNDEFINED love and God's love is defined by the Holy characteristics of His Law. That is why John can say "THIS IS the love of God that ye keep his commandments" and why Paul can say "love is the fulfilling of the law." That is not to say that love is legalism but it is RIGHTEOUS and the law reflects the righteous character of God. The righteous character of God is revealed in the incarnate Jesus Christ.

 

[glfredrick]

There are plenty of SBC churches around here; no need to start another one! I would find it difficult to be a Southern Baptist now since they have made the BF&M into a creed. Also, I don't believe the OSAS doctrine.

If there was a General Baptist church near me, I would go there.

What disagreements do you have with the Nazarenes?

BF&M a creed? You are out of your mind. :BangHead:

About OSAS, neither do most biblically accurate Baptists. The Bible doesn't say that. It does, however, say that we must be born again from above and that those who persevere until the end will be saved. It also says that no one will snatch us out of His hand. It says as well that we are adopted as sons, joint heirs with Christ.

Not sure how one gets unborn, un-adopted, lose our God-given inheritance, or become un-saved, thus removing us from God's hand, but evidently you know a way.

 

[glfredrick]

Oh, no, we wouldn't want to think that God is love.

Does God not also posess other attributes, or is it only love?

I guess you disavow those words within the pages of the Bible that speak about God's judgment -- even when they are in the NT. I recall that one of your recent threads was on that fact, right?

 

[Amy.G]

Not sure how one gets unborn, un-adopted, lose our God-given inheritance, or become un-saved, thus removing us from God's hand, but evidently you know a way.

I want to add something to this. Not only would one have to be unborn, he would have to die spiritually wouldn't he? It is God who gives life, and only God can take away that life. Therefore you can't commit spiritual suicide.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I want to add something to this. Not only would one have to be unborn, he would have to die spiritually wouldn't he? It is God who gives life, and only God can take away that life. Therefore you can't commit spiritual suicide.

You nailed it Amy....100%. after reading your commentary, I found this encounter between Charles Simeon & John Wesley, led by Simeon:

Sir, I understand that you are called an Arminian; and I have been sometimes called a Calvinist; and therefore I suppose we are to draw daggers. But before I consent to begin the combat, with your permission I will ask you a few questions. Pray, Sir, do you feel yourself a depraved creature, so depraved that you would never have thought of turning to God, if God had not first put it into your heart?

JW: Yes, I do indeed.

And do you utterly despair of recommending yourself to God by anything you can do; and look for salvation solely through the blood and righteousness of Christ?

JW: Yes, solely through Christ.

But, Sir, supposing you were at first saved by Christ, are you not somehow or other to save yourself afterwards by your own works?

JW: No, I must be saved by Christ from first to last.

Allowing, then, that you were first turned by the grace of God, are you not in some way or other to keep yourself by your own power?

JW: No.

What then, are you to be upheld every hour and every moment by God, as much as an infant in its mother’s arms?

JW: Yes, altogether.

And is all your hope in the grace and mercy of God to preserve you unto His heavenly kingdom?

JW: Yes, I have no hope but in Him.

Then, Sir, with your leave I will put up my dagger again; for this is all my Calvinism; this is my election my justification by faith, my final perseverance: it is in substance all that I hold, and as I hold it; and therefore, if you please, instead of searching out terms and phrases to be a ground of contention between us, we will cordially unite in those things where in we agree.

 

[steaver]

I have attended Jehovah's Witness Bible studies.

Just curious, why? Was it to help them out of their lost religion? Or was this before you learned they were not Christian?

What did you learn from them? I am always interested in first hand experience for this is how we really know what is being taught by these religions.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

There is no such thing as UNDEFINED love and God's love is defined by the Holy characteristics of His Law. That is why John can say "THIS IS the love of God that ye keep his commandments" and why Paul can say "love is the fulfilling of the law." That is not to say that love is legalism but it is RIGHTEOUS and the law reflects the righteous character of God. The righteous character of God is revealed in the incarnate Jesus Christ.

I can agree with you on this.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

BF&M a creed? You are out of your mind. :BangHead:

About OSAS, neither do most biblically accurate Baptists. The Bible doesn't say that. It does, however, say that we must be born again from above and that those who persevere until the end will be saved. It also says that no one will snatch us out of His hand. It says as well that we are adopted as sons, joint heirs with Christ.

Not sure how one gets unborn, un-adopted, lose our God-given inheritance, or become un-saved, thus removing us from God's hand, but evidently you know a way.

I, God, Jesus, the apostles, and the early church. it's called freedom of the will, which we have before, during, and after regeneration.

The BF&M revision contains things that it didn't before the fundies took over. It's about control -- trying to control consciences.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Does God not also posess other attributes, or is it only love?

I guess you disavow those words within the pages of the Bible that speak about God's judgment -- even when they are in the NT. I recall that one of your recent threads was on that fact, right?

I guess you, like some others here, just can't resist putting words in my mouth, right?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I want to add something to this. Not only would one have to be unborn, he would have to die spiritually wouldn't he? It is God who gives life, and only God can take away that life. Therefore you can't commit spiritual suicide.

The early church and the vast majority of Christendom disagree with you, based on their interpretation of the scriptures. Thank God that Calvinism is a small minority of Christianity.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I have a request: Since we all know where we stand on OSAS and eternal security, can we not rehash that and keep posting on it?

I appreciate all replies, but I don't see the need to keep talking about OSAS here.

 

[Amy.G]

The early church and the vast majority of Christendom disagree with you, based on their interpretation of the scriptures. Thank God that Calvinism is a small minority of Christianity.

The "vast" majority?? Do have some statistics on that? Or on the early church for that matter?

From what I've read of your posts, you are in the vast minority on your doctrines simply because your interpretation of scripture is wrong. You believe only the red letters are inspired right?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The "vast" majority?? Do have some statistics on that? Or on the early church for that matter?

From what I've read of your posts, you are in the vast minority on your doctrines simply because your interpretation of scripture is wrong. You believe only the red letters are inspired right?

Is it always the case for fundamentalist Calvinist extremists to misrepresent the views of those they disagree with and put words in their mouths?

My interpretation of scripture is wrong? And you are... God?

Let's see if I can make this simple: Go look up how many Christians there are in the world, and then look up how many Calvinists there are; convert that to a percentage and see what you come up with.

Oh, BTW, I thought you were going to stop responding to me. Change your mind? I thought Calvinists didn't have the free will to do that.

 

[mont974x4]

There are plenty of SBC churches around here; no need to start another one! I would find it difficult to be a Southern Baptist now since they have made the BF&M into a creed. Also, I don't believe the OSAS doctrine.

If there was a General Baptist church near me, I would go there.

What disagreements do you have with the Nazarenes?

In that case, I would suggest going to the Nazarene church. They reject God's ability to keep His children too.

They define sin as only being the willful breaking of a known law of God. This is counter to what Scripture tells us.
They believe you are not a new creation at salvation but are being made into one.
They believe your free will trumps God's sovereignty.
They do not believe the Bible to be holy or to be God's inerrant Word.
They are embracing the mystics and emergent theology (although some brave souls are still fighting this).
They have women preachers.

 

[DHK]

Is it always the case for fundamentalist Calvinist extremists to misrepresent the views of those they disagree with and put words in their mouths?

My interpretation of scripture is wrong? And you are... God?

Let's see if I can make this simple: Go look up how many Christians there are in the world, and then look up how many Calvinists there are; convert that to a percentage and see what you come up with.

Oh, BTW, I thought you were going to stop responding to me. Change your mind? I thought Calvinists didn't have the free will to do that.

AT the present moment Islam out numbers Christianity. It is the fastest growing religion in the world, and in America. According to your logic, because it has the numbers it is right. You should go join Islam then. Majority wins, right?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

AT the present moment Islam out numbers Christianity. It is the fastest growing religion in the world, and in America. According to your logic, because it has the numbers it is right. You should go join Islam then. Majority wins, right?

You, too, huh? Is this a character flaw in those of your position?

What I was speaking to is that Calvinists are so belligerently sure that they and only they are right, that their beliefs and interpretations are the only ones that can be substantiated from scripture, and that everyone else is thus apostate.

Somehow I just believe that there were true Christians before Calvin.

 

[mont974x4]

We just have the audacity to take God at His Word and rest in it with confidence in a Father who loves us and keeps us.