Church of the Nazarene vs. Anglican

[glfredrick]

I believe you may well be right about Wesley -- that he had a head knowledge but not a heart knowledge before he met that Moravian.

Amazing that I can agree with you occasionally while disagreeing with you so strongly at other times. Must be something wrong with one of us.

As you learn more and come to discover that you may not have ALL the information that you need to make a truly educated decision on the issues before you, you may find yourself agreeing with me more and more.

I too have come out of a varied background, including Catholicism (mother and all her family), Lutheranism (father and all his family, including my early life), Methodism (wife and many of her family, I converted to them to be married), Atheism (what I turned to once I decided that all religion was just that -- religion, patently false, does not work, IS NOT GOD), and finally, a true born-again-from-above salvation that occured apart from the influence of any particular church or individual. It was God and me, He using circumstances and a word here and there that He caused me to hear, all of which turned my HARD-HARD heart (I was the person who would happily arrange the meeting with God for all those persons who thought that He was -- just hand me a machine gun or gernade) to Himself as if child's play (which for Him, it was!).

I now, by His utter grace and sovereign desire, am a seminary grad and a pastor who starts new churches, grows existing congregations, researches in missiology, and who also has a facination with historical theology because therein I find virtually all of the mistakes made by those trying to rip apart God's work and God's kingdom, and the mistakes are repeated often, including in the here and now.

 

[The Biblicist]

Sanctifying grace begins simultaneous with justification and regeneration which also may have a growth process

Both justification and regeneration are spoken of as completed actions. Paul uses the perfect and Aorist tenses in reference to justification (Rom. 5:1-2). The new birth is described as an act of creation (Eph. 2:10a; 2 Cor. 5:17; Col. 3:10; Eph. 4:24; 2 Cor. 4:6) which is instanteous and completed.

However, the progressive work of sanctification has its source of power in the indwelling Spirit and its source of righteousness in the new inward man which is created in true holiness and righteousness (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) there is evidential progressive justification and quickening. From this inward man originates the intent and desire to do good while from the indwelling Spirit originates the power to perform that intent and desire in the manifest life of the Christian. It is the holy Spirit that empowers the "will" for good so that the Christian is enabled to "do" good - or as Paul puts it, "For it God that worketh in you both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure" - Philip. 2:13.

For example, David in various Psalms speaks about being "quickened" so that he can bring to fruition the performance of the Word of God in his life. This repetitive quickening is the same as being "filled" with the Spirit in the New Testament and results in the ability to "WALK in the Spirit" for those who "LIVE in the Spirit."

James refers to evidential justification in connection with true spiritual life. Paul deals with this in Romans 6 where he denies that justification occurs without regenerative/resurrective life. He says we have been made "free" from sin judicially as the Greek term translated "free" is the very exact term previously used in Romans 3:24-5:2 translated "justified" by the death of Christ.

However, in the act of water baptism the believer identifies not only with the death of Christ to sin but with the resurrected life of Christ equally (Rom. 6:4-5). Hence, there is no such thing as a justified but unregenerated child of God. That does not mean they are one and the same but they are inseparable. We are justified WITHOUT WORKS but regeneration is NOT WITHOUT WORKS (Eph. 2:10). Evidential justification is justification manifested in the life of the believer through regenerative life. Therefore, James can challenge those who say they have been justified to "SHOW ME" justification without works but he will SHOW YOU justification through his works. Where there is true justification by faith without works there is regenerative life manifested by works.

However, that evidential justification manifested through regenerative life of works is only made manifest as we are progressively quickened by the Spirit = filled by the Spirit = "walking in the Spirit" or else what is manifested is the works of the flesh or what James goes on in James 3 to describe as the wisdom from beneath that produces a manifest life of "aduterers and adultresses" in James 4.

The "adultresses" and "aduterers" is by context a metaphorical description of the fruits of the flesh being manifested in the life of a believer. Hence, it is an unholy union of the believer with the works of the flesh.

4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

James 4:5 says the same thing as Galatians 5:16 and Romans 7:14-25. We have an inward warefare between two antagonistic natures that requires mortifying the deeds of the flesh through yeilding to the power of the Holy Spirit to quicken us, make us alive to God's Word in the performance of our lives - our daily walk.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

We know full well how many testify to sinning everyday and that one cannot help but sin, so I wonder when they sing Amazing Grace? Do they sing it right before sinning, while they are sinning or after they finish their daily sin business? Just wondering. One might say, does singing it do them any practical good in their life? Do the words of the song encourage them to live above sin, or is it simply just something to sooth a damaged conscience? Maybe the more one sins the more grace abounds, so lets all sin that grace may abound more and more?

I seem to recall a verse about that.


Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

And to think some on this list might well reply to Paul, "But Paul, we have to sin and obey the lusts thereof. Anyone that says or even thinks he could not allow sin to reign is a liar. Who do you think we are? God?'

 

[DaChaser1]

A wonderfu song, yes indeed.:godisgood:

By the way, who mentioned Wesley in this discussion? I simply posted Scriptures and gave my comments on them.

Who mentioned Wesley? I simply posted Scripture and gave my own comments on them. Do you think Wesley was the first one to receive or teach a deeper infilling of the Spirit subsequent to salvation?

No, but one of the most prominent/well known!

problem is that there is NO deeper infilling of the Holy Spirit in the Bible, rather its just daily yielding and submitting to His enabling power, all christians have same opportunity to do that!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

A question keeps going through my mind. After reading thousands of posts from those in either Calvinistic denominations or denominations following hard after Calvinism, and adhering on many occasions testimonies either stating or implying that they as a believer sin every day in thought word and deed, I have never to my knowledge ever heard one individual within those groups mentioned above even question the validity or reasonableness of such a testimony. Why is that? Is there anyone on this list that would so be so brave as to deny such a testimony being a reality in their own life personally, or simply set forth disagreement to such a testimony by concluding that is not, or that should not be, characteristic of the testimony of a Christian claiming to love God and his law?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

As you learn more and come to discover that you may not have ALL the information that you need to make a truly educated decision on the issues before you, you may find yourself agreeing with me more and more.

I too have come out of a varied background, including Catholicism (mother and all her family), Lutheranism (father and all his family, including my early life), Methodism (wife and many of her family, I converted to them to be married), Atheism (what I turned to once I decided that all religion was just that -- religion, patently false, does not work, IS NOT GOD), and finally, a true born-again-from-above salvation that occured apart from the influence of any particular church or individual. It was God and me, He using circumstances and a word here and there that He caused me to hear, all of which turned my HARD-HARD heart (I was the person who would happily arrange the meeting with God for all those persons who thought that He was -- just hand me a machine gun or gernade) to Himself as if child's play (which for Him, it was!).

I now, by His utter grace and sovereign desire, am a seminary grad and a pastor who starts new churches, grows existing congregations, researches in missiology, and who also has a facination with historical theology because therein I find virtually all of the mistakes made by those trying to rip apart God's work and God's kingdom, and the mistakes are repeated often, including in the here and now.

(see bolded part) I highly doubt that. Almost everything I now believe, I have come to a long time ago and am firm in it. Of course learning should be lifelong, and it will be with me, but the journey has already been long and full of struggle to get to where I am presently.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Both justification and regeneration are spoken of as completed actions. Paul uses the perfect and Aorist tenses in reference to justification (Rom. 5:1-2). The new birth is described as an act of creation (Eph. 2:10a; 2 Cor. 5:17; Col. 3:10; Eph. 4:24; 2 Cor. 4:6) which is instanteous and completed.

I only meant to say that the process leading to justification was for me gradual and that I could not point to a definite time when it was completed.

However, the progressive work of sanctification has its source of power in the indwelling Spirit and its source of righteousness in the new inward man which is created in true holiness and righteousness (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) there is evidential progressive justification and quickening. From this inward man originates the intent and desire to do good while from the indwelling Spirit originates the power to perform that intent and desire in the manifest life of the Christian. It is the holy Spirit that empowers the "will" for good so that the Christian is enabled to "do" good - or as Paul puts it, "For it God that worketh in you both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure" - Philip. 2:13.

For example, David in various Psalms speaks about being "quickened" so that he can bring to fruition the performance of the Word of God in his life. This repetitive quickening is the same as being "filled" with the Spirit in the New Testament and results in the ability to "WALK in the Spirit" for those who "LIVE in the Spirit."

James refers to evidential justification in connection with true spiritual life. Paul deals with this in Romans 6 where he denies that justification occurs without regenerative/resurrective life. He says we have been made "free" from sin judicially as the Greek term translated "free" is the very exact term previously used in Romans 3:24-5:2 translated "justified" by the death of Christ.

However, in the act of water baptism the believer identifies not only with the death of Christ to sin but with the resurrected life of Christ equally (Rom. 6:4-5). Hence, there is no such thing as a justified but unregenerated child of God. That does not mean they are one and the same but they are inseparable. We are justified WITHOUT WORKS but regeneration is NOT WITHOUT WORKS (Eph. 2:10). Evidential justification is justification manifested in the life of the believer through regenerative life. Therefore, James can challenge those who say they have been justified to "SHOW ME" justification without works but he will SHOW YOU justification through his works. Where there is true justification by faith without works there is regenerative life manifested by works.

However, that evidential justification manifested through regenerative life of works is only made manifest as we are progressively quickened by the Spirit = filled by the Spirit = "walking in the Spirit" or else what is manifested is the works of the flesh or what James goes on in James 3 to describe as the wisdom from beneath that produces a manifest life of "aduterers and adultresses" in James 4.

The "adultresses" and "aduterers" is by context a metaphorical description of the fruits of the flesh being manifested in the life of a believer. Hence, it is an unholy union of the believer with the works of the flesh.

4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

James 4:5 says the same thing as Galatians 5:16 and Romans 7:14-25. We have an inward warefare between two antagonistic natures that requires mortifying the deeds of the flesh through yeilding to the power of the Holy Spirit to quicken us, make us alive to God's Word in the performance of our lives - our daily walk.

See my reply, in red, to the bolded part of your post, above.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

A question keeps going through my mind. After reading thousands of posts from those in either Calvinistic denominations or denominations following hard after Calvinism, and adhering on many occasions testimonies either stating or implying that they as a believer sin every day in thought word and deed, I have never to my knowledge ever heard one individual within those groups mentioned above even question the validity or reasonableness of such a testimony. Why is that? Is there anyone on this list that would so be so brave as to deny such a testimony being a reality in their own life personally, or simply set forth disagreement to such a testimony by concluding that is not, or that should not be, characteristic of the testimony of a Christian claiming to love God and his law?

As one who is not Calvinist but affirms what the General Baptists believe, I should let those of Calvinist persuasion answer you.

 

[The Biblicist]

We know full well how many testify to sinning everyday and that one cannot help but sin, so I wonder when they sing Amazing Grace?

May I ask you a question? Are you completely satisified with yourself? Do you ever feel that you have measured up to God's own righteousness and there is nothing to improve? Or do you feel you always COME SHORT of God perfection?

If you do not feel you ever measure up to God's own righteousness and thus "come short of the glory of God" then you are admitting to being a sinner by NATURE as coming short of that glory IS SIN!

If you feel you do equal the righteousness of God and therefore there is nothing you come short in being like God then you are to be worshipped by the rest of us.

Do they sing it right before sinning, while they are sinning or after they finish their daily sin business? Just wondering.

Actually the song repudiates your theology! Did you realize that? The Song exalts "amazing grace" not because he was sinless but IN SPITE OF HIS SINFUL CONDITION and UNMERITED state God justified him by what Christ did for someone UNDESERVING like him. You see "grace" does not admit to your own PERSONAL worthiness but in spite of your own personal UNWORTHINESS God saves and keeps you by his grace.

Maybe the more one sins the more grace abounds, so lets all sin that grace may abound more and more?

You are attempting to deny a truth by defining it by an untruth. It is true that where sin abounded grace did much more abound. However, because all justified persons are also regenerated persons it is not true that any regenerated person has the attitude to sin that grace may more abound. You are intentionally perverting not only our position but the scriptures as you pitting Romans 6:1 against Romans 5:20. You don't understand or accept Romans 5:20 so you pervert it by making it equal to Romans 6:1.

I seem to recall a verse about that.


Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Paul has spent Romans 3:24-5:22 teaching about the doctrine of justification by imputed righteousness (Rom. 3:24-5:1) provided by the respresentative Person and work of Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:12-22).

His death on the cross satisfied sin and removed us from under the curse of the law as Romans 7:1-5 spells out. Hence, representatively we died to sin when Christ died for sin and thus are judicially/justified "free" from sin (Rom. 6:7). The Greek term translated "free" in verse 7 is the same word consistently translated "justified" in Romans 3:24-5:1 and refers to our POSITIONAL and LEGAL freedom from sin.

His resurrection from the grave was a life free from sin and it is through the resurrected life of Christ as empowered by the indwelling Holy Spirit that we can have victory over indwelling sin as his resurrected life is not subject to the power of sin.

In baptism we publicly identify with both his death to sin and His resurrection life. True believers are both justified and regenerated and therefore are "free" from the LEGAL DOMINION OF SIN and "free" from the indwelling power of Sin as they by faith "RECKON" themselves legally dead to sin and "YEILD" to the Indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 6:11-13).

And to think some on this list might well reply to Paul, "But Paul, we have to sin and obey the lusts thereof. Anyone that says or even thinks he could not allow sin to reign is a liar. Who do you think we are? God?'

A complete distortion of not only our position but of the scriptures. The Scriptures admit that we ARE sinners by our unredeemed nature - the flesh but never says "we have to sin and obey the lusts therefore" but says instead "we have the indwelling Spirit of Christ and do not have to fulfill the lusts of the flesh" IF and AS LONG as we "reckon ourselves dead to sin" and "yeild" to the power of the indwelling Spirit of God to "moritfy the deeds of the flesh."

What you have done by your interpretation is reverse our position from "O WRETCHED man that I am" to "O HAPPY MAN that I am in sin." You are intentionally perverting both our position and the Biblical teaching and YOU KNOW IT - because you have NEVER EVER READ from any of us that WE DELIGHT IN SIN but that is exactly how you portray our position and attitude toward sin - that is lying.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DaChaser1: problem is that there is NO deeper infilling of the Holy Spirit in the Bible,

HP: I seem to recall an 'upper room' experience in the first part of Acts. I am not suggesting that everything that happened in that upper room is to be expected upon receiving a deeper infilling of the Holy Spirit, but that incident was certainly one such instance without question in my mind. It changed men from weak individuals to bold proclaimers of the gospel without fear or favor, willing to offer their life as a sacrifice for the God they served.

 

[The Biblicist]

See my reply, in red, to the bolded part of your post, above.

The bible teaches repeatedly that justification is completed by faith in the gospel. Faith is not a progressive action but as Paul and Silas presents it in an AORIST TENSE contrast to the PRESENT TENSE question of the Jailor,


"Sirs what must I KEEP ON DOING in order to be saved"?

They replied "believe" and that shalt be SAVED!

As long as you are in the process of coming to the point where you embrace Christ you are lost, unjustified and simply being dealt with but not justified.

Either you believe or you don't - there is no third position.

 

[DaChaser1]

HP: I seem to recall an 'upper room' experience in the first part of Acts. I am not suggesting that everything that happened in that upper room is to be expected upon receiving a deeper infilling of the Holy Spirit, but that incident was certainly one such instance without question in my mind. It changed men from weak individuals to bold proclaimers of the gospel without fear or favor, willing to offer their life as a sacrifice for the God they served.

THAT experience was unique to the Apostles and others with them!

HS came in a new/special fashion on pentacost, and those tonguesand signs were in fulfillment of OT prophecies and to show that Church age was now begun!

Under the new Covenant of God now...


ALL christians today have SAME amount of the HS indwelling them, its just based uopon HOW much of us He has, IF we have chosen to yield to His empowering, or deciding to walk in the flesh instead!

 

[DaChaser1]

The bible teaches repeatedly that justification is completed by faith in the gospel. Faith is not a progressive action but as Paul and Silas presents it in an AORIST TENSE contrast to the PRESENT TENSE question of the Jailor,


"Sirs what must I KEEP ON DOING in order to be saved"?

They replied "believe" and that shalt be SAVED!

As long as you are in the process of coming to the point where you embrace Christ you are lost, unjustified and simply being dealt with but not justified.

Either you believe or you don't - there is no third position.

We are just justified before God moment receive the work/act of jesus, believe on him to get saved...

After that, becoming conformed into exact image of jesus takes entire life, and finished by God once we are glorified!

 

[The Biblicist]

We are just justified before God moment receive the work/act of jesus, believe on him to get saved...

After that, becoming conformed into exact image of jesus takes entire life, and finished by God once we are glorified!

That is what I said is it not? It is instantaneous at the point of faith in the gospel.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The bible teaches repeatedly that justification is completed by faith in the gospel. Faith is not a progressive action but as Paul and Silas presents it in an AORIST TENSE contrast to the PRESENT TENSE question of the Jailor,


"Sirs what must I KEEP ON DOING in order to be saved"?

They replied "believe" and that shalt be SAVED!

As long as you are in the process of coming to the point where you embrace Christ you are lost, unjustified and simply being dealt with but not justified.

Either you believe or you don't - there is no third position.

I agree, so I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm saying I can't remember a specific moment when I was born again; I was so young that I don't have a memory of it. I can only remember always believing. As far back as I can remember, I believed in and trusted Jesus.

 

[steaver]

I agree, so I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm saying I can't remember a specific moment when I was born again; I was so young that I don't have a memory of it. I can only remember always believing. As far back as I can remember, I believed in and trusted Jesus.

Praise God you were exposed to the gospel at such a young age! How old are you now Mike? Was wondering if you ever experienced this "saved then lost" doctrine you speak of existing?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Praise God you were exposed to the gospel at such a young age! How old are you now Mike? Was wondering if you ever experienced this "saved then lost" doctrine you speak of existing?

I just turned 57.

I'm not sure if I ever turned completely away from God. When I was about 20, I began to question everything, and this went on for three years or so. I became an agnostic briefly -- or so I thought. Maybe, though, I was just rejecting the Calvinist concept of God. What brought me back was my discovery of the original Quakerism of George Fox. And then I remember watching the movie, Jesus of Nazareth, starring Robert Powell; that movie made Jesus real to me in a way that He hadn't been in a long time.

So, was I ever lost during that time? I can't say for sure. I don't know if I ever went through a conscious willful rejection of Jesus; looking back now, I don't believe I did. I know it makes no sense to say I was an agnostic, but then say what I just did, but somehow I think I more so rejected the concept of God and Christ that I had, rather than the real Jesus Himself.

Hope that answers your question in some way.

 

[glfredrick]

A question keeps going through my mind. After reading thousands of posts from those in either Calvinistic denominations or denominations following hard after Calvinism, and adhering on many occasions testimonies either stating or implying that they as a believer sin every day in thought word and deed, I have never to my knowledge ever heard one individual within those groups mentioned above even question the validity or reasonableness of such a testimony. Why is that? Is there anyone on this list that would so be so brave as to deny such a testimony being a reality in their own life personally, or simply set forth disagreement to such a testimony by concluding that is not, or that should not be, characteristic of the testimony of a Christian claiming to love God and his law?

Because we are brave enough to admit our own sin instead of hiding it behind a huge ego and a couple of Bible verses ripped out of context. While we STRIVE to live a life that is sinless, we also realize that we can sin even when we don't know we are sinning, and as such, our ONLY HOPE is Christ's imputed righteousness -- which is only ours when HE does the work of salvation, for there is no way we can impute to us what is not ours to impute.

 

[glfredrick]

(see bolded part) I highly doubt that. Almost everything I now believe, I have come to a long time ago and am firm in it. Of course learning should be lifelong, and it will be with me, but the journey has already been long and full of struggle to get to where I am presently.

I would offer that you have probably studied what appealed to you based on your several a priori presuppositions, and what you have studied only leads you deeper into the abyss.

When I read some of your stuff I realize that you are a reasonable seeker and that you are also a very human individual who hopes to love in faith, worship God, etc., and yet you take up positions that are completely antithetical to the Scriptures from beginning to end. That seems incoherent and inconsistent. It seems like your study has led you down roads where persons take up and disagree with mainstream belief in the Christian realm. It seems that you have furthered those beliefs with further study in that same direction, as if once your path was set you could not or would not veer off to see another direction, and so you now find yourself a man without a church BECAUSE NONE ARE RIGHT ENOUGH. What a travesty, when God has given His own Son who WILL BUILD HIS CHURCH.

Somehow, with your efforts at study, you have turned 180* what actually happened and what was actually held as doctrine.

 

[glfredrick]

HP: I seem to recall an 'upper room' experience in the first part of Acts. I am not suggesting that everything that happened in that upper room is to be expected upon receiving a deeper infilling of the Holy Spirit, but that incident was certainly one such instance without question in my mind. It changed men from weak individuals to bold proclaimers of the gospel without fear or favor, willing to offer their life as a sacrifice for the God they served.

That was the initial sending of the Holy Spirit as Christ promised.