Featured Election

Well Amy, look again.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Amy, we are chosen "in him". You are not chosen outside of Christ, but when you are "in Christ".

That did not happen before the foundation of the world, nobody was "in Christ" before the foundation of the world.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Notice that Paul says Andronicus and Junia were "in Christ BEFORE me". A person is not in Christ until they actually believe on Jesus and are baptized by the Spirit into his body.

Then how could God choose us "in him" before the foundation of the world? FOREKNOWLEDGE. God could see who would believe on Jesus in time, he could see those "in him" and he chose them.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Amy, you have to put the scriptures together. Ephesians 1:4 says we were chosen "in him". We learn from Romans 16:7 that people become "in Christ" in time when they believe. We then see in 1 Pet 1:2 that we are elect or chosen according to God's foreknowledge. That is, God could see before the foundation of the world who who believe on Jesus and be "in him" and chose them at that time.

 

This as written is a falsehood.

Reformed theology offers the gospel to whosoever will. Those who cannot grasp it make this false charge.

No.....He has purposed to save individuals.....while they were yet sinners.

There you go.....in his mind..it is up to us....he is speaking of natural faith that we work up.....Biblical saving faith is of the Lord.....it is not natural,but supernatural...

No....our names individually are written in the book of life.

I have warned you before Qf...you are placing yourself in danger...be careful friend.....npp deny the gospel

 

I mean you no disrespect Icon, but given Dr. Craig's scholarship vs. yours, well I would have to be much more likely to agree with him.

NPP (as a whole) does not deny the gospel. That is "ICON Perspective" on NPP.

 

Amy, which scriptures convinced you we are born sinners?

 

:godisgood::jesus:

 

You do realize that you're saying God chose those who did better than others, don't you?

 

Winman......

You are totally perverting the text....it is you who need to read it again...not AMYG.

No one learns this from rom 16...except you and Van....
All were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world...when some one believed before Paul did...it just revealed them to be elect when the Spirit indwelled them. Jesus had already died for them.

next error;

Every single elect person was elected IN Christ before the foundation of the world....Every single one were elected and given to the Son. The Son than is sent to redeem them...every single one......Any other teaching here is a deliberate falsehood.

This unbiblically garbage being repeated over and over does not make it so.
God purposes to save a multitude of sinners...he does not need to "see" who would believe...he already "saw"............ no one would.

he does not see man elect God...men reject God...but He elects sinners and draws those elected sinners to saving faith.

 

I know all I ever do is quote Spurgeon, but might as well...

 

Amy, NPP is shorthand for New Perspectives on Paul. Some, like Icon, view anything associated with NPP in much the same way they see OT (Open Theology). NPP is a broad stream, not a narrow ditch. Even one of the world's renown reformed theologians (NT Wright) identifies, at least tangentially with NPP.

 

QF....
You are "free" to do as you please....I will keep my scholarship and those who I have learned from as compared to DR.Craig's heresy.....Shelby Spong and his learning have led him into apostasy.He was consider a scholar.
I do not claim to be anything but a sinner saved by grace. I know I am not that smart...but that has caused me to seek those that are much wiser and more gifted than I am. I learn from them.
Dr. Craig....has totally missed the passage, and for all of his supposed learning, he does not understand reformed theology.....
If at truck driver can see it.....maybe DR.Craig needs to take another look at it......Many have examined NPP...they have spotted it as heresy..not even open for debate.....I offered you those sermons and books...if you do not want to look..that is on you my friend.

QF....no need to lecture me about Dr.Craig.....if he does not understand reformed theology...he has nothing to even discuss with me...he can take it to the judgement with him.... I will stick with all the brothers who see the grace of God monergistically.......you can keep you synergy, npp, and open theism...all wrapped up as a package......having seen them prsent a works gospel...they are anathema to me:thumbsup: Be careful my friend...very careful.....i can only caution you.

Ps. Dr. Craig might be very learned in certain areas....I only see him mentioned as an opponent to God;s grace. I really do not know that much about him overall, I know that many do respect him.
Like Wayne Grudem, who is completely off on the gifts...yet many seem to like him...I have no use for him...life is too short and there are too many other works that are solid to consider defiling my mind with wrong ideas.

 

Let's look at those scriptures.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Do these verses specifically say you are born evil? No. They say we have all gone "out" of the way. How can you go "out" of the way unless you were originally "in" the way? For example, how can you go "out" of your house unless you were first "in" your house? Verse 12 also says we are altogether "become" unprofitable. If you were born a sinner, then you didn't "become" unprofitable, you were always unprofitable. If you were born rich, you would not tell someone you "became" rich would you? But what if you were poor and now are rich? Wouldn't you tell someone you were poor but "became" rich?

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Does this verse say you were born dead in sin? No, it does not say one word about birth. It says death passed upon all men "for that" or "because" all have sinned. Do babies sin? The scriptures say NO.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

This is the same writer, Paul, just a few chapters later. He describes Jacob and Esau when they were very much alive in their mother Rebecca's womb. Did he say they were sinners? NO, he said they had done no evil.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

David was not speaking about original sin in this verse, he had been confessing his sin with Bathsheba. He had repeatedly confessed his sin in the first four verses.

Psa 51:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.


Notice how often David confesses his personal sin. It would make no sense to suddenly blame his birth for his known and willing sin.

Many scholars believe David was speaking of being slightly less than legitimate at birth. His mother (who was Jewish) was very likely either married, or had relations with a non-Jew before David was born.

1 Chron 2:15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh:
16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three.

Notice David had two sisters named Zeruiah and Abigail. These two sisters are mentioned in scripture as the daughters of Nahash who was a Ammonite (a Gentile).

2 Sam 17:25 And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab's mother.

Notice Abigail was the daughter of Nahash, and the sister of Zeruiah. So apparently David's mother had either been married to a non-Jew or been a concubine of a non-Jew and bore David's sisters Zeruiah and Abigail. For this reason David's mother was considered polluted. And many scholars believe this is what David is speaking of in Psa 51:5. It is also noteworthy that when Samuel came to Jesse and asked to see all his sons, that twice Jesse refused to present David. Samuel had to press Jesse before he brought David forward.

1 Sam 16:10 Again, Jesse made seven of his sons to pass before Samuel. And Samuel said unto Jesse, The LORD hath not chosen these.
11 And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.
12 And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he.



So twice Jesse presented his sons to Samuel but excluded David. Samuel asked if Jesse had any other sons besides the seven presented, and Jesse admitted there was another who was keeping the sheep. This was David. And note how David's appearance is mentioned, his brothers were of tall stature, but David was small and ruddy. This is because he had a different mother from his brothers, who had borne children to Nahash the Ammonite. So, David was not favoured by his father or brothers, he was the "black sheep" of the family.

So, this is very likely what David is speaking of, being born of a woman who was not considered "pure".

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

First, this verse is not speaking of all men, but "the wicked". Second, it is hyperbole or exaggeration. No babies can speak when they are born. Third, lying involves intent. A baby cannot form the intent to lie, a baby does not even understand what a lie is.

Fourthly, if you take this verse as literal, you have to take the following verses as literal.

Psa 58:4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.
8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.


Are babies poisonous like a snake? Do babies have great teeth like a young lion? Do babies melt like a snail?

And lastly, would David be praying that all babies everywhere melt like a snail?

So, these verses are obvious hyperbole and should not be taken literally. They certainly should not be used to form doctrine. And David was not speaking of all men, but "the wicked".

Amy, it is obvious you have either listening to or reading Calvinist doctrine. You are falling for their proof-texts which are pulled out of context and do not really say what Calvinism says they are saying. None of these scriptures say a man is born dead in sin.

 

Good Post Brother:thumbsup::thumbsup::applause:

 

Icon, do you listen to YOURSELF, I personally am growing a bit disillusioned with your continued careless use of adjectives with the obvious intent of being inflammatory. (i.e. heresy) I caution you to be careful.